God in mormonism

[Katzpur]

I'm just curious, for if someone has a book, any book, that they base their life upon it, in fact their eternal life upon what's written inside it, and it's not without error (not infallible or inerrant) how can one trust it with anything, as it might also be false?

Billions of Christians believe the Bible to be such a book -- one that they hold in the highest regard, despite the fact that it has been given to us through a process involving countless fallible human beings. A book need not be infallible or inerrant in order to be of great value. I suppose that if I were to base my eternal life on what was in a book (and on nothing else), it might be critical to me that it be letter-perfect (which is something I see as being next to impossible). But since I also believe that Jesus Christ continues to communicate with His Church through living prophets and apostles, just as He did in the years immediately following His death, I don't need to worry that a passage or two in the Bible might have been mistranslated, or that something might have been inadvertently omitted. At any rate, since the Bible doesn't tell us that it contains all of the truths God wants us to know, I see no reason to tell Him, in effect, that He might as well shut up because I'm done listening.

 

[Orontes]

I'm just curious, for if someone has a book, any book, that they base their life upon it, in fact their eternal life upon what's written inside it, and it's not without error (not infallible or inerrant) how can one trust it with anything, as it might also be false?

Did you proof read your post? As it’s written you’re asking how can one trust a book that has errors with their eternal life. Is that what you meant to ask? If that is your question, I would answer: they shouldn’t, not on any ultimate level.

If there is a text that moves one’s soul or they think has spiritual value, they should look to the source of that inspiration: not simply the written word, but to the power that informed those words. Personal revelation is the root of the devotional life, absent that one is left with bald assertion, mere tradition and/or dogmatism.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yes they can. I believe that is the true miracle of the gospel. Jesus turned water into wine - he can also turn a sinner into a saint. Jesus said "whatsoever you ask in faith shall be done unto you". Those who ask in faith for God to deliver them from all their sins will receive the desired blessing. Those who ask for God to deliver them from most sins but to also leave them to commit "a little sin" here and there will also receive what they have asked for.

Jesus, in Matthew 7, said:

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?​

So likewise what man is there who could ask God to free him from all sin, is freed only from some of them some of the time? There is none. Any man who gives their life over to the will of the Lord is upheld and sustained by God and God keeps him in the paths of righteousness and far from the power of the devil.

I understand and appreciate your perspective. If I may ask, what is your current religious belief system?

I'd add only this--like everyone reading this thread, I try to be very careful regarding my own eternal destiny. It's fine to use jargon like "paths of righteousness" in conversation but the student always asks, "What does that mean, for me, practically? How do I ever keep to those paths of righteousness so I receive eternal life?"

I think "perfect", which means "no sin, 100% righteous, nothing wrong in the slightest-most-infinitesimal amount" is a much harder standard than "paths of righteousness" or "far from the power of the devil". As a matter of fact, it's such a high standard, it exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees. It's such a high standard, it requires a God-lifting, as did removing the rock from Jesus's tomb and raising Jesus from the dead forever.

We are again back to the two kinds of Christians I meet:

* Jesus is enough

* Jesus is enough only if I also do my part

Salvation is by grace apart from works (Ephesians 2, John 3, John 5--okay, there are NINETY statements in John alone about salvation, none of which include works). Be cautious, I say!

 

[BilliardsBall]

I'm not going to debate you on this, BilliardsBall, particularly not on the LDS DIR. We're simply never going to interpret the scriptures the same way when it comes to salvation. About all I'm going to say is that it seems to me as if your focus is on being saved and Mormonism's focus is on becoming better people. You see Mormonism as putting too much emphasis on man's efforts. I see your religion as concerning itself too much with "what's in it for me?" and not enough with "how can I live in such a way that I can show my Savior that I love Him?" I wish you well, but I'm pretty much done with this particular conversation.

Thank you for your patience with me. I may keep on it a bit longer and ask more questions, because I've also seen on this thread there are varieties of belief within LDS regarding some of the issues.

