Instability

[EverChanging]

I've been reflecting a bit lately on some of my eccentric behavior. I've been religious pretty much my whole life even without a religious upbringing and have gone through a lot of changes in my beliefs and practices. Some of that I consider normal, but I noticed there was a time in my life when I was flipping through various practices rapidly and none of them were lasting. It seemed neurotic. I did finally settle on a more or less stable set of beliefs and practices complimenting my Anglican faith practice and then went through some difficult issues and converted to Catholicism against my best judgments. I had been drawn to many aspects of that faith for a long time, especially as someone who was drawn to Anglo-Catholic practices and thought, but I knew it was IDIOTIC to convert to Catholicism where I live, especially since my Anglican parish was so much more "catholic" than anything the Catholic parishes here would ever offer anyway. Not only that, but in such a short amount of time I felt very rejected in the Catholic Church and suffered mental distress from how I was treated by clergy -- or at least perceived myself to be treated. It didn't take me long to go back to my traditional Anglican parish and I was at home immediately. No one bothered me about where I had been. Just a few smiles and waves. It was so wonderful to be back in a solemn liturgy. I was so glad to be taking communion the same way as everyone else. And even though the parish is very conservative no one would ever dream of asking prying questions about my sexuality -- that was becoming a problem in the Catholic Church. After all of this I've come to appreciate why I became an Anglican in the first place -- in my one parish we have evangelicals, Anglo-Catholics, one Anglo-Orthodox (if that's a term), a few liberals, a New Ager, a neo-pagan, and then my own practice. Those of us on the fringes of the theological spectrum tend to keep quiet but no one has any fear of being shunned or excommunicated.

Now I'm simply left wondering why I ever left this place to begin with. When I did leave my beliefs and practices didn't even change. Instead I just went through a lot of seemingly needless pain and rejection. I still think very highly of the Catholic friends I've had in my life who had a lot to do with this exploration, but I am very pained and disappointed at my experiences becoming a Catholic.

There seems to be this unstable part of my religious identity. The core beliefs and practices tend to remain the same now and have for years, but I occasionally go through these periods in which they change superficially. Then I bounce back to normal again.

I have seen quite a few other lurkers of online forums of a spiritual or religious orientation do this same thing -- often to a much more extreme degree than me. I'm just letting out some of these feelings. Thoughts?

 

[Wilson Wilson]

There seems to be this unstable part of my religious identity. The core beliefs and practices tend to remain the same now and have for years, but I occasionally go through these periods in which they change superficially. Then I bounce back to normal again.

I have seen quite a few other lurkers of online forums of a spiritual or religious orientation do this same thing -- often to a much more extreme degree than me. I'm just letting out some of these feelings. Thoughts?

I say ride that wave and don't be so hard on yourself. People will always have their opinions, bad or good, but what matters is what you feel is right for you. I have done a little searching too and always end up back with the same views in the end. I think you are alright friend.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I've been reflecting a bit lately on some of my eccentric behavior. I've been religious pretty much my whole life even without a religious upbringing and have gone through a lot of changes in my beliefs and practices. Some of that I consider normal, but I noticed there was a time in my life when I was flipping through various practices rapidly and none of them were lasting. It seemed neurotic. I did finally settle on a more or less stable set of beliefs and practices complimenting my Anglican faith practice and then went through some difficult issues and converted to Catholicism against my best judgments. I had been drawn to many aspects of that faith for a long time, especially as someone who was drawn to Anglo-Catholic practices and thought, but I knew it was IDIOTIC to convert to Catholicism where I live, especially since my Anglican parish was so much more "catholic" than anything the Catholic parishes here would ever offer anyway. Not only that, but in such a short amount of time I felt very rejected in the Catholic Church and suffered mental distress from how I was treated by clergy -- or at least perceived myself to be treated. It didn't take me long to go back to my traditional Anglican parish and I was at home immediately. No one bothered me about where I had been. Just a few smiles and waves. It was so wonderful to be back in a solemn liturgy. I was so glad to be taking communion the same way as everyone else. And even though the parish is very conservative no one would ever dream of asking prying questions about my sexuality -- that was becoming a problem in the Catholic Church. After all of this I've come to appreciate why I became an Anglican in the first place -- in my one parish we have evangelicals, Anglo-Catholics, one Anglo-Orthodox (if that's a term), a few liberals, a New Ager, a neo-pagan, and then my own practice. Those of us on the fringes of the theological spectrum tend to keep quiet but no one has any fear of being shunned or excommunicated.

