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Is God Simply Incredible To Educated Westerners?

Sapiens

Polymathematician
An interesting piece here by J. H. MCKENNA, PH.D. originally posed at Is God Simply Incredible To Educated Westerners? - Humanist Plus

At some point in recent Western history, the God idea became ‘simply incredible’ on the face of it for many, many educated people.

Sociologists, psychologists and religious scholars have pondered, pondered and pondered the reasons why so many modern Westerners abandoned belief in God. But there’s one reason academics did not espy. The God idea is itself a cause of incredulity among the educated classes: the anthropomorphic, emotion-laden, easily irritated, biased, male God, who is satisfied with a high degree of human and animal suffering, lost believability.

When I speak with atheists nowadays, I sometimes ask them to compose a short 200-word essay explaining why they disbelieve. (That would be about three paragraphs in this piece you are reading—not long.) But these atheists refuse to write 200 words and tell me they would just as soon write 200 words on why they don’t believe in the Phoenix as write 200 words explaining why they disbelieve in God. To them, the notion of God is as fabulous as the Phoenix. Why waste time composing 200 words justifying incredulity about the Phoenix?

This is a phenomenon particular to our time because, for two hundred years prior, skeptics would have been eager to make their case against God. In the nineteenth century alone, freethinkers wrote hundreds of books, and scores of popular skeptical magazines sold in the millions in the UK and Australia, New Zealand, and in America. Dozens of skeptical organizations and secular societies emerged, and crowds of thousands gathered in buildings and in open-air forums to hear skeptical speakers—gifted with oratorical brilliance—critique God and offer godless alternatives to religion.

Skeptics of those bygone generations would have sat down on the spot to write me that 200-word essay. Or they would have done it on their feet, smoothing a sheet over my back and using my back as their desk. But not today. And why not today? Why is God ‘simply incredible’ to today’s educated atheists?

The answer is that religion in those earlier eras was hardy, and skeptics felt they had to challenge religion as an irrepressible opponent. But by degrees religion started to unravel—like a mohair sweater that modern skeptics and modern events tugged at, loosening the threads, until the sweater was in tatters. And the sweater was in tatters by the end of the sixth decade of the twentieth century. By then it was an unmendable sweater, even for the most talented theological seamstress. A generation of intellectuals was lost to God. The ‘new’ atheists who tossed books up the best-seller lists in the early twenty-first century did not create their skeptical readership: those people already existed.

And now, in the twenty-first century, the very latest version of unbelief is total indifference to God owing to the complete implausibility of the God idea for these people. Such individuals do not rise to the level and label of ‘atheist’ because an atheist is really still in the theological game. An atheist is actually another theologian (and usually a better theologian than a believing theologian).

There’s no need for releasing The Searchers to find out the cause for current incredulity about God. Look back to Norse religion as an example. At some point in Norse history the God Thor became incredible at first glance and ceased to provoke a second glance. The reason Thor became ‘simply incredible’ was not traceable to any psychological injury in the doubters. The Thor idea was itself the cause of the doubt.

To win the Indifferentists (as we may call today’s atheists), theologians would have to thoroughly renovate the idea of God, something that most theologians lack the nerve to try. But it might make things interesting if they were to try. Is there an idea of God that is not unbelievable on the face of it—an idea of God that is not ‘simply incredible’?

Thoughts?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I think you can find some scientific studies that support the notion the more educated you are, the less likely you are to believe in deity, especially certain deities (e.g. the Christian God and Allah)
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Look back to Norse religion as an example. At some point in Norse history the God Thor became incredible at first glance and ceased to provoke a second glance. The reason Thor became ‘simply incredible’ was not traceable to any psychological injury in the doubters. The Thor idea was itself the cause of the doubt.
That's not a good comparison because the ancestral European religions were largely persecuted out of existence or driven underground. They never completely went away, though. Their stories continue to inspire, especially with the Hellenic Gods being much beloved.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
I think you can find some scientific studies that support the notion the more educated you are, the less likely you are to believe in deity, especially certain deities (e.g. the Christian God and Allah)

Over 90% of the members of the National Academy of Science are atheists.
 

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
the anthropomorphic, emotion-laden, easily irritated, biased, male God, who is satisfied with a high degree of human and animal suffering...Thoughts?