The only exception I'd have to what you wrote is "what's in it for OTHER people." Since I was saved in 1990, I've never needed to do anything to get salvation. I'm committed to living a lifestyle that allows me to reach many people with the gospel--which, of course, is a part of being a better person. I spoke in person with an LDS elder on mission yesterday, and he said, "Keep doing what you're doing. That's what I'm doing too." I could sit at home with my own salvation, and that would be pathetic of me.

Thanks again.

 

[BilliardsBall]

This statement is a non sequitur. The adverb adds nothing relevant to the point. It is the same as if one were to reply "God isn't good, He's super duper marvelously good". The base issue is if you recognized God as a moral being. If so, then:

1) God is good (post #157)
2) Men must be like God to be saved (per your post #85)
3) Then, men must be good to be saved.

Your acceptance of 1) and 2) show you are drawing the wrong conclusions. You cannot escape the moral element to salvation which means free agency is intrinsic to the process. You don't understand you own viewpoint.




Just as an aside, the above statement is problematic. It embraces modalism, a fundamental heresy condemned early on in Christian trinitarian circles. It also runs afoul of the very Bible you appeal to. Christ is a resurrected being and stressed that point to His disciples. This means He has a body. He did not die a second time.

Of course men must be good to be saved. I concur. However, regarding the initial moment of salvation, Jesus only saved bad people. He spoke about being a doctor to those who recognize their sick, not well, state. It logically proceeds that the same devil who tells men "You're good enough without Christ" tells us Christians "You're not good enough for Christ" after salvation. Sad!

Jesus did not die a second time, yes. I may have missed your point. Sorry.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I'm just curious, for if someone has a book, any book, that they base their life upon it, in fact their eternal life upon what's written inside it, and it's not without error (not infallible or inerrant) how can one trust it with anything, as it might also be false?

If we're talking about trusting books, let's start with non-inerrant writings. I've owned science textbooks with mistakes in them including grammar or not having been updated with the latest facts, yet followed the advice within not to consume sulfuric acid. This--can you believe it--having never seen ANYONE drink sulfuric acid?!

Next, we must consider whether someone can be 100% accurate in writing. I've gotten some 100s on school quizzes, indicating I answered all examination questions truthfully and rightly. The Bible claims 100% accuracy and trustworthiness both. That the people writing it got 100 on their "exams".

There are some people and books you trust. Add the Bible and Jesus to the list as most important, if you haven't done so already!

Thanks.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Did you proof read your post? As it’s written you’re asking how can one trust a book that has errors with their eternal life. Is that what you meant to ask? If that is your question, I would answer: they shouldn’t, not on any ultimate level.

If there is a text that moves one’s soul or they think has spiritual value, they should look to the source of that inspiration: not simply the written word, but to the power that informed those words. Personal revelation is the root of the devotional life, absent that one is left with bald assertion, mere tradition and/or dogmatism.

Well said! May I add personal devotions rooted in the scriptures? Psalm 119 is over 100 verses extolling the wisdom of such a lifestyle.

 

[Thanda]

I understand and appreciate your perspective. If I may ask, what is your current religious belief system?

I'm Mormon

I'd add only this--like everyone reading this thread, I try to be very careful regarding my own eternal destiny. It's fine to use jargon like "paths of righteousness" in conversation but the student always asks, "What does that mean, for me, practically? How do I ever keep to those paths of righteousness so I receive eternal life?"

I won't pretend to know what it means exactly (I'm still searching for the path) but in my reflections I see the path as something the disciple would only ever see a little at a time. I see him consulting with his Lord on a daily basis. I see him having a quiet spirit so he can always here what his Lord would have him do. He runs to his God whenever he sees sin at the door as a child runs to his father when he is in danger.