Now I'm simply left wondering why I ever left this place to begin with. When I did leave my beliefs and practices didn't even change. Instead I just went through a lot of seemingly needless pain and rejection. I still think very highly of the Catholic friends I've had in my life who had a lot to do with this exploration, but I am very pained and disappointed at my experiences becoming a Catholic.

There seems to be this unstable part of my religious identity. The core beliefs and practices tend to remain the same now and have for years, but I occasionally go through these periods in which they change superficially. Then I bounce back to normal again.

I have seen quite a few other lurkers of online forums of a spiritual or religious orientation do this same thing -- often to a much more extreme degree than me. I'm just letting out some of these feelings. Thoughts?

I wish I had all the answers in my back pocket; and, I know at times maybe you want someone who will listen. I can offer practical (and common) advice about talking to the priests in the Church you are most comfortable. Here, our local parish has mini groups to help people on their path with Christ to God. I don't know if Cursillo is in Angelican sect but its in Roman Catholic and it helped me a lot when I was struggling. Its world wide; and, I read a lot of bad rep about it; but, that hasn't been my experience.

With me, I have jumped between three religions: Roman Catholicism, Paganism, and Nichiren Buddhism. I take a little bit of each. I feel that you can still keep a little bit of what other Church teaches without conflicting with your own.

For example, when I was a practicing Roman Catholic (I am still Catholic by sacrament) I loved praying to the Eucharist. That, actually, is a good idea. Do Angelicans see the Eucharist as RC do? I dont know if it matters, but siting in Eucharist adoration (or just praying with Christ-better wording), can help bunches. With me, I didn't pray to Christ as God.. so that was a big confliction. Yet, in my confusion I saw my ills etc die in His flesh and I felt much better after hours of silent devotion.

I had good experiences in the Church; and, I am surprised that other Churches don't always give the same experienses I had. I feel that if they did, many ex-catholics would still be Catholics.

What else? Oh, my flip floped mind. I went into Paganism (or more accurate, started practicing it) and I fell in love with it. I found I like folk practices and reverence to nature; but, I am not polytheistic and don't care to reconstruct old faiths. So, in that sense, I am not Pagan just a pagan practitioner. If you love nature, St. Francis of Assisi (I know there are others) connect with God through nature. Maybe you can find answers through God's creation?

My niche is Nichiren Buddhism. We believe that everyone is a Buddha. Everyone has the wisdom, compassion, etc inside them (not inherited sin) to where when one practices the Law, they will see this in themselves and in others. (Kind of like seeing Christ in yourself in others). I say this because it helps when I chant and pray. It also helps to be in communion with like minded people. Even more so, to your faith, Catholics give offerings to the Eucharist as we do to the Gohonzon (our sacrament). They give flowers, fruits, incense, etc.

Maybe giving offerings and finding a patron saint that mimics what you are experiencing may give you a different perspective on how to get through your instibility.

I can write a whole book on religion and spirituality. I guess I will stop here. Like Wilson Wilsoon said, don't be too hard on yourself. Find help with like minded people as well as us, find a community retreat or group that will support you in your faith.

If you decide to be Roman Catholic, then go for it. I will be honest, and this is my experience only, in Roman Catholicism there is a sense of "you Are the moral sin you commit" rather than "you commited Moral sin and you are a child of God". So, some priest may take sins differently than you may be accustomed to. Also, they are finally acknowledging, from what I remember, Anglicans and Othorodox to take communion on Easter Vigil and Christmas (dont know about anytime) so you can still be involved in the Church without taking the other sacraments just the Eucharist.

Anyway, take care of yourself.

Nam.

