It seems all religious books suffers from differences in terms of manuscripts and newer versions

[morphesium]

Preservation of the Holy Quran never depended on written texts to preserve it.
It was revealed to a culture that relied on human memory to preserve and pass on knowledge in a region where resources were hard come by on which to preserve texts. Arabs were famous for their ability to remember their genealogy and history without texts, like the native Australians, African and Americans who also had few if any texts.

During the lifetime of the Holy Prophet(peace and blessings be on him) many, many believers memorised the whole Quran verbatim. Still today all over the world there are thousands of Muslims who can recite the whole Quran from memory. It's style is such that it is not as difficult as non-Muslims would imagine. If all the existing texts of the Holy Quran were destroyed it would still be possible to recompile it accurately from the memories of those thousands.

This is difficult to imagine in a time and culture where the printed word has held such a high value but humans in the past were capable of much more than we might give them credit for.

As a believing Muslim I also believe that God has aided man in preserving this text as it was revealed to the Holy Prophet(peace and blessings be on him)

what i have been thinking all along is this " why didn't god put an inherent knowledge of Quran in each and every one of us - so that all would be born with Quran in mind?"

 

[Sabour]

what i have been thinking all along is this " why didn't god put an inherent knowledge of Quran in each and every one of us - so that all would be born with Quran in mind?"

They "why didn't god do this" questions are many. I believe studies and analysis should be about the situation it self. Asking these kinds of questions will lead to place because there will always be space for one to ask "why is it this rather than that way".

The Quraan talk about non believers of Islam at the times of the prophets

6:4 And no sign comes to them from the signs of their Lord except that they turn away therefrom.
5 For they had denied the truth when it came to them, but there is going to reach them the news of what they used to ridicule.
6 Have they not seen how many generations We destroyed before them which We had established upon the earth as We have not established you? And We sent [rain from] the sky upon them in showers and made rivers flow beneath them; then We destroyed them for their sins and brought forth after them a generation of others.
7And even if We had sent down to you, [O Muhammad], a written scripture on a page and they touched it with their hands, the disbelievers would say, "This is not but obvious magic."
8 And they say, "Why was there not sent down to him an angel?" But if We had sent down an angel, the matter would have been decided; then they would not be reprieved.

 

[seeking4truth]

what i have been thinking all along is this " why didn't god put an inherent knowledge of Quran in each and every one of us - so that all would be born with Quran in mind?"

1. Maybe He did to some extent OR 2. maybe that would smack too much of compulsion!

 

[icehorse]

Preservation of the Holy Quran never depended on written texts to preserve it.
It was revealed to a culture that relied on human memory to preserve and pass on knowledge in a region where resources were hard come by on which to preserve texts. Arabs were famous for their ability to remember their genealogy and history without texts, like the native Australians, African and Americans who also had few if any texts.

During the lifetime of the Holy Prophet(peace and blessings be on him) many, many believers memorised the whole Quran verbatim. Still today all over the world there are thousands of Muslims who can recite the whole Quran from memory. It's style is such that it is not as difficult as non-Muslims would imagine. If all the existing texts of the Holy Quran were destroyed it would still be possible to recompile it accurately from the memories of those thousands.

This is difficult to imagine in a time and culture where the printed word has held such a high value but humans in the past were capable of much more than we might give them credit for.

As a believing Muslim I also believe that God has aided man in preserving this text as it was revealed to the Holy Prophet(peace and blessings be on him)

"...never depended on written texts...", wow, just wow!

If ever there was a statement that flies in the face of tens of thousands of pieces of evidence, it would be to imply that human memory is reliable, let alone generation upon generation of verbal transference.

==

And that was just the first sentence

 

[seeking4truth]

"...never depended on written texts...", wow, just wow!

If ever there was a statement that flies in the face of tens of thousands of pieces of evidence, it would be to imply that human memory is reliable, let alone generation upon generation of verbal transference.==

And that was just the first sentence

You're talking about recent human experience - after several hundred years of dependency on printed books and even more recently on computer stored information. For thousands of years before that Human memory was the ONLY reliable storehouse of knowledge.

