From one Christian personally view

[sojourner]

Why? I just asked an innocent question. The answer was that it was a stupid question, so I am not sure who needs to improve his retorical skills. Incidentally, I am not the first to ask this question, which is probably as old as Christianity.

The question wasn't all that "innocent." it was meant to provoke.

I don't think it is a valid defense. It isn't because it is based on assumptions that are nowhere to be found in the Bible. All we read is "love your enemy" without any strings attached.

I've already given you a reasonable answer here, and revealed the parameters of that command. you needn't push a bad position.

And as I said, commanding to oppose, with everything we got, the devil, the creator of lies, does not entail logically that we should not love him.

We cannot love ideas and principles in the same way that we love people. "Love" is a many-faceted concept, whose best verbal expression isn't English.

I expect we should oppose Hitler as well, the creator of destruction and murder, but that does not entail we (or, better, Christians) should not love him.

Opposition =/= "not loving."

Actually, every Christian should love Hitler, Stalin or Gengis Khan for they were definitely not spirits.

Correct.

I actually love to be proven wrong. Everytime it happens, I learned something new. So, show me your biblical evidence that we should not love Satan.

Asked and answered.

Do you only give weight with opinions you agree with?

No, I only lend weight to those who present valid arguments.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I believe Christianity teaches understanding, tolerance, patience, persuasion with reason, and forgiveness.

What are the odds of someone like me still staying here for about two years, a Saudi Arabian Middle Eastern Muslim? I tolerated insults against my religion and lots of passive-aggressive attitude (some I interpreted as insults) against my race and nationality. If I could do that, you surely can do that.

Be understanding, kind, patient and forgiving, with style and reasoning, with those opposing you, and you could even win them as friends. It happened with someone like me.

Remember, "style" has to be there (hint: thumbs up)

 

[viole]

The question wasn't all that "innocent." it was meant to provoke.

Come on. Even a child would have asked that. Love your enemy. Satan is your enemy. So, mom, do we love Satan?
It comes pretty natural.

I've already given you a reasonable answer here, and revealed the parameters of that command. you needn't push a bad position.

I prefer to see evidence rather than hearing reasonable answers. Where is your biblical evidence?

We cannot love ideas and principles in the same way that we love people. "Love" is a many-faceted concept, whose best verbal expression isn't English.

Actually, I do not care what the semantics of love is. You can replace it with xy. If you must xy your enemy, and Satan is your enemy, then it follows, by modus ponens, that you should xy Satan. For any xy.

Opposition =/= "not loving."

Agreed.

Asked and answered.

An answer that does not contain any biblical evidence. Unfortunately.

No, I only lend weight to those who present valid arguments.

Well, than say that from the start. You said you do not give any weight because we disagree, not because my arguments are not valid. Not the same thing at all. Are you trying to compete with the Bible when it comes to clarity?

Ciao

- viole

 

[sojourner]

Come on. Even a child would have asked that.

You're not a child. At some point, you stop asking, "Why is the sky blue?"

Love your enemy. Satan is your enemy. So, mom, do we love Satan?
It comes pretty natural.

And that question has been asked and answered. Several times. Go to sleep!

I prefer to see evidence rather than hearing reasonable answers. Where is your biblical evidence?

Asked and answered.

Actually, I do not care what the semantics of love is. You can replace it with xy.

Not true. In Greek, (the language of the text you cite here), there are several completely different terms for the one English term "love." While eros, for example, may be applicable in some cases of human relationship, it is not apropos in all cases.

An answer that does not contain any biblical evidence. Unfortunately.

I'm not going to get dragged into some puerile, sola scriptura-based argument. The answer doesn't have to be strictly "biblical" in order to be valid here.

You said you do not give any weight because we disagree

No, I didn't.

 

[viole]

I'm not going to get dragged into some puerile, sola scriptura-based argument. The answer doesn't have to be strictly "biblical" in order to be valid here.

Of course not. For you have no biblical evidence whatsoever, while I do. You are just unable to present any evidence that there are exceptions to the clear-cut commandement that you should love your enemy. You just made that evidence up, as it seems. To make an example, some Catholics would disagree with you, and they do not follow sola scriptura, either.

And if sola scriptura is to be taken with a grain of salt, what prevents me from saying that "love thy enemy" is probably a metaphor not to be taken literarily?