 

[Laika]

As a bisexual atheist, I've found many of the social conservative ideas that come from christianity's background influence have given me mental problems and made me anxious and depressed. it has led me to question my identity in often unexpected ways and I was surprised that christian influences had an effect at all (being an atheist) but our behaviour and beliefs are like a biographical record as we pick things up, often without realising. often its the inability to talk about these issues and "come out" (more often by degrees) which has been the problem. talking on RF, even though it is ananoymous and online has been a good outlet for that and gives me some measure of self-respect. the instability shouldn't be the thing that worries you as it is probably that you feel anxious about what other people think about your decisions, (you shouldn't; most people aren't bothered and those that are, it is generally out of a mixture of insecurity and hypocrisy, but feeling isolated sucks).

if you are unhappy, that is worth looking into and thinking about. my rule of thumb has become, is that you should try to believe in yourself and find a fulfilling life as best as is possible. religion or a belief system can give you a sense of purpose, belonging and a place in the world, but that should add to our lives. we can only expect god/fate/the world to do so much and look out for us. I mean this in the sense that the world can be cruel sometimes and that we have to be kind to ourselves as other people may not necessarily understand or recognise when we are going through difficult times. talking about it with decent people and having a support network helps. A church can do that (and that is something I miss out on as an atheist).

 

[EverChanging]

I wish I had all the answers in my back pocket; and, I know at times maybe you want someone who will listen. I can offer practical (and common) advice about talking to the priests in the Church you are most comfortable. Here, our local parish has mini groups to help people on their path with Christ to God. I don't know if Cursillo is in Angelican sect but its in Roman Catholic and it helped me a lot when I was struggling. Its world wide; and, I read a lot of bad rep about it; but, that hasn't been my experience.

Did you mean to say confession? I had terrible experiences with confession in Catholicism which is partly why I feel so messed up right now. I know from talking to other Catholics that much of my experience was not the norm here, especially since he was telling me that things were possibly hell-worthy sins that the church doesn't consider a sin at all. Confession in Anglicanism is optional. We also don't specify number and kind of sins, we only have to confess those things troubling the conscience that we may still be struggling with after private prayer, and there is greater weight given to individual conscience -- that is, the church doesn't list that such and such sins are mortal sins and if omitted in confession sacrilege is committed. I always had positive experiences with it in the Anglican church but right now after these experiences I want nothing to do with it. Much of the bad experience I had with it in Catholicism I think is the theology behind it -- I was becoming extremely scrupulous. Maybe when I'm feeling better I'll return to an Anglican confessor.

For example, when I was a practicing Roman Catholic (I am still Catholic by sacrament) I loved praying to the Eucharist. That, actually, is a good idea. Do Angelicans see the Eucharist as RC do? I dont know if it matters, but siting in Eucharist adoration (or just praying with Christ-better wording), can help bunches. With me, I didn't pray to Christ as God.. so that was a big confliction. Yet, in my confusion I saw my ills etc die in His flesh and I felt much better after hours of silent devotion.

Anglicans do see the Eucharist much the same way as Catholics, at least officially. But there are some differences in how the theology is expressed and conceived of. Adoration of the sacrament doesn't have much place in Anglicanism although in my parish during Holy Week people spend a holy hour praying in front of the Sacrament after it has been removed from the tabernacle on Maundy Thursday. But we do not use a separate rite of adoration in my parish. For most Anglicans who adore the sacrament, they primarily adore it during the mass. But since we reserve the sacrament most people in my parish do bow or genuflect -- so there is still some reverence we show to the sacrament even outside of the mass. I do enjoy silent prayer. Sometimes I attend the meditation group where we sit in the sanctuary in front of the tabernacle.

Thanks for the advice -- I enjoy learning about others' practices.

 

[EverChanging]

As a bisexual atheist, I've found many of the social conservative ideas that come from christianity's background influence have given me mental problems and made me anxious and depressed. it has led me to question my identity in often unexpected ways and I was surprised that christian influences had an effect at all (being an atheist) but our behaviour and beliefs are like a biographical record as we pick things up, often without realising.

I think this has had a lot to do with the distress I have been in.