Nowadays people do not even TRY to use their memory, it's become superfluous due to modern technology. God help us when it all breaks down.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Koran differs from the original in the current Koran is an important issue which points on the letters
Arabic letters because the points
This is an important issue
Who put points on the characters in the Koran is the Umayyad Caliph Abdul Malik bin Marwan
For example ha character in the Arabic language and that can be true that Jim X.
Just change the location of the point on the letter
1- ح
2-خ
3ج
The character has the same shape only place point
And also
1-ب
2ت
3- ث
4-ن
and
1-ق
2-ف

 

[icehorse]

You're talking about recent human experience - after several hundred years of dependency on printed books and even more recently on computer stored information. For thousands of years before that Human memory was the ONLY reliable storehouse of knowledge.

Nowadays people do not even TRY to use their memory, it's become superfluous due to modern technology. God help us when it all breaks down.

I agree that for many thousands of years memory was the only mechanism we had. But we should not kid ourselves that it was ever reliable. I agree it was "the most reliable we had" - but it was never terribly reliable.

 

[seeking4truth]

I agree that for many thousands of years memory was the only mechanism we had. But we should not kid ourselves that it was ever reliable. I agree it was "the most reliable we had" - but it was never terribly reliable.

but in the case of the Holy Quran there were hundreds, maybe thousands, who had memorised the same work and so comparisons could be made.

 

[morphesium]

1. Maybe He did to some extent

I believe this could be our morals. it is inherent to all of us and always a head of us. This is the best way for god to give us freewill without interfering with us; It is the best way god can talk to us without showing himself.

OR 2. maybe that would smack too much of compulsion!

As far as our behavior is concerned, there are two things that control it -1. Our brain - its structure and networking. 2. Some chemical that can interfere with our brain and alter our behavior.

Chemicals can make people more aggressive, or more passive, more alert or more numb etc, that what one actually is. If simple chemicals can do this, what about the power of God? He could do anything without getting us compelled.

As far as compulsion is concerned, isn’t there too much (indirect) compulsion in the Muslim world to believe in your religion? Kids are thought about these at a very young age with too much intensity, regularity etc.

One more thing I wish to know is this – If God gave us Quran orally [He definitely could have made Mohammed (PBUH) to write down this – even if Mohammed (PBUH) is illiterate]. That was not done. Did Allah have a reason for this that the followers lost when it was made as a text? Moreover, is there anyone or any sects that still keep on this original tradition of passing this knowledge orally, who has not even seen this text? Just enquiring out of curiosity.

 

[morphesium]

OR 2. maybe that would smack too much of compulsion!

I have one more thing to say here:-

I think almost every religion talks about moderation; moderation in terms of taking excessive food and many other things. Searched google and I was quite fascinated with this website

“The religion (of Islam) is ease, and whoever makes the religion a rigor, it will overpower him. So, follow a middle course; if you can't do this, do something near to it and give glad tidings and seek help (of Allah) at morn and at dusk and some part of night”. (Al-Bukhari)

Keep one moderated from their religion.

Now the greater the compulsion in a religion, the lesser the people will keep it moderated. Today there is a great number of religious extremism in this (Islam) religion. I was just thinking could this be the reason why Quran originally existed verbally.

There was a time when Islam was the light of the world. Took then existing mathematics and science and arts to new dimensions and I believe that growth was all halted due to religious extremism in Islam itself. Had there been no religious extremism, we (the present world) would have been advanced at least by 500 years (2500AD), much of it propelled by the Muslim world. Something definitely went wrong.

 

[Britedream]

One more thing I wish to know is this – If God gave us Quran orally [He definitely could have made Mohammed (PBUH) to write down this – even if Mohammed (PBUH) is illiterate]. That was not done. Did Allah have a reason for this that the followers lost when it was made as a text? Moreover, is there anyone or any sects that still keep on this original tradition of passing this knowledge orally, who has not even seen this text? Just enquiring out of curiosity.

Quran did not come down in sequence, but came down in random verses, and it is written as it came down. So the revelation writers are known to Muslims.

Here is a link that talks about it:
The Writing of the Qur'an

 

[morphesium]

They "why didn't god do this" questions are many. I believe studies and analysis should be about the situation it self. Asking these kinds of questions will lead to place because there will always be space for one to ask "why is it this rather than that way".

Actually, your post made me to search the web and going through the corresponding links - well I think I have more reasons to be happy now and thankyou.

