Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
Sojourner, John 3:18 says your conclusions are wrong. "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God[/b]".
Those wicked who refuse the repent and submit to the will of the Father are still in their sins and subject to the second death---ashes.
For the "ALL" To be "in Christ", one has "confessed one's sins"--"and submitted one's will to that of the Father"--"Repented of them fully". The arrogant and defiant wicked ones will NOT be "made alive", but reap the reward the Scriptures declare--ashes.
With the continued hope one has in 1John 2:1-2 that sinning sends one back to 1John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." That includes the repentance---for in John 8:11, he writes, "Sin no more".
Your "above" is unbiblical. GOD'S Grace will cover "ALL" who choose to forsake their rebellious/lustful ways to "follow" Jesus Christ in righteousness.
Sojourner, that sentence is "ad hominem".
The Scriptures do express the truth.
I'm not going to engage any further in a petty, text-slinging contest with you. But I am going to attempt to transmit some hard truths that I hope you'll take to heart.
I'm really sorry that your faith is so small, so exclusive, that it must turn away the outcast, the disenfranchised, the stranger for whom the bible establishes hospitality again and again. I'm sorry that your God is so powerless against human sin, and that your Jesus' death was ineffectual for everyone. I'm sorry that your faith operates out of a sense of poverty, such that grace cannot be extended to those who need it most, running counter to Isaiah's invitation to "come, buy milk without money and without price." I'm sorry that you're so sure that you're right in your theological machinations and severe "interpretation" of scripture, that there's absolutely no room for anyone else but you and those who believe exactly as you do.
Sojourner, Neither the Scriptures nor I exclude any and ALL(are sinners) from the scriptural invitation to "come and Buy--without money" the necessities for eternal life. That Invitation is seen scripturally to apply to mankind(in general).
GOD is not powerless against SIN and HE will eradicate it and all who have pleasure in indulging such actions. However, GOD didn't make robots. HE made persons with a choice to be obedient or to rebel against HIM.(disobey)
Jesus Christ's Shed Blood is very effectual in cleansing one, but it has to be wanted--to be applied. HE died that ALL could be made free from SIN by its power to Save.
The Grace of the Father(like the Blood of Jesus) is bestowed upon the ones who see and acknowledge their need to have that right relationship to GOD AND ONE ANOTHER.
I'm especially sorry that your broadcasting of such a sad, tired little faith does not invite those who need faith, but rather turns them off from faith, for nobody likes snobbery and pettiness.
The bible is so full of invitation, hospitality, inclusion, forgiveness, mercy, forbearance, salvation, grace -- it's a thing to be celebrated. Yet, instead of taking a widely expansive text like 1 John and setting the prisoner free, you use it to exclude people -- as if it's the "secret handshake" to an exclusive club.
Sojourner, Yes, the Scriptures are full of messages to "come out of her my people" and to the marriage supper of the Lamb. Those invitations, also, come with a robe of righteousness which one must have on to be accepted at that supper. There are to many who refuse to wear the necessary garment. They have accepted to invitation to "ALL", but choose not to wear the specified "robe of Righteousness."
One is "free" when in compliance to the requirements---BUT, when one again chooses to be contrary to the "Thus saith the Lord GOD", that "freedom" falls into the bondage/penalty of death.
It's not an ad hominem, because I'm not attacking you -- just your ideas. But it's worth it to expose the smallness, the entitlement, the snobbery of such a closed-minded treatment of such an open-minded text.
Sojourner, You are wrong on both counts.
sojourner said:
Snobby, entitled cuss, aren't you?!
The "aren't you" isn't my ideas--but me --personally.
The 1 John text wasn't indicating that which you were supposing. 1John 3:9 says, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Yes, Jesus is the propitiation for the Sins of the world, but only those who search/seek to know and desire to "follow" are those who are born again--and will not perish.
(1)Yes, the scriptures do express the truth. Sadly, you do not propagate that truth -- you distort it. The difference between me and you is that you search the texts for ways to exclude everyone who doesn't believe just like you. I find reasons to celebrate people for who they are and where they are.
(2)Again, the truth of the biblical texts is that they were written from the perspective of one writing to those who already believed. In writing from that perspective, one uses phrases like "grace for those who believe," and "forgiveness for those who confess," and "Those who don't believe are condemned already," because those kinds of statements solidify one's position in faith, and one's position as "part of the clan." They were never, ever meant as a scare tactic or a warning to unbelievers, because unbelievers were not the intended audience.
(3)In fact, according to biblical tenet, it is incumbent upon Jesus, the disciples, and the body of believers to offer full hospitality, shelter, protection, and sustenance to strangers and outsiders. That's part of Torah Law. So to take these texts and use them to shut out, to expose, to berate, and to starve those who are not "part of the household" -- the unrepentant sinner -- is to commit a grave sin. Jesus would never have advocated that. The disciples would never have advocated that (as evidenced by their decision at the Council of Jerusalem), and neither should the body of believers (you).
(1) Yes, the Scriptures are truth. "Exclusiveness" was dealt with above.
Those Scriptures are specific in who will and who will not be a part of "GOD'S Eternal Kingdom". One's attitude/Beliefs toward the true meanings of the Scriptures given by GOD through inspired Prophets will determine whether or not one Chooses to have GOD as their GOD or another god to rule over them.
The Scriptures declare that ALL of mankind are "Sinners"---that is who and where they are. As such, they are separated from GOD--do they know it? Do they know it, but not the way back? Or do they know it and the way back?
Those Scriptures give the correct/Truthful answers.
Scripturally, GOD will not force anyone to be in HIS Kingdom---that is the choice of the person. However, the consequence is apart from GOD there is no LIFE.
(2)The Biblical text(OT+NT) were written as 1Cor. 10:6, 11 states, "Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted...Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."
Rom.15:4, "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."
Believers are all brought into the same "house-hold of GOD" in Faith and the unity with GOD.
(Un)non-believers can not be a part of that "house-hold" which is in "conflict with their unbelief". However, GOD'S plan of salvation, from the beginning, has been to save ALL who would have HIM as their GOD(and obedient to HIS WILL).
(3)Sojourner, your "In fact" is not scriptural--nor Torah. The "unrepentant one" was "cut off from the congregation"---just as Cain was sent out from the "family". SIN is not tolerated as part of the Truth of the Scriptures.
Yes, the wheat and the tares do occupy the same world, but their ends are not the same.
Humanly speaking, those Scriptures admonish one to be born again--therefore, the change from "unrepentant" to REPENTANT.
Jesus sat at table and hung out with and taught and protected unrepentant sinners, such as Zacchaeus, the prostitute, the woman at the well. And it was his generosity -- his willingness to offer hospitality and to include -- that caused them to turn around -- not his instilling a fear of hell in them.
You really, really need to take a second look at what you're thinking, believing, and spreading to others, because it certainly isn't proclaiming the year of the Lord's favor. It's only proclaiming your own entitlement.
Despite my utter distaste of what you do to the texts, to faith, and to those who are not "part of the clan," despite my utter loathing of exclusive actions, I celebrate the fact that you are as welcome at God's table as the most unrepentant of sinners.
Yes. They did "turn around"---ALL SINNERS have that ability to "turn around"--be obedient to the Scriptures. That "turning around" is done because of one seeing one's self in that lost position and takes advantage of the "cleansing" offered in LOVE.
Unfortunately, Your idea that eventually "ALL will be saved" isn't scripturally true. The "unrepentant sinner" will not be at GOD'S Table.