My Anglican parish is very conservative and traditional by Episcopalian or Roman Catholic standards. That has a lot to do with my inability to adapt to Catholicism -- I'm not accustomed to modern liturgy at all. I'm used to solemnity, quiet, ritual, and beauty. And I need that contemplative space. There aren't just a lot of places I can go in society to simply be quiet or reflective. It's REALLY hard for me to have that taken away from the church and replaced with a bunch of bad music, noise, talking, and blandness.

Traditional liturgies are often associated with conservatism and contemporary liturgies with more liberal attitudes. But even though my Episcopal parish is still very conservative, the attitude among the Anglicans seems very live and let live. We now have an openly gay and partnered woman leading in the parish and people don't say any hateful word about it. No one asks me about my sexuality even though there are some people there whose views are less than flattering. But no one messes with me -- there is a level of respect there, to let people have their differences even if we disagree adamantly.

On the other hand in the Catholic contemporary liturgy I always felt like people were very suspicious of a Protestant coming from a traditional liturgical background. I never could adapt to their liturgy. And even though it was so much more modern the attitudes there toward gays are awful and there is this obsession with condoms and natural family planning and vaginal mucus and cycles and all this stuff. So it's not all that liberal despite their new liturgy and lack of ritual and quiet. It was just a very, very bad fit. I guess I thought that since I prayed more like a Catholic and I'd be in the majority there in the Roman Catholic Church (only a minority of Anglicans are very saint-oriented) that would outweigh everything. But in the end I realized a lot of Catholics didn't even know about or pray the Catholic devotions I had learned as an Anglican anyway.

if you are unhappy, that is worth looking into and thinking about. my rule of thumb has become, is that you should try to believe in yourself and find a fulfilling life as best as is possible. religion or a belief system can give you a sense of purpose, belonging and a place in the world, but that should add to our lives. we can only expect god/fate/the world to do so much and look out for us. I mean this in the sense that the world can be cruel sometimes and that we have to be kind to ourselves as other people may not necessarily understand or recognise when we are going through difficult times. talking about it with decent people and having a support network helps. A church can do that (and that is something I miss out on as an atheist).

Well I'm getting better now that I returned to my Anglican community even though my actual beliefs and practices are quite a bit different than any mainstream orthodoxy. I'm a lot happier. I just keep wondering why I would do all this to begin with. It seems obvious to me in retrospect that I couldn't ever fit in where I joined although I'm sure other Catholic parishes somewhere else could have worked out better.

A lot of it is that I am still very hurt. I could be wrong, but a lot of the bad treatment I was getting seemed to get worse when I told the priest I was gay. There are a lot of things I still admire about Catholicism. There are a lot of things in my Anglican parish that are very similar after all. But right now I'm just PISSED OFF. I heard so many homophobic things in such a brief time when I was in the Catholic Church. And every time I see the Pope on TV or hear the bishops' commentary on the US Supreme Court decision on same-sex marriage or hear more about the sex scandals, I'm just sickened.

It's not so much that the church teaches that homosexual acts are wrong that angers me, although I do think that is a harmful teaching. There are many people in my Anglican parish with that view. But it isn't shoved in my face and no one asks. But I was really upset when someone from the Catholic Church was asking me all these prying questions trying to figure out if I'm gay and all the talk I'm always hearing about homosexuality and sex in general in the Catholic parish. I just told her that we didn't ask people personal questions like that in the Anglican church and she stopped really fast.

It was in the Catholic Church that I first ever felt truly and consciously bad about being gay for the first time. It alarmed me to feel that because I have never felt that. And I've virtually never been in the closet either. Around the time I knew I was gay it was a matter of public knowledge shortly after that. Afterwards there were some people I lived with for a few months that I didn't tell about my sexuality but I didn't take strides to hide it either, just left it unstated. That was only a temporary situation for my safety too too -- I told them all as soon as I moved out. All my other family and friends still knew during that period. So I've never really known what it's like to really hide my sexuality, at least not for a long period of time, and I've never been ashamed of it. Afraid of peoples' reactions at times, or concerned for my safety, but ashamed? Never. I've always enjoyed being gay actually, wouldn't have it any other way. So I'm still very upset. I have been around many types of conservative Christians who had different views than me, but I have never had them ask prying questions or make fun of me or make me feel bad about myself for being gay until I was in the Catholic Church. And that really threw me off because none of my Catholic friends were ever homophobic in the slightest -- I never knew any that didn't support gay rights.