Actually, we have to ask all possible questions one can ask - only that way we can know the truth for it is the forerunner of seeking knowledge. You can't gain further knowledge without asking questions. There are plenty of situations out there that searching for answers in an unrelated field, find solutions to a related field and vice versa. If what this website is true, then these are some sentences from Quran about asking questions and seeking knowledge.

"And they shall say had we but listened or used reason, we would not be among the inmates of the burning fire." (Quran, 67:10)
"Are those who have knowledge and those who have no knowledge alike? Only the men of understanding are mindful. " (Quran, 39:9)

The Qur'an encourages people towards scientific research:.
"And whoso brings the truth and believes therein such are the dutiful." (Quran, 39:33)

Every Muslim man's and every Muslim woman's prayer should be:
"My Lord! Enrich me with knowledge.." (Quran, 20:114)
"Acquire knowledge: it enables its possessor to distinguish right from the wrong, it lights the way to heaven; it is our friend in the desert, our society in solitude, our companion when friendless - it guides us to happiness; it sustains us in misery; it is an ornament among friends and an armor against enemies."

"God has revealed to me, 'Whoever walks in the pursuit of knowledge I facilitate for him the way to heaven."

"The best form of worship is the pursuit of knowledge."

"Seek knowledge and wisdom, or whatever the vessel from which it flows, you will never be the loser."

"Contemplating deeply for one hour (with sincerity) is better than 70 years of (mechanical) worship."

"To listen to the words of the learned and to instill unto others the lessons of science is better than religious exercises."

The Quraan talk about non believers of Islam at the times of the prophets

6:4 And no sign comes to them from the signs of their Lord except that they turn away therefrom.
5 For they had denied the truth when it came to them, but there is going to reach them the news of what they used to ridicule.
6 Have they not seen how many generations We destroyed before them which We had established upon the earth as We have not established you? And We sent [rain from] the sky upon them in showers and made rivers flow beneath them; then We destroyed them for their sins and brought forth after them a generation of others.
7And even if We had sent down to you, [O Muhammad], a written scripture on a page and they touched it with their hands, the disbelievers would say, "This is not but obvious magic."
8 And they say, "Why was there not sent down to him an angel?" But if We had sent down an angel, the matter would have been decided; then they would not be reprieved.

If one studies science, psychology to be precise, then one will find reasons why people believe in various religions the way they do and why some people (non-believers) don't believe in such concepts. There are many reasons why people stick to their religion. If god exists and if it is he who made me the way I am, who wired my brain, why should be i afraid of. When I ask questions and think about it, actually I am worshiping.

"The best form of worship is the pursuit of knowledge."

"Contemplating deeply for one hour (with sincerity) is better than 70 years of (mechanical) worship."

 

[seeking4truth]

Koran differs from the original in the current Koran is an important issue which points on the letters
Arabic letters because the points
This is an important issue
Who put points on the characters in the Koran is the Umayyad Caliph Abdul Malik bin Marwan
For example ha character in the Arabic language and that can be true that Jim X.
Just change the location of the point on the letter
1- ح
2-خ
3ج
The character has the same shape only place point
And also
1-ب
2ت
3- ث
4-ن
and
1-ق
2-ف

What point are you trying to make?

What is the difference in English letters between a and d, between o and c, between p and b, between i and l. The list could go on. In all languages the differences between written letters is minuscule. Have you ever tried to teach a young child to write??

Vowel points were added to the written text of the Holy Quran at a time when many, many non-Arab converts were joining Islam and they needed the aid of vowel points to sound the words correctly.
An Arab speaker would know such things by familiarity with the sounds of the language.

I believe Arabic newspapers produced for Arabic speakers still do not print vowel points today - not needed by Arab speakers.

 

[Sabour]

Actually, your post made me to search the web and going through the corresponding links - well I think I have more reasons to be happy now and thankyou.

Actually, we have to ask all possible questions one can ask - only that way we can know the truth for it is the forerunner of seeking knowledge. You can't gain further knowledge without asking questions. There are plenty of situations out there that searching for answers in an unrelated field, find solutions to a related field and vice versa. If what this website is true, then these are some sentences from Quran about asking questions and seeking knowledge.

​

If one studies science, psychology to be precise, then one will find reasons why people believe in various religions the way they do and why some people (non-believers) don't believe in such concepts. There are many reasons why people stick to their religion. If god exists and if it is he who made me the way I am, who wired my brain, why should be i afraid of. When I ask questions and think about it, actually I am worshiping.

