I see no value in atheism

[Willamena]

Did you just pretend that you didn't get the point? "Belief in god" is the same as "belief that god exists". The opposite is "belief that god doesn't exist".

And I agree with that, wholly. But it's not "belief in the non-existence of god"--that I don't agree with.
(And it's not "opposite," but I knew what you meant.)

 

[ArtieE]

Agnostics don't necessarily think it is unattainable. Only some do. And they certainly lack a belief in God's existence, right?

What about "agnostic theists"? Do they lack a belief in God's existence?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Nothing. You started the post that I had originally quoted was

I said "its been said. But its rarely true"

Nothing. You started the post that I had originally quoted was

I said "its been said. But its rarely true"

In your opinion ...fine..no worries...

 

[Nakosis]

For what I recall, atheists would say they lack a belief in God so they could claim they had no position to prove, whereas the theist possessing a positive belief had to support that positive position in their argument.

So what if someone was to claim they lacked a belief in atheism?

 

[ArtieE]

So what if someone was to claim they lacked a belief in atheism? [/quote]They lacked a belief in lack of belief?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Which is exactly a strawman since you only use your definition for others statements. You refuse to understand the difference thus continue in your strawman. Again look up the null hypothesis and apply this to any other claim, it is valid until falsified. Until the claim has falsified the null, the null still stands. Null is not a positive claim, it is the very first principle of falsification for all claims. This is the difference between strong atheism and weak, a point you refuse to understand. Either you are of incapable of doing so or unwilling to do so.

lecture3

People have put forward a supposedly conceivable god, it is this claim being addressed. You confuse disbelief with rejection of a fact.

Not believing in unicorn can be done via the null position as claims for unicorn's existence has not falsified the default position that unicorns do not exist.

I hate using Youtube but I will so you can get a picture of what I am talking about. Falsification has been the standard for decade in both philosophy and science. Atheism is just not a one off only one reasoning position. You do not seem to understand this. However this is not really my problem but solely on your inability in understand what people are telling you.

Ok...that's enough of this strawman strawman diversion...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

A clearer way to express what I suppose was meant would be: "So far, I am unconvinced that god(s) exist. So, for now, I will proceed on the basis that they don't. If I come across a good reason to believe in god(s), I will change my mind".

This is different from a firm conviction that there are no gods.

Sure....

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Do you believe that there is an elephant in my living room?

Why would I even care....c'mon!

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It would be equally valid because we can simply switch true with false for a definition of atheist and nothing would change except the uncertain folks would shift sides. There is really no reason to favor one course over the other.

If the claim "There definitely is no God" is made, nobody would "shift sides". The people who would agree with the claim would be atheists, while the people who reject the claim would be a mixture of theists and "weak" or "agnostic" atheists. The terms still apply.

Unknowns are simply on the fence.

How does that make them not atheists?

 

[Quagmire]

I think you are mistaken, as "disbelief" does not necessarily mean a belief in the opposite. If you do a quick look up, "disbelief" is defined as a lack of faith or belief.

Quote your source please.

the act of disbelieving : mental rejection of something as untrue

ie., an opinion that something is untrue, ie., a definite stance based on a conscious choice, rather than just the absence of agreement.

1.the inability or refusal to believe or to accept something as true.

the refusal to believe that something is true: He shook his head in disbelief when I told him about the crash

There is a definite theme throughout all of these definitions denoting a conscious choice resulting in a contrary, rather than a neutral, stance.

Thus, weak atheists still hold a "disbelief in the existence of God".

I disagree: the prefix "dis" almost always denotes opposition, rather than absence:

To DISHONOR someone doesn't just mean that you aren't honoring them atm, it means you're attempting to discredit or humiliate them.

To DISASSEMBLE something doesn't just mean you aren't assembling anything, it means you're taking something apart.

To DISLIKE someone doesn't denote indifference, it means to hold a negative opinion of them or to have negative emotions in regards to them.

