Which theory? of the flood? it doesn't.
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Evidence for an ancient earth
- Thread starter sayak83
- Start date
Which theory? of the flood? it doesn't.
You can get various resolutions:
Nine Year Microwave Sky Image
Here is a good sized one:
https://wmap.gsfc.nasa.gov/media/121238/ilc_9yr_moll4096BW.png
Let me know what else you need for your album!
Since we know of fish today that do so, what is the issue?
Walking fish - Wikipedia
My favorite are the mudskippers.
David M
Well-Known Member
So "a millenia" or more. Do you still want to claim only a relative handful of people being alive during that whole period?
What? They are all over the place.
Never heard of WMAP and Planck satellites pictures of the early Universe? Google it.
Ciao
- viole
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
I wonder if you appreciate just how bad this sort of response makes you look. You claim to know of "reports online" that will address the issues I've raised, but when I ask for links to them, you respond with basically "I don't care"?
To be honest, it makes it look like you were lying when you claimed to know about these "reports". Does that bother you at all?
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
The Jewish people weren't on "known trading routes" for the most part as they were aliens in the land and had internecine warfare with the inhabitants. A Six-Day War vehicle was unearthed some years back after being buried under 50 feet of sand in about as many years.
And I respectfully disagree about the invasion of Palestine by the Hebrews--but you need to weigh all the facts. We're not going to find, for example, idols of Yahweh in Israel, because the earlier dates for the first two commandments of the decalogue were in force!
By the way, Christianity doesn't claim salvation by Christianity only. Both testaments allow those who trust in God to be saved.
Where was this vehicle found? The Sinai Peninsula is very diverse arid climat and only partially a sand dessert.
Actually the Exodus as described in the Bible follows known trading routes.
From: Kadesh Barnea and the route of the Exodus
"Kadesh Barnea
We shall begin with a critical aspect of the post-Sinai narrative — the significance of Kadesh Barnea. We will get to the location of Kadesh Barnea later; for the moment we are concerned merely with establishing some basic facts about the place. The Bible focuses a bright spotlight on this place. Deuteronomy 1:19-21 presents it as Israel's most important port of call between Mount Sinai and the Holy Land:
So we departed from Horeb [Mount Sinai], and went through all that great and terrible wilderness which you saw on the way to the mountains of the Amorites, as the Lord our God had commanded us. Then we came to Kadesh Barnea. And I said to you, “You have come to the mountains of the Amorites, which the Lord our God is giving us. Look, the Lord your God has set the land before you; go up and possess it…"
It would appear that they arrived there about twelve months after departing Mount Sinai, two years after leaving Egypt in what has become known as "the Exodus". Soon after, disaster struck. From Kadesh Barnea, Moses sent spies to reconnoiter the land. When they returned, they tarnished their glowing report of the land's superb assets with fearful accounts of the prowess and overwhelming strength of its inhabitants, many of whom were so tall the spies felt like grasshoppers by comparison (Num. 13).
The people felt so sorry for themselves they refused to budge
The people felt so sorry for themselves they refused to budge (Num. 14). At that point, God postponed the conquest, sentencing the entire nation to a total of forty years of rough country living, during which time every person who had been over the age of twenty upon departing from Egypt would die (Num 14:26-35). Ahead of them lay thirty-eight more years of wandering in unfamiliar surroundings. Many of those years were to be spent in Kadesh Barnea.
Exactly how long they spent at Kadesh Barnea remains moot. Most Christian commentators take Deuteronomy 2:14 to suggest a thirty-eight-year-long stopover:
And the time we took to come from Kadesh Barnea until we crossed over the Valley of the Zered was thirty-eight years…
This ambiguous statement, made shortly before the conquest, could be taken to suggest a thirty-eight-year stopover. Jewish students take a different tack, taking their cue from Deuteronomy 1:46:
So you remained in Kadesh many days, according to the days that you spent there.