​

Thanks for your input.

My reply was not against knowledge. As you have quoted, Islam and Quraan tells people to seek knowledge. However, I was commenting on the kind of questions of why God did that instead of this. That is not a correct approach because that mentality will lead nowhere. Rather one should engage in studying the whole theology and judging on the facts surrounding it.

That is the way I see it.

 

[icehorse]

For everyone, but specifically for those on this thread who are defending the Quran, can you tell me if your faith is in conflict in any way with the UN Declaration on Human Rights?

What I'm getting at is to wonder what morals and/or ethics you found in the Quran, and how they do or do not match the UNDHR?

 

[morphesium]

Thanks for your input.

My reply was not against knowledge. As you have quoted, Islam and Quraan tells people to seek knowledge. However, I was commenting on the kind of questions of why God did that instead of this. That is not a correct approach because that mentality will lead nowhere. Rather one should engage in studying the whole theology and judging on the facts surrounding it.

That is the way I see it.

A questions irrelevant for one may be relevant for the other. If in seeking knowledge, no stones should be left unturned, then all possible questions should be asked. It is the only way leading to truth.

There are many things with Quran which I agree with and many others that i don't. I agree with the theory of evolution, which Quran doesn't agree with. I can't agree with the concept of "one god" etc, etc.
Moreover,

"The best form of worship is the pursuit of knowledge."

"Contemplating deeply for one hour (with sincerity) is better than 70 years of (mechanical) worship."

You have such strong sentences in Quran, but then why is it the muslim world is contributing far less to the scientific community (at present). What went wrong. A teacher is far greater than an Imam. A good scientist would be much more rewarded than any muslim believers (mechanical worshipers), then why is it .....?

 

[morphesium]

For everyone, but specifically for those on this thread who are defending the Quran, can you tell me if your faith is in conflict in any way with the UN Declaration on Human Rights?

What I'm getting at is to wonder what morals and/or ethics you found in the Quran, and how they do or do not match the UNDHR?

• UNDHR-
  • No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
  • Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

• Quran
  • Torture, rape and everything is accepted . -- punish him with a thousand lashes, cut off limbs, etc.
  • If a muslim changes his religion -- kill him.

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

That during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relation with them without impregnating them. So they asked the Prophet about coitus interruptus. The Prophet said, "It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection." Qaza'a said, "I heard Abu Sa'id saying that the Prophet said, 'No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it."
Sahih Bukhari 9:93:506

 

[paarsurrey]

Is the book well preserved?

Quran is well preserved. There are/were never two Qurans in the world.
Regards

 

[Shad]

Quran is well preserved. There are/were never two Qurans in the world.
Regards

This is false even according to Islamic tradition, there were variant versions. The Sanaa manuscript is just such an example. Read Ibn Mas'ud and Ubayy Ka'b's work, they acknowledge variants as well

 

[paarsurrey]

This is false even according to Islamic tradition, there were variant versions. The Sanaa manuscript is just such an example. Read Ibn Mas'ud and Ubayy Ka'b's work, they acknowledge variants as well

It is simply wrong.
Quran existed in the time of Muhammad; the Revelation was received and completed in 23 years of the ministry of Muhammad; and primarily committed to memory by the Muslims; only as a secondary measure it was also written down by the scribes as dictated to them by Muhammad.
Quran is a systematic Verbal Revelation; learnt by heart, as a sentence or more were revealed on Muhammad by G-d. Muhammad himself committed this Revelation to his memory and from him his companions did. And this system continues forth unimpaired till our times and in future also. Quran was never a written book sent down literally by G-d from the skies. So primarily Quran is a Verbal Revelation as the word “Quran” suggests means and conveys.
It is however the genius of Muhammad (peace be upon him); that though he was himself not well-versed in reading and/or writing, that he felt the importance of writing in the times to come in the world; so side by side as an auxiliary or secondary measure, never as the original in the first place; he also did whatever was possible to record this revelation in writing, so that both always existed supporting one another. This is another meaning; that this Verbal Revelation, having a system in it, in a would-be sense committed to writing was also called a book.
Anybody could go to any mosque in any part of the world to whatever denomination of Muslims, ask for Qari or Hafiz Quran there, he would recite verbally the Quran in Arabic, that would be the same as the written one. Easy to verify the system of preservation of Quran.
Regards