Free Will and Physics

[YawgmothsAvatar]

I just found out about this interesting scientific bit of evidence against free will. Here we go.

If I were to have an atom in a vaccum that is frozen in time, and I could analyze every little bit of information about that atom, like its energy, direction, etc, I could find out where that atom would be in the next Plank time. I could then analyze what I've found from that hypothetical atom and do the same thing. I could continue to do this until the end of time.

Now suppose I predicted all the atoms in a molecule. I now know the future of the molecule.

Now I do it with a cell.

Now I do it with every atom in the universe. I can tell where every one will be, how they will interact, etc.

Then, if humans are all made of atoms that interact with each other, and thoughts are caused by chemicals that cause emotions and outside stimuli from other things and people, then can I not predict what that person will do next? Can't I continue to predict the actions of this person based on the chemicals in his/her brain and the surroundings of this person?

Obviously it is impossible to ever actually do this. But the principle is the same: from the atomic level up to human actions, the universe is on one track. Everything is already set in stone. What we think and do has been predestined since singularity. Since we can't really choose what we are going to do, we don't really have free will.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I thought quantum events were random, and that it is impossible to predict them. This really has no bearing on free will...even if atoms are random, that still doesn't mean we have free will...but that would mean that everything is not predestined.

Am I wrong on this?

 

[Allan]

I do not think we have free will at the moment as you probably understand it, just as you said. We actually do not really experience who we are.

I had a supernatural experience that seperated me from the human realm of the mind.

All the mental things we experience are mostly planted in our subconscious and acted on or resisted.

The bible seems to say because of a rebellious nature which is as witchcraft
we actively supernaturally penetrate each others brain, therefore having control over each other and this causes conflict.

It takes sensitivity to see this working, without being weak. It is obvious.

Because of rebelliousness we are removed from God's sight.

Low level Witchcraft stops the perfect freedom of coming into the knowledge of God.

Free will to me is knowing this and choosing not to come into that knowledge.

God is just beyond our own sense of self belief and is a quiet observer therefore knowing each of us intimately by what we are not. (how we do not measure up-sin)

 

[Ceridwen018]

Everything could be predestined once the quantum event 'hit'....also, it is possible that quantum events are patterned.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

We need a physicist to enlighten us on quantum events...are they truly random?

 

[Ceridwen018]

We could have a religious moment and declare them so....isn't anders a physicist?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

No, he's a chemist.

 

[(Q)]

quantum events...are they truly random?

Yes, right down to radioactive decay.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

In that case, YawgmothsAvatar must be wrong about everything being predestined...there can be no predetermined outcome if quantum events are random. Still, this doesn't go against his argument on free will.

 

[(Q)]

Free will?

Experiments in high energy physics are meticulously calculated with every possible control deployed - yet the results are random.

If anything, it supports the argument.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

You mean, if anything, it supports his argument that we do not have free will? I agree.

 

[YawgmothsAvatar]

In that case, YawgmothsAvatar must be wrong about everything being predestined...there can be no predetermined outcome if quantum events are random. Still, this doesn't go against his argument on free will.

So, in this case, everything we do is random, and not caused by our choice. We are, then, dictated purely by randomness.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Is it possible for quantum events to be random, but for atoms and matter to be ordered? This is just an idea of course, but would it be possible for a random quantum event to initiate something which acted in ordered patterns? In that case, everything we do wouldn't be dictated by randomness.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I think, Ceridwen, that the macro world we experience is so far removed and beyond the world of quantum events, that it is ordered and patterned the way we experience it....still, at the tiniest levels, the universe is random. So even though everyone behaves according to ordered patterns, you could never predict precisely where every atom would be in the brain....I guess.

 

[Ceridwen018]

That makes some sense. Then again, if we can't accurately predict it, how can we be sure it's patterned?......Well, I guess we may never be able to predict things on a very detailed level, but by analyzing less detailed things from a broader viewpoint, we can predict more obvious patterns...and big patterns can only come from little patterns so we could assume correctly that the atoms in our brains, etc. are patterned, even though we can't directly predict them.

 

[(Q)]

everything we do is random, and not caused by our choice.

No, we make the choice and do everything in our power to control the outcome of that choice, yet the result will be random.

 

[(Q)]

Then again, if we can't accurately predict it, how can we be sure it's patterned?....

Hence, we enter the world of quantum probability theory. How is your calculus?

 

[YawgmothsAvatar]

everything we do is random, and not caused by our choice.

No, we make the choice and do everything in our power to control the outcome of that choice, yet the result will be random.

I am afraid I don't quite follow you...

This is what I was thinking:

Think of the original situation I proposed, with the energy of the atoms and such. That was predestination. We could not truely control out actions.

Now add a random variable to that equation. I would think that since the rest of the equation is still the same, the only thing controlling our actions was randomness.

 

[(Q)]

Think of the original situation I proposed, with the energy of the atoms and such.

There is a clear distinction between the types of energies of an atom. For example, the kinetic energy from an atom oscillating about its position is considered disordered energy and is completely random while the kinetic energy of the same atoms' velocity moving through space is considered ordered energy, the energy of work.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

At any rate, do we agree that free will is an illusion?

I have a question about quantum physics for you (Q) that relates to predestination: Are quantum events literally random, or is it just that they will always appear random to us since our observation influences them, and therefore we will never know so we call it 'random'?

I read about Schrodinger's Cat analogy, but I am having a hard time understanding it.