Ciao

- viole

 

[sojourner]

Of course not. For you have no biblical evidence whatsoever, while I do.

You have nothing of the sort.

And if sola scriptura is to be taken with a grain of salt, what prevents me from saying that "love thy enemy" is probably a metaphor not to be taken literarily?

Textual criticism.

 

[viole]

You have nothing of the sort.

Of couese I do. i have a clear cut statement from the Bible. You have no evidence that there are restrictions to it.

Textual criticism.

And what on earth is textual criticism? Can you expand on that? How does this criticism prove your point?

Ciao

- viole

 

[sojourner]

And what on earth is textual criticism?

Ciao

- viole

It's that scholastic discipline you know nothing about that partially allows us to actually discern what these ancient texts are saying, through a process of determine what sort of literature we're reading and, thus, how the texts are to be treated. That you know nothing about it speaks volumes against your "take" on the text you've put forward here.

You know only that "your leg hurts." So you take an aspirin. Never mind that your leg pain could be caused by edema, thrombosis, or cellulitis, none of which are treatable with an aspirin, and any of which could be life-threatening. But you can't be bothered with a doctor, who knows about these things, because the aspirin bottle "says" it treats pain, and he hasn't provided you with any labeling "proof" that you could die from not treating it the right way.

 

[outhouse]

My only contention is that you are contradicting the requests from Jesus to love your enemies,

But its not a literal statement, context is key, and textual criticism helps place this into context of the time.

If jesus loved his enemies, why did he supposedly beat them out of the temple?

 

[kepha31]

But its not a literal statement, context is key, and textual criticism helps place this into context of the time.

If jesus loved his enemies, why did he supposedly beat them out of the temple?

Because He wasn't a hippie flower child from the '60's.

 

[suncowiam]

The past few days I've been in some heated debates. I got some stuff on my mind I need to rant on and get out. First off please take a second and step out of your own views and just please listen to what I am about to say. Second if you guys don't want me on here anymore I will leave. You'll have to tell me how to delete my account but I won't come back. With that said let's begin.

I think people see me lately as some hateful Christian. Or some anti gay person. Which is not true in all counts. In fact I am for equal rights. I don't believe in pushing my views on people. I just don't care having people do the same on me.

But lately I feel like that is kind of what been happing. I have battle with many non Christians on message boards since my teens years when I was on AOL teen boards all the way to when I was in my mid twenties and I left that board finally when it was closing down to join with AOL Christian Singles board and then a non Religion board where I met Jo at I believe. I went on to a friend board where I spent a few years on there until I finally left and started debating on Facebook groups for a few months before stumbling on to this place in my tablet one day when I missed message boards.

I remember one thing my grandpa told me when I was a teenager. Never debate two things with people: Politics and Religion. Both brings out the nasty in everyone. He is very right on that. God knows it bring out the nasty out of me a lot of times. It's funny I try so hard to run away from message boards and fighting. My wife never could understand why I enjoy debating on message boards. I think it's a guy thing personally for me. I can't fight off line. I don't have a health body and never had one growing up. So I think when I am on message boards or Facebook groups I let out the nasty side of myself I keep buried deep inside. I think a lot of people do that. When you are on a message board you don't know the person on the other side so when you insult the person it does not effect you cause hey you don't know them. You often forget that the person on the other side is still another human being with emotions.

As a Christian I often keep hearing about respecting their views and ideas. I don't mind respecting others I just ask for the same thing back. I ask that people respect mine and see I am not some heartless anti gay basher or anything like that. In fact if I was I would not be for equal rights, hello lol. But I am a Christian and here is where it get's really hard. You see as a Christian I am supposed to hold close to what the word of God says. That is my guide book to all things Christ 101. If God says something is a sin I need to view it as sin also. I often battle real bad off line with the idea of sin. I hate sin. I see how sin has destroy so many lifes including my dad who died just a few years after I met him as a teenager. I see how it can do so much damage to people that is why I believe it does lead to death. One way or another it leads to death.

As a Christian it is not easy to stand up for what God says. That is why he wants us to have our spiritual armor on IMO. He knew it would not be easy at all for us. That we would struggle in this world since we do not belong in this world but just passing through until we get back home when we die.