Taking the highly-influential medieval French rabbi, Rashi, as their source, some Jewish commentators take the clause “according to the days that you spent there” to mean that they spent as much time there as they did at all other places combined. Thus, they spent a total of nineteen years at Kadesh Barnea. Makes sense, doesn't it?
More than one Kadesh
We need to remove an obstacle upon which a surprising number of scholars stub their toes — treating two separate places sharing the same name as if they were one place. Any reconstruction that treats two different places as if they were one and the same cannot help but come to grief. Numbers 33 provides a list of stopover points all the way from Egypt to the Promised Land. After leaving Mount Sinai, twenty stations are listed, after which,
They moved from Ezion Geber and camped in the Wilderness of Zin, which is Kadesh (vs. 36).
One could certainly be forgiven for taking this Kadesh to be one and the same as the Kadesh Barnea already discussed. Numbers 13 and 14, which speak unmistakably of events that occurred at Kadesh Barnea, show that it was sometimes referred to as simply “Kadesh” (13:26). And since no other Kadesh is referred to in Numbers 33 before the Kadesh mentioned in verse 36, it makes sense that this Kadesh is the same as the Kadesh Barnea spoken of in earlier chapters of Numbers. But it isn't; it's a different Kadesh, as an examination of various lines of evidence will show and as is recognized by a number of Bible students, particularly Jewish.
One must conclude that Kadesh Barnea is listed in Numbers 33 under a different name. Working with average distances between stations suggests that Terah (Num. 33:27) is the most likely candidate, but we cannot know. Frankly, it doesn't really matter.
One must conclude that Kadesh Barnea is listed in Numbers 33 under a different name.
Alternatively, Kadesh Barnea could be a specific name, possibly of a watering hole or the like, that was located in a district of a different name, in the same way that San Rafael is a city in Marin County, and Numbers 33 uses the district name. In short, the lack of appearance of the name “Kadesh Barnea” in verses 16-35 of Numbers 33 is no major impediment to the view presented here.
Reconstructing the trail
To have any chance of plotting the route taken by the Israelites with any degree of accuracy you must have at least a few dots, representing points on the route, you can be confident of. Enlightened sleuthing can then be employed to add more dots with some degree of accuracy. Finally, you join the dots. Of critical importance is the starting point; get it wrong and you will be off on a wild goose chase. We already have Mount Sinai marked on the map.1 Where do we go from there? We will start with the key facts presented in Deuteronomy 1:2:
It is eleven days' journey from Horeb by way of Mount Seir to Kadesh Barnea.
This map provides an overview of the journeys of the Israelites between Mount Sinai and the Plains of Moab.
Google Earth, Digital Globe, NASA, Cnes/Spot
This verse provides two critical clues that need to be carefully considered:
• The distance
• The direction taken — Mount Seir (Edom)
These clues won't enable us to triumphantly thrust a pin into the map but will give us a very helpful guideline which can be further refined by other hints.
The distance
How far was a day's journey? Nobody knows for sure, but we can be fairly confident of establishing a range of possibilities. We will take the position found in The Illustrated Bible Dictionary, which says, “Presumably a day's journey was between eighteen and twenty-five miles”.Figure 4 for an overview of the route.
Commonsense suggests that the Israelites followed this trading road leading to Mount Seir for at least part of their march towards Kadesh Barnea. Whether they stopped shy of Mount Seir or shot beyond it cannot be determined from the direction component of the Deuteronomy passage. Figure 5 outlines the most likely route taken by the Israelites, in the rough, from Har Kodesh towards Kadesh Barnea."
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Do you retract your claim about "special favorites" since God saves murderers?
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Why are you confusing a reducing population, lost to nature or hunted by man, with a new species. We can breed some dogs together and make a new species of dog. Then the purebreeders breed the new breed to make more purebreeds. Is this incest?
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
It's very simple, actually, and illuminating. Ezekiel prophesied a number of years in captivity:
“…As for you [Ezekiel], lie down…for the number of days…three hundred and ninety days (for Israel’s sin)…When you have completed these…I have assigned it to you for forty days (for Judah’s sin)…a day for each year.”—Ezekiel 4:4-6
That's 430 years (biblical years of 360 days each). 70 years of captivity were served in Babylon, leaving 360 years.