To DISAGREE doesn't just imply a lack of agreement to any given proposition, it almost always means to hold a contrary opinion.

dis-1

• Examples
• Word Origin

1.
a Latin prefix meaning “apart,” “asunder,” “away,” “utterly,” or having a privative, negative, or reversing force (see de-, un-2.); used freely, especially with these latter senses, as an English formative:
disability; disaffirm; disbar; disbelief; discontent; dishearten; dislike; disown.

 

[Willamena]

ie., an opinion that something is untrue, ie., a definite stance based on a conscious choice, rather than just the absence of agreement.

A "mental rejection" isn't really a conscious choice. It happens despite you.

 

[Quagmire]

Just write "disbelief definition" in Google.

Here's what came up for me:

dis·be·lief
ˌdisbəˈlēf/
noun
noun: disbelief
inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real.
"Laura shook her head in disbelief"
synonyms: incredulity, astonishment, amazement, surprise, incredulousness;More
skepticism, doubt, doubtfulness, dubiousness;
cynicism, suspicion, distrust, mistrust;
formaldubiety
"she stared at him in disbelief"
lack of faith in something.
"I'll burn in hell for disbelief"
synonyms: atheism, nonbelief, unbelief, godlessness, irreligion, agnosticism, nihilism
"in the film religious faith and disbelief are interwoven"

The first definition that comes up lists "lack of belief" as a synonym.

Not only didn't that definition come up first when I googled disbelief "definition", it didn't come up at all.

 

[leibowde84]

Agnostic theists are indeed theists and agnostics.


I disagree that facts are distinct from knowledge.

What is your definition of a fact? And what word would you use to replace knowledge in the following sentence?

the man used his knowledge of random facts to help his team win the trivia contest.

 

[Willamena]

What is your definition of a fact? And what word would you use to replace knowledge in the following sentence?

Facts are true things, but they are not true apart knowing them.

the man used his knowledge of random facts to help his team win the trivia contest.

The man's "knowledge of random facts" is indistinct from his knowledge. The man used his knowledge to help his team win the trivia contest.

 

[Quagmire]

Those are all definitions of strong atheism.

Which is what I said they were. The disagreement we're having is about whether these definitions should be considered the default interpretation.

If we're going by majority and lack of qualifiers, it's pretty obvious that we should.

No they aren't. Webster's 2a and Dictionary.com 2 is the definition of "weak atheism".

Are we still talking about the definition of disbeleif? Or are we talking about the definition of ATHEISM again? Because dictionary.com 2 says:

amazement; astonishment:
We stared at the Taj Mahal in disbelief.

LOL. Most inclusive here means that weak atheism covers all atheists.

"Most inclusively" means in the broadest sense. The exact opposite of the most precise, or the most specific, or (usually) the most accurate.

What it means is "If we stretch the meaning a bit to cover a wider area than what's usually intented. . . "

 

[leibowde84]

Facts are true things, but they are not true apart knowing them.


The man's "knowledge of random facts" is indistinct from his knowledge. The man used his knowledge to help his team win the trivia contest.

And, how do you define knowledge in that sentence?

 

[Willamena]

And, how do you define knowledge in that sentence?

Knowledge is true belief of things, that is belief of things that happen to be true.

 

[Quagmire]

A "mental rejection" isn't really a conscious choice. It happens despite you.

Yes, and splitting hairs isn't necessarily something that a hot oil treatment will take care of.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The existence of a deity or separate independent being which controls, influences or otherwise acts on the universe or holds supreme authority over any aspect of reality does not exist.

There is only one consciousness which we all share and the existence of separate independent beings is an illusion. The experience of a God or Gods which exists separate from ourselves can be a real subjective experience. However the experience of all beings existing separate from ourselves remains an illusion even to the experience of a God or Devil.

I mostly agree...but conceptual reality is the 'fallen' nature of mortal beings, and so a dualistic perspective imagines 'God' to be outside/separate from them (btw, there is great evolutionary purpose in this..),and thus their concept is in error. But this is true for both atheists and theists whose present understanding is wholly based on a conception of God being separate...

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I disagree: the prefix "dis" almost always denotes opposition, rather than absence:

Just as the prefix 'A' denotes "without" or "not", as in the word "atheism" which means "without belief in God" or "not theistic".