Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints 'Christian'.

[Sonny]

Mormons believe that Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice began in Gethsemane and culminated on Calvary. I understand the implications of that. It suggests that we believe He suffered more intensely and for a longer period of time than you do. Sorry, but it is what it is.

Actually, what it is...is adding to God's canon of Scripture which Christianity teaches is set and final in the Bible. This, again, is why the LDS church is not a Christian church- they want to shred the Bible and add their words to the Canon. Until and unless the LDS church can show proof that God did give them more Scripture Christianity will not accept them as Christians. And, the LDS church calls the God of the Bible a liar all of the time. Naturally, that, too, prevents the LDS church from being 'Christian'.

The wonderful thing about the gospel of Jesus Christ as it is taught in His restored Church is that through the gift of Christ's Atonement, we can not only improve, but actually will be rewarded for doing nothing more than trying. As Elder Jeffrey R. Holland put it: "The Lord blesses those who want to improve, who accept the need for commandments and try to keep them, who cherish Christlike virtues and strive to the best of their ability to acquire them. We are going to be blessed for our desire to do good, even as we actually strive to be so."

Another proof the Mormon church is not Christian. Christians do not believe, teach or practice that obeying commandments from men is how we gain salvation. Christians believe that salvation comes thru belief in Jesus, alone, as Savior, Lord and God. People can't obey (which is a mainstay of Mormonism- 'obey LDS leaders') what they don't know. New converts to Christianity take, sometimes, months to understand the basic beliefs. What if they die before they obey? Plus, that is also what the Bible teaches. Mormonism does not. Therefore, LDS is not Christian- notwithstanding their constant cry to the opposite. If one has to keep telling people they are 'this' or 'that' then they almost certainly is not 'that'. The Mormon church is not a Christian church.

 

[Sonny]

The first great commandment of all eternity is to love God with all of our heart, might, mind, and strength—that's the first great commandment. But the first great truth of all eternity is that that God loves us with all of His heart, might, mind and strength."

I showed how many 'greatest' and 'firsts' the LDS church taught. There must be 15 or more 'greatest' doctrines or principles or commandments. The first thing the LDS church ought to do is figure out which of those 15 or so firsts/greatest is really the first or greatest.

The reason you don't see crosses on LDS buildings is because our focus is on the glorified, resurrected Christ, the Christ who sits today on the right hand of His Father, not on the Christ hanging in agony while being mocked by His torturers. We believe that He would prefer than we emphasize, not the fact that He died, but that He overcame death. Besides, displaying the cross as a Christian icon was very rare during at least the first century after Jesus' death. It depicts a horrendous method of public execution and, consequently, His earliest followers almost never used it. I guess "real" Christianity didn't emerge until later on.

Again, proof LDS church is not Christian (how many of these proofs have I given now? About 10, I think- that's a lot)
The LDS church has no idea what the Cross symbolizes. It shows all of us the price of our sins against God and the extreme lengths He was willing to endure for us to buy us back from them. The Cross is proof of God's unconditional love- but the LDS church wants (demands) that you 'obey' their leaders with no proof they are from God except their own words (their revelations and prophecies sure don't prove it). See the difference?
Would any of you die a horrendously brutal death (like Jesus' scourging and death) for someone who just tied you up, raped your wife and daughter then slit their throats and laughed about it in court? Well, neither would I. But, that is exactly what Jesus did on the Cross. The Cross is there to show us God's love manifested in Jesus' suffering. The LDS church does not want to understand love of that degree. They just want you to obey.
Thanks, but I prefer love by choice over obedience by force thru fear and intimidation.

 

[Sonny]

OMG! Which of the 30,000+ different Christian denominations in the world today does that truth reside with? No two of them teach exactly the same things, so they can't all be 100% correct. There's more evidence for an apostasy in the early Church than I could copy and paste for you in 100 posts. You say we never provide any evidence for our claim, and yet there are books full of evidence.