Alright. To the guy who recently posted about how it was annoying that people didn't specify which/whose God they were talking about when using the term on this forum: I did not understand why you felt that way at the time of your post (probably because I am relatively new here) but I totally get it now. You were correct!!

This habit of people to neglect that detail and post things like this anyways in the general section is indeed quite annoying. :p

Things like this make me think "Ooo, is this thread something that could potentially cause me to examine or explore my own beliefs??" *Click* "Ah, no. Nothing here applies to me." ;)
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This is a phenomenon particular to our time because, for two hundred years prior, skeptics would have been eager to make their case against God. In the nineteenth century alone, freethinkers wrote hundreds of books, and scores of popular skeptical magazines sold in the millions in the UK and Australia, New Zealand, and in America. Dozens of skeptical organizations and secular societies emerged, and crowds of thousands gathered in buildings and in open-air forums to hear skeptical speakers—gifted with oratorical brilliance—critique God and offer godless alternatives to religion.

Skeptics of those bygone generations would have sat down on the spot to write me that 200-word essay. Or they would have done it on their feet, smoothing a sheet over my back and using my back as their desk. But not today. And why not today? Why is God ‘simply incredible’ to today’s educated atheists?
It certainly sounds like the beliefs of the "freethinkers" and "skeptics" today are not derived from reasoning. Perhaps their beliefs today are more the product of an "in-group/out-group" kind of thing.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Well, I guess yes...but I know well-educated people who do believe in deity...some of them are scientists, but others are involved in the arts and humanities. Membership of the NAS is made up of well-educated scientists...I would suspect there are national academies of the arts and humanities as well, and that their memberships are well-educated in their fields.

Personally, I do find that the idea of the omnimax creator deity to be literally beyond my comprehension--therefore incredible. I don't assert that there isn't such a deity, just that I am unable to conceive of such a deity...but if such a one exists, I would expect that it would be able to do and say the things attributed to it in the various texts of religions that claim this. I would expect it to be able to have a personal relationship with me, although I would have no way to know that it was indeed the omnimax creator deity--even if it showed me, I don't think I would be able to perceive and comprehend it as such.

While I don't currently 'do' any deities, aside from such an omnimax deity that, aside from a verbal placeholder, I literally cannot comprehend, I can conceive of other deities...literal, figurative, metaphoric, etc....that are not omnimax, but are more credible to me if someone were to present evidence of their existence.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I think the Abrahamic God concept has past its prime with educated westerners. I think the religion of the future will incorporate the primacy of consciousness and the interconnectedness of all things. A pantheistic God concept will emerge from that.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Over 90% of the members of the National Academy of Science are atheists.

That explains why Jesus deliberately chose uneducated men as his apostles. The more educated a person becomes, the less need he sees for some invisible God to dictate his actions, and the more inclined he is to follow his own ideas about everything, regardless of the cost. We see the rape of this earth for financial gain as proof of this. Scientists in various fields have often provided the means to accomplish this.....whilst providing little in the way of solutions as the deadly pollution continues.

Since science has become the 'religion' of many, and today's halls of higher learning can be viewed as their 'temples', they have become virtual 'gods' to themselves, to each other and to their students. Over-inflated egos dominate in these 'temples', which is revealed in the way they denigrate anyone who opposes their views and their educated opinions on everything. They receive what amounts to 'worship' from their adoring disciples.

It is inherent in man to worship, so substitution takes place where, if a person can be persuaded to ditch the Creator, s/he can transfer their adulation to human substitutes. For the academically minded it is the big names in science and their 'scripture' that receives their devotion.

For those of a lesser education standard, we have sport....complete with their massively expensive temples and over-paid idols. (Though even the educated can worship there too. Is this a form of polytheism perhaps?)

For the empty-headed it is the worship of celebrities and emulation of their idol's lifestyle and clothing.

Most people will never recognize the substitution. But when you step back, it becomes very obvious.
 

Mister Silver

Faith's Nightmare
That explains why Jesus deliberately chose uneducated men as his apostles. The more educated a person becomes, the less need he sees for some invisible God to dictate his actions, and the more inclined he is to follow his own ideas about everything, regardless of the cost.

There is no way you're not a troll. I have certainly experienced enough of them online.
 
Last edited:

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
There is no way you're not a troll. I have certainly experienced enough of them online.

This is in the "General Religious Debates" section, not in an atheist's forum. That is not trolling. It is my contribution to a discussion in response to a specific comment made by the thread's creator.