Modern atheists noted this... surely the final Jewish diaspora into modern times lasted more than 360 years since the end of the Babylonian captivity! Surely the Bible was wrong:
606 BCE …Judah/Israel taken captive to Babylon
536 BCE …Cyrus allows return to Israel
...360 years later is pre-Roman times in Israel!
Some readers, noticed, however, that Leviticus 26:14-46 says Israel will pay seven times over for disobedience: "…If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins."
They multiplied 7 times 360 360-day years from the Cyrus decree and in the Gentile calendar this comes out to: Whoa! May 14, 1948 CE! God left it as written to demonstrate it wasn't a self-fulfilled prophecy, and for skeptics to draw it out!
What about coincidence? There are numerous Bible prophecies, these are the sole passages on the God-commanded length of the lengthy diaspora. The coincidence would be millions-to-one. There are similar precise number prophecies relating to other aspects, if you're interested. The date for Christ's crucifixion appears in the Septuagint, which scholars know dates to at least two-and-a-half centuries before Christ.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Where was this vehicle found? The Sinai Peninsula is very diverse arid climat and only partially a sand dessert.
Actually the Exodus as described in the Bible follows known trading routes.
From: Kadesh Barnea and the route of the Exodus
"Kadesh Barnea
We shall begin with a critical aspect of the post-Sinai narrative — the significance of Kadesh Barnea. We will get to the location of Kadesh Barnea later; for the moment we are concerned merely with establishing some basic facts about the place. The Bible focuses a bright spotlight on this place. Deuteronomy 1:19-21 presents it as Israel's most important port of call between Mount Sinai and the Holy Land:
So we departed from Horeb [Mount Sinai], and went through all that great and terrible wilderness which you saw on the way to the mountains of the Amorites, as the Lord our God had commanded us. Then we came to Kadesh Barnea. And I said to you, “You have come to the mountains of the Amorites, which the Lord our God is giving us. Look, the Lord your God has set the land before you; go up and possess it…"
It would appear that they arrived there about twelve months after departing Mount Sinai, two years after leaving Egypt in what has become known as "the Exodus". Soon after, disaster struck. From Kadesh Barnea, Moses sent spies to reconnoiter the land. When they returned, they tarnished their glowing report of the land's superb assets with fearful accounts of the prowess and overwhelming strength of its inhabitants, many of whom were so tall the spies felt like grasshoppers by comparison (Num. 13).
The people felt so sorry for themselves they refused to budge
The people felt so sorry for themselves they refused to budge (Num. 14). At that point, God postponed the conquest, sentencing the entire nation to a total of forty years of rough country living, during which time every person who had been over the age of twenty upon departing from Egypt would die (Num 14:26-35). Ahead of them lay thirty-eight more years of wandering in unfamiliar surroundings. Many of those years were to be spent in Kadesh Barnea.
Exactly how long they spent at Kadesh Barnea remains moot. Most Christian commentators take Deuteronomy 2:14 to suggest a thirty-eight-year-long stopover:
And the time we took to come from Kadesh Barnea until we crossed over the Valley of the Zered was thirty-eight years…
This ambiguous statement, made shortly before the conquest, could be taken to suggest a thirty-eight-year stopover. Jewish students take a different tack, taking their cue from Deuteronomy 1:46:
So you remained in Kadesh many days, according to the days that you spent there.
Taking the highly-influential medieval French rabbi, Rashi, as their source, some Jewish commentators take the clause “according to the days that you spent there” to mean that they spent as much time there as they did at all other places combined. Thus, they spent a total of nineteen years at Kadesh Barnea. Makes sense, doesn't it?
More than one Kadesh
We need to remove an obstacle upon which a surprising number of scholars stub their toes — treating two separate places sharing the same name as if they were one place. Any reconstruction that treats two different places as if they were one and the same cannot help but come to grief. Numbers 33 provides a list of stopover points all the way from Egypt to the Promised Land. After leaving Mount Sinai, twenty stations are listed, after which,
They moved from Ezion Geber and camped in the Wilderness of Zin, which is Kadesh (vs. 36).