Really? How many variants of Mormonism exists? Dozens, at least. C'mon, you know better than to do that. Plus, the SLC LDS church is not real Mormonism. The ones who still practice polygamy and other now defunct founding doctrines are the real LDS church, according to the founding LDS teachings and beliefs as taught and published by JS, BY and other founding/early LDS prophets/leaders. So your premise for a restoration becomes the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Sonny]

Did the LDS church of SLC, Ut. teach that there are/were other books/sources that they call/called Scripture or their standard works (SW)? To listen to the LDS here that answer is a resounding No. But saying that only goes to show us that the LDS, those here at least, haven't studied LDS church history or founding/early beliefs (by founding/early I mean, the very doctrines and beliefs that God spoke directly and face to face to JS and a chosen few others in the beginning/founding days of the 'Church of Christ' - the first of 5 names the LDS church had. Apparently, the LDS god isn't all-knowing bc he couldn't decide what to call his church even tho he said it in the BoM. But that is for another post).
Here, then, is another proof that there were, indeed, other LDS 'words' that were taught as SW at one time. This photo is from the 1937 'The Missionary's Hand Book', page 48. It states that the Bible (my add- it should be 3rd or last but the LDS church wants to be seen as a Christian church so they put it first but it is really 3rd, at best), the BoM, the D&C and the PGP. Next, they tell the missionaries that,
"It is wise to consult these first." (meaning, to consult these 4 books first as they gather information for their mission (the chapter title is, 'Gathering Information').
Then, they state this,
"WITH VERY FEW EXCEPTIONS they are the original sources of all Church teachings."
Very few exceptions, eh? That means, clearly, that there were other sources of LDS church teachings that were taught as the LDS church's SW. The JoDs being one example of them, just as volume 8, Preface page states.

I truly hope we can now put that SW truth to rest once and for all. Because, I believe, if you can't trust the LDS church's leaders, who wrote, taught, printed and published this book for every one of their missionaries then sent them out into the world to tell people these doctrines and beliefs, then who can you trust in that church?

 

[silvermoon383]

I'm pretty sure I proved that wrong (she has you fooled, huh) by posting the fact that Haun's Mill had militarized men in the group.

This is an official Call for Reference (CFR). I want to see where you are getting this claim as well as their criteria for just what constitutes a "militarized man".

 

[Prestor John]

Seriously. You claimed I had not answered the Biblical contradictions sent to me. To date you have not shown any I did not answer.

Where is your picture?

I thought you wanted to win!

 

[Prestor John]

I'm pretty sure I proved that wrong (she has you fooled, huh) by posting the fact that Haun's Mill had militarized men in the group. Katzpur either intentionally left that extremely important point out by choice (intentional deception) or she does not know much of LDS history. You can bet, as I do and believe, that when a member of the LDS church speaks of LDS history, doctrines or general facts they are leaving out a lot intentionally or they are quoting others' opinions bc they haven't studied their own church's history/doctrines/facts.
I am truly sorry that you are so easily deceived, David. Could be bc you don't know much about the LDS. But that is ok- bc I don't know much about Rocket Science so I take 'their word' that what they say is true. But the RS could be lying to me and I would not know it tho I 'think' they are being "honest". See how that works? Personal research OR listening to those who have done the investigation and who have a history of verifiable integrity is the only way to go on issues like these two. noi

You don't sound sanctimonious or patronizing at all...

You might not know what "sarcasm" is, so just in case, it is using irony to mock or attempt contempt of someone.

In my first sentence, I was being "sarcastic", which was mocking you. See how that works?

Obviously, some LDS members at Haun's Mill were "militarized" (using that word loosely) because they chose to stay and fight against the mob/militia unit that was attacking them.

Perhaps Katzpur didn't mention it because it was so glaringly obvious.