It is not easy for me ether to stand there and tell gay people they are sinning. It is not easy for me to stand there and say in God's eyes you are wrong. I got people I love dearly who are gay. I have never said that to their faces just yet cause I love them so much. But I want people to know it is not easy for us Christians to do that. You guys ever stop to think that you guys are the lucky ones right now. Before I became a born again I never felt guilt or anything. After I became a born again I begin to hear God's voice speaking to me and when ever I made a mistake I would hear him leading me down a different path after picking me up. In some area it is not real hard to be a Christian but in others like the gay issue it is hard as hell cause I know what God says but still I have another side that loves people. But I also love God so much that it hurts. So I want you guys to know it is not easy for me to stand on what God says in this issues but as a Christian I have to do that.

Now I want to talk about one more thing before ending this. I have often heard people call God a monster and all kinds of mean names. That effects me deeply cause on a personally note Christ is the only father I have ever had. Unless you are a born again I am sure you won't ever understand what I mean by that.

When I came to know him personally it was not an Atheist, or a Muslim or any other Faith based person that came into my broken world in 2000 when I was sitting on the steps in my old high school. It was a girl name Holly. A born again who just wanted me to know God loved me. I remember sitting with my headphones on slipknot wait and bleed playing and dress in black and baggie sweets on (like I still do). She saw a lonely teenager who was close to death and God lead her into my broken world.

You see my world has been a broken world. Broken promises from so many people. I battle fibromyalgia every day. I worked for 13 years as a bag boy from August of 01 until August of last year. I was just four days from 13 years when my body finally said screw you I am done. I have not been the same since. I have battle real bad pain. I can't even sleep unless I take pain pills. We are trying to get me back on SS. I was on it as a teenager. Until they said I was normal. Then they threw me in the system. The system still saw me as handicap and I went through 13 years of really bad hell. Stuff I can't even talk about. When I met my wife I was living on my own. been doing that since 02. I met her in 2011. we we're married 11 months later. now it has been three years. I've learned so much in those three years. But I still am a broken man. We are battling with money issues and my health. I often do think about turning my back on God complete and humanity and just stay in my world of depression. Depression can be so comfortable at times but it can also hurt so much that damage can be unfixed if you don't watch out.

Of course no matter how much I want to turn my back on God at times I never will. Cause I keep feeling him telling me to keep going. That soon that desert will be gone. You see I am a broken man who need salvation and found in the cross. Most Christians will tell you the same thing. They are broken people who need the cross. I hope you guys see how personally this way for me to talk about. I hope you guys can show some kind of respect in this thread and see this all came from my heart. I am not that different from you guys. I bleed red just like you. I love horror movies and super hero movies and I enjoy video games and rock and pop and rap. Both secular and Christian. I am just Ben. A broken man who's only hope in this world is Christ. Thank you for taking the time to read this thread. Sorry it is long I just had to get this all off my chest. Thanks

Dude,
Stop blaming things on your God. Take responsibility for who you are. If you condemn people that is your choice. When you choose to argue with non religioners you know they don't believe in your God. If you bring God in the equation then just like anything else in a proper debate, you have to prove your basis, your foundation. If you can't then it just comes off as personal beliefs, opinions, which makes you look like a gay basher as you self describe.

You can't have it both ways. You can't assert that homosexuality is a sin and hope to have gays accept you. Just stand your ground, be yourself, debate or not debate on these message boards. It's very unreaslistic to be accepted by everyone.

 

[JoStories]

I believe Christianity teaches understanding, tolerance, patience, persuasion with reason, and forgiveness.

What are the odds of someone like me still staying here for about two years, a Saudi Arabian Middle Eastern Muslim? I tolerated insults against my religion and lots of passive-aggressive attitude (some I interpreted as insults) against my race and nationality. If I could do that, you surely can do that.

Be understanding, kind, patient and forgiving, with style and reasoning, with those opposing you, and you could even win them as friends. It happened with someone like me.

Remember, "style" has to be there (hint: thumbs up)

Smart Guy, I am so sorry you have had to endure such insults. I cannot imagine a kinder and nicer poster. And while I have only been here a short while really, a few months now, I, too, have endured insults against my sexual orientation. Its hard to not take offense when one is being told one is damned or that they are unnatural, etc. However, I totally agree that being kind is a much better approach. One I try very hard to utilize, however, I admit I have gotten miffed and I am far from innocent.