There is a verse in the Book of Mormon which captures my interest every time I read it. In Alma 13:

12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.​

I imagine God is like this. And I imagine this is what he wishes we should become

I think "perfect", which means "no sin, 100% righteous, nothing wrong in the slightest-most-infinitesimal amount" is a much harder standard than "paths of righteousness" or "far from the power of the devil". As a matter of fact, it's such a high standard, it exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees. It's such a high standard, it requires a God-lifting, as did removing the rock from Jesus's tomb and raising Jesus from the dead forever.

Do not forget that the pharisees were not righteous. Nitpicking over rules and being merciless and unloving is being very far from perfection. Jesus said the pharisees put burdens on people back they were not willing to lift with their little finger. He said the pharisees say but do not do. Clearly the pharisees were anything but righteous.

And you're perfectly right: perfection is a very high standard and it is impossible for man to do it. "But with God, nothing shall be impossible".

We are again back to the two kinds of Christians I meet:

* Jesus is enough

* Jesus is enough only if I also do my part

I would like to explain something about human nature that will help you understand why I don't believe in the "once saved always saved" doctrine.

I believe God grants to man according to the desires of his heart. All who want to be saved will be saved and those who do not want to be saved will not be saved. But now we come to the question of wanting: how do you determine what a person wants?

There have been moments in my life when I've wanted to be a soldier (as I'm sure is true of most boys). But did I really want to be a soldier? Of course not. Sure I loved the glamour I thought was involved. I loved how cool it would be to carry big guns and be a hero. But did I really want to put my life in danger and be far from home for months at a time? No. So human desire is a very complex science. What someone wants today is not necessarily what they'll want tomorrow. In fact, human desire is so complex humans themselves don't usually know what they want. This is why someone can be christian today, muslim tomorrow and atheist the day thereafter. So how can you judge what some really wants? This question is extremely important especially as it regards our eternal fate.

Jesus gave a parable to illustrate how God decides. It is found in Luke 18:

1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:

3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.

4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;

5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.​

God requires patience and perseverance from his children. And those who persevere in the strait and narrow path show to God, the world and, perhaps most importantly, that they really want what they seek. So when I say that salvation requires something from our part it is not because I believe God is not powerful enough. It is because I believe God is a just Judge. I believe God gives us our lives here on earth mostly so we can discover and decide what we really want. And that is why the final Judgement comes only after death when we have had ample opportunity to make that decision.

 

[Orontes]

Of course men must be good to be saved. I concur. However, regarding the initial moment of salvation, Jesus only saved bad people. He spoke about being a doctor to those who recognize their sick, not well, state. It logically proceeds that the same devil who tells men "You're good enough without Christ" tells us Christians "You're not good enough for Christ" after salvation. Sad!

Jesus did not die a second time, yes. I may have missed your point. Sorry.

1) God is good (post #157)
2) Men must be like God to be saved (per your post #85)
3) Then, men must be good to be saved.

OK. You've accepted your own language that informs the syllogism. Now lets' flush out what the conclusion means. Consider this statement of yours:

Of course men must be good to be saved. I concur. However, regarding the initial moment of salvation, Jesus only saved bad people

Recall your bus salvation analogy. I asked you how you got on the bus. You said, you got on the bus (post 99). It was your act. This means you recognize choice and men (including yourself) are able to perform good acts. Therefore, whatever larger meaning you are thinking of when you say 'bad people' the same are still able to act morally. At the root of your position is a recognition of personal freedom and responsibility.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I'm Mormon



I won't pretend to know what it means exactly (I'm still searching for the path) but in my reflections I see the path as something the disciple would only ever see a little at a time. I see him consulting with his Lord on a daily basis. I see him having a quiet spirit so he can always here what his Lord would have him do. He runs to his God whenever he sees sin at the door as a child runs to his father when he is in danger.

There is a verse in the Book of Mormon which captures my interest every time I read it. In Alma 13:

12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.​

I imagine God is like this. And I imagine this is what he wishes we should become



Do not forget that the pharisees were not righteous. Nitpicking over rules and being merciless and unloving is being very far from perfection. Jesus said the pharisees put burdens on people back they were not willing to lift with their little finger. He said the pharisees say but do not do. Clearly the pharisees were anything but righteous.