I'm venting. I'm still really sad about this because I understand why my Catholic friends love the church so much. I know there are a lot of great parishes and priests and there are plenty of welcoming gay-friendly Catholics. And I want to still remember what I initially loved in the church but it's really hard right now. I haven't been this angry in a long time. I guess it hurts a lot to have respect for something and then suffer this much disappointment and anguish. The priest was not really nice to me at all and was not a good confessor and would do things that I'm not sure were entirely respectful of the seal of secrecy.

All of this will pass in time. The good thing is that my old community is still there and not nosey at all. A lot of them don't even know I joined another community for a while.

Anyway, feels good to blow steam sometimes.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think this has had a lot to do with the distress I have been in.

My Anglican parish is very conservative and traditional by Episcopalian or Roman Catholic standards. That has a lot to do with my inability to adapt to Catholicism -- I'm not accustomed to modern liturgy at all. I'm used to solemnity, quiet, ritual, and beauty. And I need that contemplative space. There aren't just a lot of places I can go in society to simply be quiet or reflective. It's REALLY hard for me to have that taken away from the church and replaced with a bunch of bad music, noise, talking, and blandness.

Traditional liturgies are often associated with conservatism and contemporary liturgies with more liberal attitudes. But even though my Episcopal parish is still very conservative, the attitude among the Anglicans seems very live and let live. We now have an openly gay and partnered woman leading in the parish and people don't say any hateful word about it. No one asks me about my sexuality even though there are some people there whose views are less than flattering. But no one messes with me -- there is a level of respect there, to let people have their differences even if we disagree adamantly.

On the other hand in the Catholic contemporary liturgy I always felt like people were very suspicious of a Protestant coming from a traditional liturgical background. I never could adapt to their liturgy. And even though it was so much more modern the attitudes there toward gays are awful and there is this obsession with condoms and natural family planning and vaginal mucus and cycles and all this stuff. So it's not all that liberal despite their new liturgy and lack of ritual and quiet. It was just a very, very bad fit. I guess I thought that since I prayed more like a Catholic and I'd be in the majority there in the Roman Catholic Church (only a minority of Anglicans are very saint-oriented) that would outweigh everything. But in the end I realized a lot of Catholics didn't even know about or pray the Catholic devotions I had learned as an Anglican anyway.



Well I'm getting better now that I returned to my Anglican community even though my actual beliefs and practices are quite a bit different than any mainstream orthodoxy. I'm a lot happier. I just keep wondering why I would do all this to begin with. It seems obvious to me in retrospect that I couldn't ever fit in where I joined although I'm sure other Catholic parishes somewhere else could have worked out better.

A lot of it is that I am still very hurt. I could be wrong, but a lot of the bad treatment I was getting seemed to get worse when I told the priest I was gay. There are a lot of things I still admire about Catholicism. There are a lot of things in my Anglican parish that are very similar after all. But right now I'm just PISSED OFF. I heard so many homophobic things in such a brief time when I was in the Catholic Church. And every time I see the Pope on TV or hear the bishops' commentary on the US Supreme Court decision on same-sex marriage or hear more about the sex scandals, I'm just sickened.

It's not so much that the church teaches that homosexual acts are wrong that angers me, although I do think that is a harmful teaching. There are many people in my Anglican parish with that view. But it isn't shoved in my face and no one asks. But I was really upset when someone from the Catholic Church was asking me all these prying questions trying to figure out if I'm gay and all the talk I'm always hearing about homosexuality and sex in general in the Catholic parish. I just told her that we didn't ask people personal questions like that in the Anglican church and she stopped really fast.