 

[JoStories]

Of couese I do. i have a clear cut statement from the Bible. You have no evidence that there are restrictions to it.



And what on earth is textual criticism? Can you expand on that? How does this criticism prove your point?

Ciao

- viole

I am forced to agree with Sojourner here Viole. IMO, you're wrong. Contest is everything and Ben has answered you, several times. From my POV, I would likely perceive your questions as baiting as well.

 

[viole]

But its not a literal statement, context is key, and textual criticism helps place this into context of the time.

If jesus loved his enemies, why did he supposedly beat them out of the temple?

Simple. He did not consider them His enemies, or beating people out of a temple does not entail not loving them. Tough love, I guess

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

It's that scholastic discipline you know nothing about that partially allows us to actually discern what these ancient texts are saying, through a process of determine what sort of literature we're reading and, thus, how the texts are to be treated. That you know nothing about it speaks volumes against your "take" on the text you've put forward here.

You know only that "your leg hurts." So you take an aspirin. Never mind that your leg pain could be caused by edema, thrombosis, or cellulitis, none of which are treatable with an aspirin, and any of which could be life-threatening. But you can't be bothered with a doctor, who knows about these things, because the aspirin bottle "says" it treats pain, and he hasn't provided you with any labeling "proof" that you could die from not treating it the right way.

Very well. Then show me your evidence based on textual criticism. By the way, my Catholic friend told me that she learned at Catholic school from a nun that we should love Satan, as well. They also seem to have missed your criticism.

What interests me is: what reasons can we induce from textual criticism that logically justifies that we should love Hitler and not necessarily Satan, if they are both our enemies?

Ciao

- viole

 

[sojourner]

Very well. Then show me your evidence based on textual criticism. By the way, my Catholic friend told me that she learned at Catholic school from a nun that we should love Satan, as well. They also seem to have missed your criticism.

What interests me is: what reasons can we induce from textual criticism that logically justifies that we should love Hitler and not necessarily Satan, if they are both our enemies?

Ciao

- viole

The injunction to love our enemies is found in Matthew 5, in the midst of the Sermon on the Mount. This is one of 5 sermons found in Matthew, four of which point to the central sermon that contains the crux of Matthew's gospel message, which is to not differentiate between "the good people" and "the bad people," for the kingdom consists of both, and we can't always tell the difference.

The whole of the Sermon on the Mount deals with human relationships. The section wherein is found the passage in question uses the terms "neighbors" and "brothers and sisters." These refer to human relationships. This isn't some treatise on "how to do spiritual battle." It's a treatise on how to treat people. Satan isn't "people." Satan is a concept wrapped in an avatar.

We love Hitler, because Hitler is part of the human family, of which everyone is part. We can not be whole without all the parts. Satan is not part of the human family, and represents a spirit of division and egocentrism.

 

[viole]

The injunction to love our enemies is found in Matthew 5, in the midst of the Sermon on the Mount. This is one of 5 sermons found in Matthew, four of which point to the central sermon that contains the crux of Matthew's gospel message, which is to not differentiate between "the good people" and "the bad people," for the kingdom consists of both, and we can't always tell the difference.

The whole of the Sermon on the Mount deals with human relationships. The section wherein is found the passage in question uses the terms "neighbors" and "brothers and sisters." These refer to human relationships. This isn't some treatise on "how to do spiritual battle." It's a treatise on how to treat people. Satan isn't "people." Satan is a concept wrapped in an avatar.

We love Hitler, because Hitler is part of the human family, of which everyone is part. We can not be whole without all the parts. Satan is not part of the human family, and represents a spirit of division and egocentrism.

Yes, I am sure we felt the big hole in our human family left by Hitler when he killed himself.

Let's see how reliable your textual criticism is. From what you say, I infer that everyone will be granted access to the Kingdom, good and bad people.

Is that so?

Ciao

- viole

 

[JoStories]

I am forced to agree with Sojourner here Viole. IMO, you're wrong. Contest is everything and Ben has answered you, several times. From my POV, I would likely perceive your questions as baiting as well.

My bad. I meant, of course, context. Not contest. Damn eyesight sucks sometimes.