Israel-Gaza : "Netanyahu vows no Palestinian state ..."

[libre]

He referred specifically to those who support the genocide.
Let's not broaden his claim to the point of major inaccuracy.

You may brush off the dehumanization of Jews because Lyndon's s comment implied dehumanization of non-Jewish supporters of Israel as well if you please. Dehumanizing all Jewish supporters of Israel is incredibly dangerous towards all Jews, and that the poster I am replying to may be indiscriminate and wish to dehumanize non-jewish Zionists also doesn't actually do anything to eliminate the danger posed to jews.

Further, Israel currently stands accused of a genocide in Gaza.

The poster I was responding to clearly stated "They're not real human beings if they support what Israel is doing in Gaza and the West Bank".
So his comment was regarding those that support Israel broadly, rather than just the alleged genocide.

Simply unproductive, dangerous and obstructive to dialogue. Antisemitism is real and dangerous and should not be shrugged off.

 

[metis]

Why do you deny your hatred?

I side with Jews and Judaism. And concur with jews, that israel DOES NOT represent Jews or Judaism.

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Israel has done more damage to Jews and the people of Judaism that anything since ww2.

What you are conflating with those pictures is that many of the chasidim ["ultra-orthodox"-- which is a misnomer] do not accept that the state of Israel can be restored until the coming of the Messiah.

 

[Bthoth]

What you are conflating with those pictures is that many of the chasidim ["ultra-orthodox"-- which is a misnomer] do not accept that the state of Israel can be restored until the coming of the Messiah.

SO the religiously observant Jew is not good enough?

What's the reason to even be jew if the religion is not relevant?

 

[Revoltingest]

You may brush off the dehumanization of Jews....

To use dehumanization as an insult of Jews
who support genocide of Palestinians is
reasonable.
We can insult Nazis, Maoists, Stalinists, Islamists,
& Christian Imperialists. Being a Jews doesn't
mean immunity from insults when they perpetrate
evil.

because Lyndon's s comment implied dehumanization of non-Jewish supporters of Israel as well if you please. Dehumanizing all Jewish supporters of Israel is incredibly dangerous towards all Jews, and that the poster I am replying to may be indiscriminate and wish to dehumanize non-jewish Zionists also doesn't actually do anything to eliminate the danger posed to jews.

Further, Israel currently stands accused of a genocide in Gaza.

I say more than merely accused.

The poster I was responding to clearly stated "They're not real human beings if they support what Israel is doing in Gaza and the West Bank".
So his comment was regarding those that support Israel broadly, rather than just the alleged genocide.

Simply unproductive, dangerous and obstructive to dialogue. Antisemitism is real and dangerous and should not be shrugged off.

If Jews get to call use "Anti-semite!" for criticizing
Israel's brutal illegal treatment of Palestinians, then
turnabout is fair play.

 

[libre]

If Jews get to call use "Anti-semite!" for criticizing
Israel's brutal illegal treatment of Palestinians, then
turnabout is fair play.

The existence of apologists who abuse allegations of antisemitism do not eliminate the danger posed by existing antisemitism.
Refusing to recognize antisemitism where it exists plays to the hands of those who abuse allegations of antisemitism, and hurts Palestinian liberation by alienating those affected by antisemitism.

 

[Bthoth]

The existence of apologists who abuse allegations of antisemitism do not eliminate the danger posed by existing antisemitism.

And those apologists can often cause antisemitism (hate for the actual Jew)

Refusing to recognize antisemitism where it exists plays to the hands of those who abuse allegations of antisemitism, and hurts Palestinian liberation by alienating those affected by antisemitism.

Sure, antisemitism is practically a delusional ignorance. Often self proscribed and often mislead. I still do not understand how anyone can hate Jews or Judaism.

The religion enables personal responsibility and the persons of Judaism reflect that self imposed personal responsibility.

Where the damage occurs is conflating Israel to being a representation of Jews and Judaism or the other extreme is allowing people to represent Jews and Judaism and actually could care less about the integrity of the culture and beliefs but use the label.

There should be well defined barriers between what Israel is doing and the Jews of Judaism. To reduce the global antisemitism (hatred of Jews/Judaism).