And you're perfectly right: perfection is a very high standard and it is impossible for man to do it. "But with God, nothing shall be impossible".



I would like to explain something about human nature that will help you understand why I don't believe in the "once saved always saved" doctrine.

I believe God grants to man according to the desires of his heart. All who want to be saved will be saved and those who do not want to be saved will not be saved. But now we come to the question of wanting: how do you determine what a person wants?

There have been moments in my life when I've wanted to be a soldier (as I'm sure is true of most boys). But did I really want to be a soldier? Of course not. Sure I loved the glamour I thought was involved. I loved how cool it would be to carry big guns and be a hero. But did I really want to put my life in danger and be far from home for months at a time? No. So human desire is a very complex science. What someone wants today is not necessarily what they'll want tomorrow. In fact, human desire is so complex humans themselves don't usually know what they want. This is why someone can be christian today, muslim tomorrow and atheist the day thereafter. So how can you judge what some really wants? This question is extremely important especially as it regards our eternal fate.

Jesus gave a parable to illustrate how God decides. It is found in Luke 18:

1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:

3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.

4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;

5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.​

God requires patience and perseverance from his children. And those who persevere in the strait and narrow path show to God, the world and, perhaps most importantly, that they really want what they seek. So when I say that salvation requires something from our part it is not because I believe God is not powerful enough. It is because I believe God is a just Judge. I believe God gives us our lives here on earth mostly so we can discover and decide what we really want. And that is why the final Judgement comes only after death when we have had ample opportunity to make that decision.

You see someone struck by a car. You rush to aid them and they say, "I'm bleeding out here! Please, I have seconds to live. How may I be okay with God?!"

Your response would be...?

 

[BilliardsBall]

1) God is good (post #157)
2) Men must be like God to be saved (per your post #85)
3) Then, men must be good to be saved.

OK. You've accepted your own language that informs the syllogism. Now lets' flush out what the conclusion means. Consider this statement of yours:



Recall your bus salvation analogy. I asked you how you got on the bus. You said, you got on the bus (post 99). It was your act. This means you recognize choice and men (including yourself) are able to perform good acts. Therefore, whatever larger meaning you are thinking of when you say 'bad people' the same are still able to act morally. At the root of your position is a recognition of personal freedom and responsibility.

Yes, and God holds people accountable for their acts, both believers and unbelievers. Perhaps we can agree that whether it is a work, a volitional act, or faith, the Bible teaches that one must trust Jesus to be saved. That is my understanding.

 

[Thanda]

You see someone struck by a car. You rush to aid them and they say, "I'm bleeding out here! Please, I have seconds to live. How may I be okay with God?!"

Your response would be...?

I would tell him how to START being okay with God. I would urge him to pray and leave the rest to God

 

[Orontes]

Yes, and God holds people accountable for their acts, both believers and unbelievers. Perhaps we can agree that whether it is a work, a volitional act, or faith, the Bible teaches that one must trust Jesus to be saved. That is my understanding.

I agree.

Note: a work and/or a volitional act are the same thing. Faith is also a type of work as it is a volitional act, the same with trusting.

As we agree on people being accountable for their acts: just as you got on the bus to salvation (I assume your being saved means bound for heaven?), one must also have the ability to get off. No one can be drug to heaven against their will and no one's will can be supplanted and still maintain a moral system.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I would tell him how to START being okay with God. I would urge him to pray and leave the rest to God

I would tell him the same. However, I'm unsure how he could accomplish the objectives you cited in the moments he has remaining. "Be patient, study, practice," etc.

I would say, "Receive what Jesus has done for us. He died to pay for 100% of our sin."

 

[BilliardsBall]

I agree.

Note: a work and/or a volitional act are the same thing. Faith is also a type of work as it is a volitional act, the same with trusting.

