Desert Snake
Veteran Member
People talk about Jesus referring to the 'father', in the Scriptures, is Jesus separate from the father?
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Is Jesus separate from the father?
- Thread starter Desert Snake
- Start date
No separation, all consciousness is ultimately One.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Yes. Divinity debate or?
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
The Bible has NO trinity concept in it, - so Jesus and YHVH are separate .
Jesus is claiming to be the Jewish Messiah whom is to be a special HUMAN from the line of David, - not a God.
Plus it is very obvious in the story, - when Jesus prays to YHVH, and when he asks YHVH if the task can be taken from him, and even adds - not my will, but thine.
The Logos is actually the Law, which is with YHVH from the beginning.
The Logos is not Jesus, - The Law is - encased/enfleshed - in Jesus, so he can fulfill his Messiah role.
According to the Bible story, of course.
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Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Sure, if you want.
Why did you ask?Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Because there seems to be different opinions on this, even between Xians, I believe. So, I'm gauging the average beliefs concerning this with a poll.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Em. Well my position remains the same. Jesus is separate from the Father. He's not the Father. (Side with JW)
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Is there some reason for this?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Other than requoting the same scriptures used, it just makes common sense. If I took a lay mans approach, Id say Jesus followed Jewish beliefs. As practicing Jews today, He always had a one to one connection with God. I any cultures, when you insult one person you inst their whole family. Why? Each family member are a part of each other. They are One unit.
You see it today with Jewish culture (Jesus followed the same culture) where everyone is one community. While Jesus specifically wanted to save the gentiles too, he still kept trying to reconnect His people back "to His Father." He said they (and the phar.) were replacing their worship to Jesus Father with their traditions. Jesus always put Himself equal to the Father not as the Father.
It makes sense in a few verses. "Why do you call me good, the only good comes from the Father?" (Luke 18:19) All Abrahamic faiths point to the Father. A short percentage of christians also say go to the Father. It just makes sense.
In the beginning of the Bible, unless God had MPD He always refered to Himself as We. "We dont want them to know good and evil like us" (Genesis 3:22) It seemed like Father like son.
I am one with my mother because she bore me. I am not her and that does not make me less of a person or outside the family based on how I relate to her as a daughter.
I feel it is offensive to call Jesus His Father. Everything He says comes "from" the Father. The Father's Word comes "through" His Son. His Son is a visible "image of" and invisible God.
I know youve mentioned about manesfisations. I dont know how that differs from the incarnation.
It just makes sense. I can see why people would want to think He is God. I guess no one but God can save them. Yet God saved the Hebrews through Moses. Im sure there are other prophets who God used to save others. Why cant the same logic be applied to Jesus? The level of importance of His duty doesnt surpass that His Father "sent" Him...as with Moses..etc.
This is one of the few christian debates that seems so blank and white its hard to really change sides just learn from each other.
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FollowerOfTheLord
Member
Jesus is a part of the Trinity. God The Father, Jesus Christ The Son, and The Holy Spirit are 3 in 1. Jesus is essentially God in the Flesh. They are three distinct person(s), but yet they are in one accord.
To answer the question NO Jesus is not the Father, because again they are 3 distinct person(s) in one accord. He IS God, but NOT the Father.
To answer the question NO Jesus is not the Father, because again they are 3 distinct person(s) in one accord. He IS God, but NOT the Father.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
The Bible doesn't say that.
No trinity. No Jesus as God.
He claims to be the awaited Jewish Messiah, whom is a special sent HUMAN from the line of David.
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FollowerOfTheLord
Member
Not in my Bible, good ole King James Version. Again that is your viewpoint in which I will not ever agree with as I am pretty positive the Bible clearly states NO man shall get to The Father but through Jesus.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Jesus does not say he is God. - Rather a big item to leave off the list don't you think?
He prays to his Father. He asks that God that his burden be taken away, - He either isn't God, - or he is schizophrenic.
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Separate in person, but one in being.
You can insist that your interpretation trumps that of Christian orthodoxy all you want. You may think you know what you're talking about, but it's really unlikely that you have a compelling point that has been mysteriously 'missed' for two-thousand years.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
IT HAS BEGUN!!
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
"Through" Jesus.
Christian--->Jesus--->Father not Christian--->Father/Jesus.
"You have to get through me to go to my Father" not "You have to go to me because I AM the Father"
It does not matter which is true. Scripture supports the former.
Servant_of_the_One1
Well-Known Member
When Jesus peace be upon him said:
1) I do the will of God Allmighty who sent me.
2) Only God is good
3)God is greater than me.
4) Go Away Satan! I will not worship you. In the scripture it says worship God alone!
5) the first commandment is Hear o Israel the God our Lord is One God
6) You want the Love of God? To get His Love you must go through me(Worship God and follow me, iam his prophet).
When people saw him, they said:
Look! That is Jesus from Nazareth , a prophet!
Scripturally speaking Jesus is simply NOT GOD.
Either the Bible writers were highly confused or those that invented this lie(jesus "divinity").
1) I do the will of God Allmighty who sent me.
2) Only God is good
3)God is greater than me.
4) Go Away Satan! I will not worship you. In the scripture it says worship God alone!
5) the first commandment is Hear o Israel the God our Lord is One God
6) You want the Love of God? To get His Love you must go through me(Worship God and follow me, iam his prophet).
When people saw him, they said:
Look! That is Jesus from Nazareth , a prophet!
Scripturally speaking Jesus is simply NOT GOD.
Either the Bible writers were highly confused or those that invented this lie(jesus "divinity").
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
It hasn't been missed for two thousand years.
What do you think they were suppressing at the Nicene Councils? It is all there in the writings.
There are also obviously Christian groups today that also recognize that God is ONE, - no trinity, - no Jesus as God.
And as has been pointed out over and over - there is no trinity doctrine in the Bible, nor does Jesus say he is God.
He only claims to be the awaited Jewish Messiah - the Anointed = Christos.
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