Did I touch a nerve or something?
electricf.gif
consoling2.gif
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Alright. To the guy who recently posted about how it was annoying that people didn't specify which/whose God they were talking about when using the term on this forum: I did not understand why you felt that way at the time of your post (probably because I am relatively new here) but I totally get it now. You were correct!!

This habit of people to neglect that detail and post things like this anyways in the general section is indeed quite annoying. :p

Things like this make me think "Ooo, is this thread something that could potentially cause me to examine or explore my own beliefs??" *Click* "Ah, no. Nothing here applies to me." ;)
Precisely. :mad::D
 

corynski

Reality First!
Premium Member
An interesting piece here by J. H. MCKENNA, PH.D. originally posed at Is God Simply Incredible To Educated Westerners? - Humanist Plus

At some point in recent Western history, the God idea became ‘simply incredible’ on the face of it for many, many educated people.

Sociologists, psychologists and religious scholars have pondered, pondered and pondered the reasons why so many modern Westerners abandoned belief in God. But there’s one reason academics did not espy. The God idea is itself a cause of incredulity among the educated classes: the anthropomorphic, emotion-laden, easily irritated, biased, male God, who is satisfied with a high degree of human and animal suffering, lost believability.

When I speak with atheists nowadays, I sometimes ask them to compose a short 200-word essay explaining why they disbelieve. (That would be about three paragraphs in this piece you are reading—not long.) But these atheists refuse to write 200 words and tell me they would just as soon write 200 words on why they don’t believe in the Phoenix as write 200 words explaining why they disbelieve in God. To them, the notion of God is as fabulous as the Phoenix. Why waste time composing 200 words justifying incredulity about the Phoenix?

This is a phenomenon particular to our time because, for two hundred years prior, skeptics would have been eager to make their case against God. In the nineteenth century alone, freethinkers wrote hundreds of books, and scores of popular skeptical magazines sold in the millions in the UK and Australia, New Zealand, and in America. Dozens of skeptical organizations and secular societies emerged, and crowds of thousands gathered in buildings and in open-air forums to hear skeptical speakers—gifted with oratorical brilliance—critique God and offer godless alternatives to religion.

Skeptics of those bygone generations would have sat down on the spot to write me that 200-word essay. Or they would have done it on their feet, smoothing a sheet over my back and using my back as their desk. But not today. And why not today? Why is God ‘simply incredible’ to today’s educated atheists?

The answer is that religion in those earlier eras was hardy, and skeptics felt they had to challenge religion as an irrepressible opponent. But by degrees religion started to unravel—like a mohair sweater that modern skeptics and modern events tugged at, loosening the threads, until the sweater was in tatters. And the sweater was in tatters by the end of the sixth decade of the twentieth century. By then it was an unmendable sweater, even for the most talented theological seamstress. A generation of intellectuals was lost to God. The ‘new’ atheists who tossed books up the best-seller lists in the early twenty-first century did not create their skeptical readership: those people already existed.

And now, in the twenty-first century, the very latest version of unbelief is total indifference to God owing to the complete implausibility of the God idea for these people. Such individuals do not rise to the level and label of ‘atheist’ because an atheist is really still in the theological game. An atheist is actually another theologian (and usually a better theologian than a believing theologian).

There’s no need for releasing The Searchers to find out the cause for current incredulity about God. Look back to Norse religion as an example. At some point in Norse history the God Thor became incredible at first glance and ceased to provoke a second glance. The reason Thor became ‘simply incredible’ was not traceable to any psychological injury in the doubters. The Thor idea was itself the cause of the doubt.

To win the Indifferentists (as we may call today’s atheists), theologians would have to thoroughly renovate the idea of God, something that most theologians lack the nerve to try. But it might make things interesting if they were to try. Is there an idea of God that is not unbelievable on the face of it—an idea of God that is not ‘simply incredible’?

Thoughts?