It was in the Catholic Church that I first ever felt truly and consciously bad about being gay for the first time. It alarmed me to feel that because I have never felt that. And I've virtually never been in the closet either. Around the time I knew I was gay it was a matter of public knowledge shortly after that. Afterwards there were some people I lived with for a few months that I didn't tell about my sexuality but I didn't take strides to hide it either, just left it unstated. That was only a temporary situation for my safety too too -- I told them all as soon as I moved out. All my other family and friends still knew during that period. So I've never really known what it's like to really hide my sexuality, at least not for a long period of time, and I've never been ashamed of it. Afraid of peoples' reactions at times, or concerned for my safety, but ashamed? Never. I've always enjoyed being gay actually, wouldn't have it any other way. So I'm still very upset. I have been around many types of conservative Christians who had different views than me, but I have never had them ask prying questions or make fun of me or make me feel bad about myself for being gay until I was in the Catholic Church. And that really threw me off because none of my Catholic friends were ever homophobic in the slightest -- I never knew any that didn't support gay rights.

I'm venting. I'm still really sad about this because I understand why my Catholic friends love the church so much. I know there are a lot of great parishes and priests and there are plenty of welcoming gay-friendly Catholics. And I want to still remember what I initially loved in the church but it's really hard right now. I haven't been this angry in a long time. I guess it hurts a lot to have respect for something and then suffer this much disappointment and anguish. The priest was not really nice to me at all and was not a good confessor and would do things that I'm not sure were entirely respectful of the seal of secrecy.

All of this will pass in time. The good thing is that my old community is still there and not nosey at all. A lot of them don't even know I joined another community for a while.

Anyway, feels good to blow steam sometimes.

I so share your experience. I am lesbian and never gone throuh the "hit" until I joined the Church. I went to a baptisr Church years ago and even They were not as (I wouldnt say all) as pushful against homosexuality these days as Catholicsm. What got me, and I feel maybe Anglican is best fit fornwhat you are saying, is that in the Catechism it describes homosexuals as disturbed and called to cellibacy. What makes me mad is the Divine (I rarely say God) never shown me througb nature nor our natures that love is limited by gender.

I know this post wasnt meant for me. I just want to say before I head to sleep, I understand. The only other go-between I can think of in Churches of Catholicism and protestant other than the ones you mentioned is Lutheran. They dont see the Eucharist the same way Catholics do, but I dont know if their energy is different than the constricted one I get sometimes inside the Church.

Anyway, I meant confession. I wish you were over here. Priest are sooo nice. The one I met in NY told me "the devil made me do it" and somewhere else the priest yelled at me. Yet here, thr first priest I went to spent three hours listening ans talkingout my confession. I wish you can kinda interview priests. I also agree that the theology is a little hard to take in. If you feel comfortable actually praying in a Catholic Church, I amnsure that wont be a problem. I do get that "you dont belong here because youre gay" thing..so I never mentioned it outside confession. Which is sad. Go with what you are comfortable with.

I think God will back you either way.

Nam.

 

[Desert Snake]

I have noticed how powerful some of these churches and denominations really are. They 'provide' the spiritual needs for the adherents, but what if they don't? What you wrote, it seems like they are not providing what you need. The answer might be dropping the church attendance // This is going to depend on how much you need the.....support, or whatever your getting from church, the denomination.

 

[Laika]

I think this has had a lot to do with the distress I have been in.

My Anglican parish is very conservative and traditional by Episcopalian or Roman Catholic standards. That has a lot to do with my inability to adapt to Catholicism -- I'm not accustomed to modern liturgy at all. I'm used to solemnity, quiet, ritual, and beauty. And I need that contemplative space. There aren't just a lot of places I can go in society to simply be quiet or reflective. It's REALLY hard for me to have that taken away from the church and replaced with a bunch of bad music, noise, talking, and blandness.

Traditional liturgies are often associated with conservatism and contemporary liturgies with more liberal attitudes. But even though my Episcopal parish is still very conservative, the attitude among the Anglicans seems very live and let live. We now have an openly gay and partnered woman leading in the parish and people don't say any hateful word about it. No one asks me about my sexuality even though there are some people there whose views are less than flattering. But no one messes with me -- there is a level of respect there, to let people have their differences even if we disagree adamantly.