I actually care and why I hold my head up and willing to face the insults and condemnation in defense of Jews and Judaism.

 

[libre]

And those apologists can often cause antisemitism (hate for the actual Jew)

I don't disagree. More the reason to call out the antisemitism when it appears, rather than becoming desensitized to it and and brushing it off.

Anyone arguing that dehumanizing jews who support Israel is 'fair play' because of the actions of the government ought to be thoroughly rebuked. Dehumanizing plays to the hands of anti-Semites, rather than those who want a just resolution of this conflict.

 

[Bthoth]

I don't disagree.

So an apologist that condemns a person, should be called out to explain how and why.

More the reason to call out the antisemitism when it appears, rather than becoming desensitized to it and and brushing it off.

How often do you identify antisemitism (hate for jews)? Disgust for israel is not anti semitism and the few that sling that term at a person for not approving of israel's actions, is not necessarily against Jews or Judaism but most often directly against the actions of israel.

Anyone arguing that dehumanizing jews who support Israel is 'fair play' because of the actions of the government ought to be thoroughly rebuked.

sure it's fair play to discount any person that will dehumanize any human being. But just because a person claims to be Jewish does not mean that they are. I personally identify the Jew by their actions, not what they claim to be.

Dehumanizing plays to the hands of anti-Semites, rather than those who want a just resolution of this conflict.

I do not see the 'play' or the analogy of dehumanizing as 'antisemitic'.

If that was the case, than what israel is doing to gaza and it's population is inhumane. Which has nothing to do with Jews or Judaism as the cause of the conflict. The flagrant use of the term 'antisemitic' is dehumanizing, rude and often down right irresponsible. And I do not see Jews as being rude and irresponsible purely because the religion and belief system teaches their children and population to maintain responsibility as a matter of culture.

Is that my error to view Jews as better than most on the choice to be good quality people? Am i wrong to Love Jews for just being solid human beings? Or is it my error to defend Jews because I prefer people that I can trust beyond politics or accepted ignorance?

 

[libre]

But just because a person claims to be Jewish does not mean that they are. I personally identify the Jew by their actions, not what they claim to be.

It's not my place to deny or affirm any person's Jewishness, however it seems to me that how you personally identify Jewish people is obtuse.

Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group and not all ethnic Jews practice Judaism. At best gate keeping Jewishness in this way is a no true Scotsman, at worst it's just a refusal to confront facts for political reasons.

Is that my error to view Jews as better than most on the choice to be good quality people? Am i wrong to Love Jews for just being solid human beings? Or is it my error to defend Jews because I prefer people that I can trust beyond politics or accepted ignorance?

You're welcome to ascribe any values to Judaism that you'd like. However to argue that a given jew is a 'wannabe' or somehow not a real jew based on your difference of opinion in Religion or politics is in my view is completely out of line, non-empathetic and unproductive.

 

[Laniakea]

You don't know very many Jews if you don't know any that support what Israel is doing right now. Or are they not real jews?

Then why have pro-palestinian and pro-Hamas groups been committing so many hate crimes against Jewish people (especially in Universities and other such liberal-elitist clubs) ever since Oct. 7th--even before Israel began fighting back?

 

[Bthoth]

It's not my place to deny or affirm any person's Jewishness, however it seems to me that how you personally identify Jewish people is obtuse.

Quite the opposite. The Jew is the better person based on their choice to maintain personal responsibility (the religion). It's the wannabe that are rude with bias as they expect to be given grace.

Jewish people are an ethnoreligious group and not all ethnic Jews practice Judaism.

On this venue, that appears to be the accepted. I've even observed a person on this site compare themselves to indigenous (North American Indian) to use that modeling. Such that they are Indian by blood line and not practicing the religion. I can be found to throw the flag for foul.

And that goes back to my initial argument, if the person is not observing Judaism, how do they use biblical lineage as their Jewish heritage?

At best gate keeping Jewishness in this way is a no true Scotsman, at worst it's just a refusal to confront facts for political reasons.

No. It's being honest before accepting irrationally created labels.

You're welcome to ascribe any values to Judaism that you'd like.