 

[Prestor John]

Did the LDS church of SLC, Ut. teach that there are/were other books/sources that they call/called Scripture or their standard works (SW)? To listen to the LDS here that answer is a resounding No. But saying that only goes to show us that the LDS, those here at least, haven't studied LDS church history or founding/early beliefs (by founding/early I mean, the very doctrines and beliefs that God spoke directly and face to face to JS and a chosen few others in the beginning/founding days of the 'Church of Christ' - the first of 5 names the LDS church had. Apparently, the LDS god isn't all-knowing bc he couldn't decide what to call his church even tho he said it in the BoM. But that is for another post).
Here, then, is another proof that there were, indeed, other LDS 'words' that were taught as SW at one time. This photo is from the 1937 'The Missionary's Hand Book', page 48. It states that the Bible (my add- it should be 3rd or last but the LDS church wants to be seen as a Christian church so they put it first but it is really 3rd, at best), the BoM, the D&C and the PGP. Next, they tell the missionaries that,
"It is wise to consult these first." (meaning, to consult these 4 books first as they gather information for their mission (the chapter title is, 'Gathering Information').
Then, they state this,
"WITH VERY FEW EXCEPTIONS they are the original sources of all Church teachings."
Very few exceptions, eh? That means, clearly, that there were other sources of LDS church teachings that were taught as the LDS church's SW. The JoDs being one example of them, just as volume 8, Preface page states.

I truly hope we can now put that SW truth to rest once and for all. Because, I believe, if you can't trust the LDS church's leaders, who wrote, taught, printed and published this book for every one of their missionaries then sent them out into the world to tell people these doctrines and beliefs, then who can you trust in that church?

Yes, originally many members accepted many books and regarded them as "standard works", but that term was used as loosely then as you seem to use the word "militarize" now.

Only those works that have been brought forth by the President of the Church, accepted by the Quorum of the Twelve and then sustained by the body of the Church are considered the Standard Works of the Church.

The Holy Bible was the first work accepted as scripture by the organized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

 

[omega2xx]

Where is your picture?

I thought you wanted to win!

I don't consider a discussion of ideas a contest.

Here is my picture but I can't get my computer to put it where it needs to be.

 

[metis]

Is it possible that those who don't think that the LDS are not Christians may not be Christians themselves?

 

[McBell]

Seriously. You claimed I had not answered the Biblical contradictions sent to me. To date you have not shown any I did not answer.

Please quote the post where I made that claim.

 

[McBell]

I'm pretty sure I proved that wrong (she has you fooled, huh) by posting the fact that Haun's Mill had militarized men in the group. Katzpur either intentionally left that extremely important point out by choice (intentional deception) or she does not know much of LDS history. You can bet, as I do and believe, that when a member of the LDS church speaks of LDS history, doctrines or general facts they are leaving out a lot intentionally or they are quoting others' opinions bc they haven't studied their own church's history/doctrines/facts.
I am truly sorry that you are so easily deceived, David. Could be bc you don't know much about the LDS. But that is ok- bc I don't know much about Rocket Science so I take 'their word' that what they say is true. But the RS could be lying to me and I would not know it tho I 'think' they are being "honest". See how that works? Personal research OR listening to those who have done the investigation and who have a history of verifiable integrity is the only way to go on issues like these two. noi

*yawn*
you do realize that you are only being replied to for boredom relief, right?
That you slit your credibilities throat from ear to ear and no one with more than a single digit IQ can take you seriously?

That you are still trying to beat up on your dead straw horse is comical though.

 

[omega2xx]

Please quote the post where I made that claim.

I said I have answered them all. If you don't believe me, that fine. You can't show where I did not answer any addressed to me.

 

[McBell]

I said I have answered them all. If you don't believe me, that fine. You can't show where I did not answer any addressed to me.

Show me the post where I claimed you did not address the contradictions or admit you are a liar.

 

[Prestor John]

I don't consider a discussion of ideas a contest.

Here is my picture but I can't get my computer to put it where it needs to be.