As we agree on people being accountable for their acts: just as you got on the bus to salvation (I assume your being saved means bound for heaven?), one must also have the ability to get off. No one can be drug to heaven against their will and no one's will can be supplanted and still maintain a moral system.

Unless trusting Jesus is like jumping off a cliff. One cannot undo gravity. One chooses to get onto the vertical bus. How about instead of a bus we have a Flood and an ark?! "Get on the ark and be saved, says God to Noah."

 

[Thanda]

I would tell him the same. However, I'm unsure how he could accomplish the objectives you cited in the moments he has remaining. "Be patient, study, practice," etc.

I would say, "Receive what Jesus has done for us. He died to pay for 100% of our sin."

Happily I am sure God will give him a chance to "be patient, study and practice" in the life to come.

I remember reading a book called A man for all Seasons. It is a play on Sir/Saint Thomas More. He was persecuted for refusing to recognize the king of England as the head of the church. When he was asked why didn't spare himself all the trouble by just going with the flow he replied with something to the effect *paraphrasing* "How can I expect to get into heaven without struggle when my Lord himself did not get in there without suffering"

"And though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered". If Christ had to go through experiences in order to learn obedience who are you are I to suddenly know it in a split second just before death? Or who are you or I to get into heaven having never learned that obedience?

I hope a heaven where the people who are there have received proper and thorough preparation.

 

[Orontes]

Unless trusting Jesus is like jumping off a cliff. One cannot undo gravity. One chooses to get onto the vertical bus. How about instead of a bus we have a Flood and an ark?! "Get on the ark and be saved, says God to Noah."

Nothing compelled Noah to either build or get on the ark.

So, per your analogy one can feely get on the bus, but never leave. They are enslaved. This is an evil system. It's also irrational.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Happily I am sure God will give him a chance to "be patient, study and practice" in the life to come.

I remember reading a book called A man for all Seasons. It is a play on Sir/Saint Thomas More. He was persecuted for refusing to recognize the king of England as the head of the church. When he was asked why didn't spare himself all the trouble by just going with the flow he replied with something to the effect *paraphrasing* "How can I expect to get into heaven without struggle when my Lord himself did not get in there without suffering"

"And though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered". If Christ had to go through experiences in order to learn obedience who are you are I to suddenly know it in a split second just before death? Or who are you or I to get into heaven having never learned that obedience?

I hope a heaven where the people who are there have received proper and thorough preparation.

Because the Bible literally says, "Taking vengeance in flaming fire on all those who did not obey the gospel," which is different than learning obedience in general practice. Also, because I've been searching the scriptures trying to better understand your perspective, while finding nothing about post-death redemption.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Nothing compelled Noah to either build or get on the ark.

So, per your analogy one can feely get on the bus, but never leave. They are enslaved. This is an evil system. It's also irrational.

Paul talks about being enslaved, giving an excluded middle, slave to righteousness or slave to sin. I cannot, I have no choice in this matter, I cannot worship Satan. I just cannot do so. My nature is changed, if you prefer, and I follow my nature.

I don't know if LDS theology addresses middle knowledge or God's inability to do evil. I believe God acts however He wishes, however, God's nature is good. He has free will but only can do what is consistent in Himself.

By the way, I must be misunderstanding how you would call a salvation to Heaven system "an evil system"? What I mean by that is not that I'm making a pejorative remark against you but rather that my free will cannot be more powerful than God's free will, can it?

Would it be better to simply say that the bus driver stops for us and says, "Next stop, Heaven!" I was on a bus the other day where someone asked to be let out in a dangerous place mid-block, and the bus driver said, "We have to go to the next stop. That is the rule."

 

[Thanda]

Because the Bible literally says, "Taking vengeance in flaming fire on all those who did not obey the gospel," which is different than learning obedience in general practice. Also, because I've been searching the scriptures trying to better understand your perspective, while finding nothing about post-death redemption.

The Gospel is all of Jesus teachings not just his suffering on the cross.

Try reading 1 Peter 3:18 to 4:6