Thank you, as I appreciate Judaism based on the merits of torah/tanakh, not because of the attempted genocide of ww2. To know and comprehend the culture and belief system it is very hard for me to consider how anyone can hate a Jew. But then the tangent of claiming a Jew is based on a lineage and not the merits of the person is the same as bigotry as found in the pharaohs of egypt and even the leadership of north korea.

However to argue that a given jew is a 'wannabe' or somehow not a real jew based on your difference of opinion in Religion or politics is in my view is completely out of line, non-empathetic and unproductive.

As you write it is being represented that you do not appreciate Jews or Judaism and willing to let hypocrisy reduce the integrity of Jews and Judaism.

As stated,.......... I defend Jews and Judaism as I have for most of my life. Why? Because it's been a part of my rearing and long time period of study and application. That is true empathy, to actually partake in the learning and study to understand.

Love takes the application and involvement by choice!

 

[libre]

I've even observed a person on this site compare themselves to indigenous (North American Indian) to use that modeling. Such that they are Indian by blood line and not practicing the religion. I can be found to throw the flag for foul.

I have zero idea what you mean by this.

Do you think you need to have an Indigenous religion to be Indigenous?
Let's say a guy is ethnically Indigenous and part of an Ojibwe first nation. Do you think being a Christian or a Muslim would make him not Ojibwe?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As stated,.......... I defend Jews and Judaism as I have for most of my life.

Rubbish. Your diatribes resemble nothing so much as No True Scotsman fallacies laced with antisemitic tropes.

 

[Bthoth]

I have zero idea what you mean by this.

OK.

Do you think you need to have an Indigenous religion to be Indigenous?

I did not use the analogy. I used the strange as an example.

Let's say a guy is ethnically Indigenous and part of an Ojibwe first nation. Do you think being a Christian or a Muslim would make him not Ojibwe?

I did not make that claim.

The analogy to use the indigenous, was the crock.

 

[Revoltingest]

The existence of apologists who abuse allegations of antisemitism do not eliminate the danger posed by existing antisemitism.

Of course.

Refusing to recognize antisemitism where it exists....

Well, good thing I don't do that.
Thank you for noticing.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The existence of apologists who abuse allegations of antisemitism do not eliminate the danger posed by existing antisemitism.
Refusing to recognize antisemitism where it exists plays to the hands of those who abuse allegations of antisemitism, and hurts Palestinian liberation by alienating those affected by antisemitism.

I agree with this, and think it's all part of the communication issues we are having debating this issue. Frustratingly, while it is true that criticism of Israel is often used to mask antisemitism, it is also true that accusations of antisemitism are often used to dismiss legitimate criticism of Israel. By the same token, it is both true that criticism of Hama is often used to mask Israel's genocide, so too is Israel's genocide being implicitly used to justify silencing legitimate criticism of Hamas.

I also think that there is a degree of frustration from both sides, where I see critics of Israel just a little too enthusiastic about attacking Israel, to the extent that threads intended to highlight the crimes of Hamas immediately end up becoming people dogpiling Israeli foreign policy or even accusing people who wish to talk about Hamas negatively as being in favour of the genocide taking place.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree with this, and think it's all part of the communication issues we are having debating this issue. Frustratingly, while it is true that criticism of Israel is often used to mask antisemitism, it is also true that accusations of antisemitism are often used to dismiss legitimate criticism of Israel. By the same token, it is both true that criticism of Hama is often used to mask Israel's genocide, so too is Israel's genocide being implicitly used to justify silencing legitimate criticism of Hamas.

I also think that there is a degree of frustration from both sides, where I see critics of Israel just a little too enthusiastic about attacking Israel, to the extent that threads intended to highlight the crimes of Hamas immediately end up becoming people dogpiling Israeli foreign policy or even accusing people who wish to talk about Hamas negatively as being in favour of the genocide taking place.

Tax money that I pay to Uncle Sam finances
bombs for Israel to drop on Palestinians.
28,000 dead. Far more injured.
Gaza becoming inhabitable.
Israel plans sending them to Africa.
I play a role in perpetrating apartheid
& genocide.