View attachment 16277

Where does it need to be?

Down your throat? Up your tail pipe?

 

[omega2xx]

Show me the post where I claimed you did not address the contradictions or admit you are a liar.

You FIRST said I hadn't. Show me one I haven't answered or guess who the bold faced liar is.

 

[McBell]

You FIRST said I hadn't. Show me one I haven't answered or guess who the bold faced liar is.

You are going on and on about a claim I never made.

So either present where I made the claim you claim I claimed or admit you lied.

It is YOUR credibility on the line, not mine.

The ball is in YOUR court.
It is on you to prove I said what you say I said.
Since I have not said what you say I said, you are either mistaken or lying.

 

[omega2xx]

Where does it need to be?
?

Where you have a picture of a foot.

 

[Prestor John]

You FIRST said I hadn't. Show me one I haven't answered or guess who the bold faced liar is.

If he indeed first said it, then it should be no problem for you to quote him saying it, right?

Where you have a picture of a foot.

Your computer won't let you choose an avatar picture thing?

I'm sorry, that sucks. That would be the perfect picture for you too.

 

[Sonny]

You don't sound sanctimonious or patronizing at all...

Take it the way you choose, ok. If you/LDS didn't get it the 1st time there's no sense in trying to explain it. But- and simply, I was proving the LDS assaults on me were wrong and they are misguided in their allegiance and have misplaced trust. I guess one could say the LDS here have listened to, imo, liars and attacked one, me, who only had the truth and their best in mind. But that would be misunderstood as well. Truth is never accepted easily, I believe, by those taught falsehoods as facts.

You might not know what "sarcasm" is, so just in case, it is using irony to mock or attempt contempt of someone.

It wasn't sarcasm. It was truth. But at least you understand what the LDS have been throwing at me. Though I am not so easily offended, angered or deceived as I believe the LDS, at least here, are.

In my first sentence, I was being "sarcastic", which was mocking you. See how that works?

Oh, I get it. It's a mainstay of Mormonism and Mormons in general, I think. Seen it before- didn't like it then but hardened to it now. Thanks for trying the same old tired routine, though. When people can't refute what is said or defend what they believe they always attack. Got'cha. Funny.

Obviously, some LDS members at Haun's Mill were "militarized" (using that word loosely) because they chose to stay and fight against the mob/militia unit that was attacking them.

Perhaps Katzpur didn't mention it because it was so glaringly obvious.

I'm sorry Mormonism is not Christian. It wasn't my decision for the LDS church to teach un and anti-Christian beliefs and doctrines. But they did- and we can only inform others of that fact. The LDS church has even asked 'us' (all non-LDS) to expose JS if/when we find proof he wasn't what he claimed to be. We have but no LDS ever thanks us (as the LDS church said they would). One of my firmest beliefs is liars lie, always.
Now, maybe Katzpur/others will stop trashing me for stating the JoDs ARE LDS standard works. This photo/LDS church statement proves the point. THAT is what I meant and said. Twist it as you chose or accept what the LDS church leaders taught their missionaries. I don't care. I am only proving the OP. The reactions I get- with no evidence- only confirm what the OP states. We could have a great discussion if the LDS here would speak the full truth. Then again I do understand how hard indoctrination can be to free one's self from the clutches of.

Oh, Haun's Mill again. Ok. Militarized means weaponized which means 'they possessed guns'. There were Mormon men at Haun's Mill who had guns- all LDS always leave out their role in bad events in their history. Full disclosure is not their mantra. And it is possible that they were those who attacked the Missouri State Militia unprovoked and murdered one and tortured and disfigured another. Is 'that' truth better?
More importantly, though, to me, is wouldn't it be nice if just once the LDS would be completely truthful when they speak of events from their past. But since they won't be honest folks like me are needed to tell the whole truth. Honesty is a mainstay of Christianity but, imo, not in Mormonism.