On the other hand in the Catholic contemporary liturgy I always felt like people were very suspicious of a Protestant coming from a traditional liturgical background. I never could adapt to their liturgy. And even though it was so much more modern the attitudes there toward gays are awful and there is this obsession with condoms and natural family planning and vaginal mucus and cycles and all this stuff. So it's not all that liberal despite their new liturgy and lack of ritual and quiet. It was just a very, very bad fit. I guess I thought that since I prayed more like a Catholic and I'd be in the majority there in the Roman Catholic Church (only a minority of Anglicans are very saint-oriented) that would outweigh everything. But in the end I realized a lot of Catholics didn't even know about or pray the Catholic devotions I had learned as an Anglican anyway.



Well I'm getting better now that I returned to my Anglican community even though my actual beliefs and practices are quite a bit different than any mainstream orthodoxy. I'm a lot happier. I just keep wondering why I would do all this to begin with. It seems obvious to me in retrospect that I couldn't ever fit in where I joined although I'm sure other Catholic parishes somewhere else could have worked out better.

A lot of it is that I am still very hurt. I could be wrong, but a lot of the bad treatment I was getting seemed to get worse when I told the priest I was gay. There are a lot of things I still admire about Catholicism. There are a lot of things in my Anglican parish that are very similar after all. But right now I'm just PISSED OFF. I heard so many homophobic things in such a brief time when I was in the Catholic Church. And every time I see the Pope on TV or hear the bishops' commentary on the US Supreme Court decision on same-sex marriage or hear more about the sex scandals, I'm just sickened.

It's not so much that the church teaches that homosexual acts are wrong that angers me, although I do think that is a harmful teaching. There are many people in my Anglican parish with that view. But it isn't shoved in my face and no one asks. But I was really upset when someone from the Catholic Church was asking me all these prying questions trying to figure out if I'm gay and all the talk I'm always hearing about homosexuality and sex in general in the Catholic parish. I just told her that we didn't ask people personal questions like that in the Anglican church and she stopped really fast.

It was in the Catholic Church that I first ever felt truly and consciously bad about being gay for the first time. It alarmed me to feel that because I have never felt that. And I've virtually never been in the closet either. Around the time I knew I was gay it was a matter of public knowledge shortly after that. Afterwards there were some people I lived with for a few months that I didn't tell about my sexuality but I didn't take strides to hide it either, just left it unstated. That was only a temporary situation for my safety too too -- I told them all as soon as I moved out. All my other family and friends still knew during that period. So I've never really known what it's like to really hide my sexuality, at least not for a long period of time, and I've never been ashamed of it. Afraid of peoples' reactions at times, or concerned for my safety, but ashamed? Never. I've always enjoyed being gay actually, wouldn't have it any other way. So I'm still very upset. I have been around many types of conservative Christians who had different views than me, but I have never had them ask prying questions or make fun of me or make me feel bad about myself for being gay until I was in the Catholic Church. And that really threw me off because none of my Catholic friends were ever homophobic in the slightest -- I never knew any that didn't support gay rights.

I'm venting. I'm still really sad about this because I understand why my Catholic friends love the church so much. I know there are a lot of great parishes and priests and there are plenty of welcoming gay-friendly Catholics. And I want to still remember what I initially loved in the church but it's really hard right now. I haven't been this angry in a long time. I guess it hurts a lot to have respect for something and then suffer this much disappointment and anguish. The priest was not really nice to me at all and was not a good confessor and would do things that I'm not sure were entirely respectful of the seal of secrecy.

All of this will pass in time. The good thing is that my old community is still there and not nosey at all. A lot of them don't even know I joined another community for a while.

Anyway, feels good to blow steam sometimes.

I think you have a good reason to vent. By the sounds of it, it would seem both your trust, privacy and faith were violated by anti-gays catholics. I know how you feel about wanting space to contemplate, as the "white noise" of the western world is hard to drown out. (I've stopped watching TV and reading the Newspapers and its helped as you don't have so much to worry about, or stuff on your mind. its a bit intrusive. just a thought.).