Enthusiasm in condemnation of both
USA & Israel is most appropriate.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Enthusiasm is appropriate.
Tax money that I pay to Uncle Sam is used not
for aid to Palestinians under attack, but to send
more bombs for Israel to drop on them.
28,000 dead. Far more injured.
And Gaza becoming inhabitable.
I play a role in perpetrating an evil I loathes.

Who would argue I shouldn't be enthusiastic
in condemning both USA & Israel?

Oh, to be clear, it absolutely is warranted, but I can also understand the frustration of some posters on here who may want to highlight Hamas (even just temporarily) and get responses accusing them of trying to justify war crimes and genocide. It probably really sucks to have had an atrocity like 7/10 inflicted on hundreds of innocent civilians, and then feel unable to address the horror of this event, or call for justice for it, because the Israeli government responded to it by doing war crimes and genocide.

I think there's room for both "Israel is doing war crimes, and a lot of what has happened is a direct consequence of both historical and ongoing crimes of the Israeli state" and also "7/10 was an unjustifiable terrorist atrocity and Hamas are a significant part of the problem and a detriment to the pursuit of peace in the middle east".

I just think sometimes the enthusiasm can get in the way of the fundamental principles at play: that being, civilians shouldn't be getting killed on either side. I have seen posters on here who have been tireless over the years in highlighting Israel's crimes and defending the Palestinian people be grouped in with Israel apologists simply for acknowledging that Hamas are making the situation worse. And I think we can afford to step back a little and understand that being against Hamas is not necessarily being pro-genocide.

Am I making sense?

I hope I'm making sense.

 

[Revoltingest]

Oh, to be clear, it absolutely is warranted, but I can also understand the frustration of some posters on here who may want to highlight Hamas (even just temporarily) and get responses accusing them of trying to justify war crimes and genocide. It probably really sucks to have had an atrocity like 7/10 inflicted on hundreds of innocent civilians, and then feel unable to address the horror of this event, or call for justice for it, because the Israeli government responded to it by doing war crimes and genocide.

No doubt it is horrible to have one's tribe endure
an attack like that, & then have it be marginalized
by Israel's greater brutality.
But to fans of general human rights, the genocide
in Gaza is the 500 pound gorilla in the room.

I think there's room for both "Israel is doing war crimes, and a lot of what has happened is a direct consequence of both historical and ongoing crimes of the Israeli state" and also "7/10 was an unjustifiable terrorist atrocity and Hamas are a significant part of the problem and a detriment to the pursuit of peace in the middle east".

I just think sometimes the enthusiasm can get in the way of the fundamental principles at play: that being, civilians shouldn't be getting killed on either side. I have seen posters on here who have been tireless over the years in highlighting Israel's crimes and defending the Palestinian people be grouped in with Israel apologists simply for acknowledging that Hamas are making the situation worse. And I think we can afford to step back a little and understand that being against Hamas is not necessarily being pro-genocide.

Am I making sense?

I hope I'm making sense.

Making sense.

 

[Copernicus]

To me, this all looks like a redux of the infamous Hatfield-McCoy feud in which each side carries on violent attacks against each other, always blaming the other side for primary guilt and responsibility in keeping it going. In reality, both sides keep it going with equally absurd rationalizations. Generally speaking, both sides are roughly equivalent, Palestinian Arabs being largely descendants of Jews and other ethnic groups that have inhabited the region for centuries. However, in modern terms, they represent distinct ethnic tribes, both of which have legitimate grievances against the other stretching back at least to the aftermath of WWII. Israel currently has more firepower than the Palestinians, so it is able to kill and maim more people on the other side, but Palestinians would do the same to the Jewish state of Israel, if it had the means. The mutual bloodshed will only stop when both sides negotiate an end to the vicious cycle of violence that both are guilty of sustaining for decades. Otherwise, nothing will end this orgy of mutual hatred and violence. A good first step would be for the current Israeli government of extremist ideologues to be replaced by pragmatists that seek compromise rather than vengeance. The US needs to disengage itself from fueling the violence committed by one side against the other. Netanyahu must get out of the way. He cannot be part of the solution, because he is part of the problem.