The Christian Bible presents an 'unreal' god to an educated mind is the problem I think, and an examination seems to confirm that suspicion, together with the fact that no 'god' will show up, and even Jesus, after saying many times that he was coming back, has failed to make an appearance. Put this together with the fact that educated people understand evolution and the basics of anthropology and mythology.... the 'evolution' of gods if you will.... and the summation of all these factors tell one that actually men create gods, and not that gods create men.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It certainly sounds like the beliefs of the "freethinkers" and "skeptics" today are not derived from reasoning. Perhaps their beliefs today are more the product of an "in-group/out-group" kind of thing.
That does not really make sense, if what can be seen of reality is any indication. If anything, it seems far more likely that the numbers of theists are inflated by that phenomenom.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
An interesting piece here by J. H. MCKENNA, PH.D. originally posed at Is God Simply Incredible To Educated Westerners? - Humanist Plus

At some point in recent Western history, the God idea became ‘simply incredible’ on the face of it for many, many educated people.

Sociologists, psychologists and religious scholars have pondered, pondered and pondered the reasons why so many modern Westerners abandoned belief in God. But there’s one reason academics did not espy. The God idea is itself a cause of incredulity among the educated classes: the anthropomorphic, emotion-laden, easily irritated, biased, male God, who is satisfied with a high degree of human and animal suffering, lost believability.

When I speak with atheists nowadays, I sometimes ask them to compose a short 200-word essay explaining why they disbelieve. (That would be about three paragraphs in this piece you are reading—not long.) But these atheists refuse to write 200 words and tell me they would just as soon write 200 words on why they don’t believe in the Phoenix as write 200 words explaining why they disbelieve in God. To them, the notion of God is as fabulous as the Phoenix. Why waste time composing 200 words justifying incredulity about the Phoenix?

This is a phenomenon particular to our time because, for two hundred years prior, skeptics would have been eager to make their case against God. In the nineteenth century alone, freethinkers wrote hundreds of books, and scores of popular skeptical magazines sold in the millions in the UK and Australia, New Zealand, and in America. Dozens of skeptical organizations and secular societies emerged, and crowds of thousands gathered in buildings and in open-air forums to hear skeptical speakers—gifted with oratorical brilliance—critique God and offer godless alternatives to religion.

Skeptics of those bygone generations would have sat down on the spot to write me that 200-word essay. Or they would have done it on their feet, smoothing a sheet over my back and using my back as their desk. But not today. And why not today? Why is God ‘simply incredible’ to today’s educated atheists?

The answer is that religion in those earlier eras was hardy, and skeptics felt they had to challenge religion as an irrepressible opponent. But by degrees religion started to unravel—like a mohair sweater that modern skeptics and modern events tugged at, loosening the threads, until the sweater was in tatters. And the sweater was in tatters by the end of the sixth decade of the twentieth century. By then it was an unmendable sweater, even for the most talented theological seamstress. A generation of intellectuals was lost to God. The ‘new’ atheists who tossed books up the best-seller lists in the early twenty-first century did not create their skeptical readership: those people already existed.

And now, in the twenty-first century, the very latest version of unbelief is total indifference to God owing to the complete implausibility of the God idea for these people. Such individuals do not rise to the level and label of ‘atheist’ because an atheist is really still in the theological game. An atheist is actually another theologian (and usually a better theologian than a believing theologian).

There’s no need for releasing The Searchers to find out the cause for current incredulity about God. Look back to Norse religion as an example. At some point in Norse history the God Thor became incredible at first glance and ceased to provoke a second glance. The reason Thor became ‘simply incredible’ was not traceable to any psychological injury in the doubters. The Thor idea was itself the cause of the doubt.

To win the Indifferentists (as we may call today’s atheists), theologians would have to thoroughly renovate the idea of God, something that most theologians lack the nerve to try. But it might make things interesting if they were to try. Is there an idea of God that is not unbelievable on the face of it—an idea of God that is not ‘simply incredible’?

Thoughts?
It's the westerners image of God that is the issue. Westerners don't typically realize, unless they study theology or manage to break from the Abrahamic concepts, that there is a whole world of theology and god concepts that diverge from a typical, man in the sky notion of god.

From the article "an idea of god that isn't simply incredible", yes get away from the Bible god concept and try reading some differing opinions. As westerners become educated they end up dumping a god concept that even uneducated people don't really believe in. I've asked and hardly anyone believes in a sky daddy these days.
 
That explains why Jesus deliberately chose uneducated men as his apostles. The more educated a person becomes, the less need he sees for some invisible God to dictate his actions, and the more inclined he is to follow his own ideas about everything, regardless of the cost.

I am fully aware that some religions such as yours for example, consider ignorance and gullibility virtues.
 
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