I don't think you should feel guilty about being attrached to the Catholic Church. (from what I know they have a rich intellectual tradition such as Thomas Aquinas work). it is not really your fault if you decide to try it out and you found the people there didn't respect you. it's their problem for not being able to love in the spirit of Christ. homophobia is irrational and can take you (and definetely me) by surprise as it challanges not only you notions of self but also your perceptions of the people around you. My parents "tolerate" my being bi, but it is something along the lines of "don't ask, don't tell" and that isn't a reciepe for self-respect as in a way they are disrespecting me by denying an aspect of my identity. I wonder if that is perhaps a reason why you left, because you wanted to be accepted as who you are. the feeling of rejection may well be deeper if you wanted to explore a way to have faith in a loving god and to love yourself. sometimes we want people to love us and it hurts when its not forthcoming (I have the same issue with the belief that people are inherently good, so I can relate to that).that is not something to feel ashamed of.

(free hug )

 

[EverChanging]

I have noticed how powerful some of these churches and denominations really are. They 'provide' the spiritual needs for the adherents, but what if they don't? What you wrote, it seems like they are not providing what you need. The answer might be dropping the church attendance // This is going to depend on how much you need the.....support, or whatever your getting from church, the denomination.

Well I don't think I should necessary stop church attendance altogether. The point of my thread is why the hell I thought I needed to go from a parish and beautiful liturgy I really loved to a noisy bland sex-obsessed homophobic parish I could never fit into? I just don't get why I would do that other than I was going through some hard stuff.

The quiet and contemplation of the liturgy in my Anglican parish does give me a safe space to be. If I was somewhere else and the only alternatives were the noisy happy clappy brand of liturgy I guess then I would have to consider not going to church at all because I just can't deal with that. There are Anglican/Episcopalian parishes with bad liturgies out there although I haven't seen any. It causes me mental pain to sit through a service like that. And if their music is really awful too that makes my stomach clench up. I really really just can't handle that, and it's not just the aesthetics. It just seems like toxin to me.

Unfortunately it seems like most western denominations and parishes are wanting to mess with their liturgies a lot and in many places there can be a lack of stability which is what I've always liked about my parish -- I can know exactly what to expect every single time. But then a new priest comes along and he fiddles with it and wants to destroy the chapel and get rid of the icons in it...*sigh* Fortunately he wasn't able to mess with the liturgy too much because the people won't have their sacred music taken away to be replaced with that awful fake rock, nondenom stuff with the drums and all.

So yeah, there are major issues with organized religion but I am generally happy with my parish and the priest couldn't change things too much without starting an uproar.

I have created my own rites and theologies that grow out of the Anglican liturgies and beliefs I am immersed in that fortunately no priest could ever take away. But it would be really sad if I couldn't find a solid Anglican liturgy because that is where my more personal spirituality organically developed from and I'm still extremely connected to the traditional Anglican liturgies and prayer books. There are lots of churches where the new priests take away the stained glass and altar rails and ancient hymns and old carved pews and anything resembling a sacred space and make it all...generic and fluffy. I just hope that trend dies out. Fortunately in the Episcopal Church there is still a significant high church and Anglo-Catholic party so I imagine there will always be a niche in the church for those who are accustomed to solemn liturgies and ritual. I hope anyway.

I am not exactly orthodox but I do have a strong mystical inclination. It can be difficult to be mystical and Christian because it seems almost all the clergy I know, even Anglican ones excluding those who identify as high church or Anglo-Catholic, are damned and determined to strip down the liturgies and even church architecture and art. I cried after that chapel was remodeled and all the art removed. I don't even know what happened to the icons. That same priest also wanted to get rid of one of the stained glass windows over the altar depicting the Blessed Virgin and the baby Jesus but there's no way the vestry is going to allow a window from the 1800s be removed from the parish! We had the bishop bless all the stained glass in a special ceremony already! I just don't understand it. I haven't even known secular people to have such disdain for sacred art. Why are the Christians disowning their own sacred art and dismantling their cathedrals and historic churches? In my experience the Catholic Church was actually worse on this than the Episcopal Church but it happens to our art and architecture and liturgies, too.

I try to just seek out the parishes that still respect these things and stay with those without worrying too much what the wider denomination does. Fortunately the damage that our priest inflicted in the Anglican parish is limited by the culture of the parish itself. The priest is the only one in the church who wants to get rid of the ancient hymns and the sacred art. Figures!