One could certainly be forgiven for taking this Kadesh to be one and the same as the Kadesh Barnea already discussed. Numbers 13 and 14, which speak unmistakably of events that occurred at Kadesh Barnea, show that it was sometimes referred to as simply “Kadesh” (13:26). And since no other Kadesh is referred to in Numbers 33 before the Kadesh mentioned in verse 36, it makes sense that this Kadesh is the same as the Kadesh Barnea spoken of in earlier chapters of Numbers. But it isn't; it's a different Kadesh, as an examination of various lines of evidence will show and as is recognized by a number of Bible students, particularly Jewish.
One must conclude that Kadesh Barnea is listed in Numbers 33 under a different name. Working with average distances between stations suggests that Terah (Num. 33:27) is the most likely candidate, but we cannot know. Frankly, it doesn't really matter.
One must conclude that Kadesh Barnea is listed in Numbers 33 under a different name.
Alternatively, Kadesh Barnea could be a specific name, possibly of a watering hole or the like, that was located in a district of a different name, in the same way that San Rafael is a city in Marin County, and Numbers 33 uses the district name. In short, the lack of appearance of the name “Kadesh Barnea” in verses 16-35 of Numbers 33 is no major impediment to the view presented here.
Reconstructing the trail
To have any chance of plotting the route taken by the Israelites with any degree of accuracy you must have at least a few dots, representing points on the route, you can be confident of. Enlightened sleuthing can then be employed to add more dots with some degree of accuracy. Finally, you join the dots. Of critical importance is the starting point; get it wrong and you will be off on a wild goose chase. We already have Mount Sinai marked on the map.1 Where do we go from there? We will start with the key facts presented in Deuteronomy 1:2:
It is eleven days' journey from Horeb by way of Mount Seir to Kadesh Barnea.
This map provides an overview of the journeys of the Israelites between Mount Sinai and the Plains of Moab.
Google Earth, Digital Globe, NASA, Cnes/Spot
This verse provides two critical clues that need to be carefully considered:
• The distance
• The direction taken — Mount Seir (Edom)
These clues won't enable us to triumphantly thrust a pin into the map but will give us a very helpful guideline which can be further refined by other hints.
The distance
How far was a day's journey? Nobody knows for sure, but we can be fairly confident of establishing a range of possibilities. We will take the position found in The Illustrated Bible Dictionary, which says, “Presumably a day's journey was between eighteen and twenty-five miles”.Figure 4 for an overview of the route.
Commonsense suggests that the Israelites followed this trading road leading to Mount Seir for at least part of their march towards Kadesh Barnea. Whether they stopped shy of Mount Seir or shot beyond it cannot be determined from the direction component of the Deuteronomy passage. Figure 5 outlines the most likely route taken by the Israelites, in the rough, from Har Kodesh towards Kadesh Barnea."
1. There are dozens of stops given on the Exodus route, including some durations lasting MONTHS. There's NO WAY they were in Kadesh 38 of 40 years. Ask me a question instead of telling me "what most Christians" believe, please.
2. In the hypothesis method, we see if the narrative is true, where it leads. a) tents, not permanent structures b) manna, not discarded animal remains c) how would you know if a piece of pottery was "Hebrew" or no? d) there are no skeletons at Kadesh, etc. as no one died there e) even the soles of the shoes lasted 40 years, etc.
3. There are few archaeologists working the Sinai, ever. That it is an inhospitable wilderness isn't in doubt. I'm asking you to use reason, not stubbornness, to understand how the lines on the map look very clear above but in reality, an archaeologist could be off by just 100 yards and miss 5,000 pieces of pottery.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
You are of course missing the point. I'm aware of these snapshots in time. They are taken NOW, not 15 Billion years ago. They are extrapolations using uniformitarian assumptions--and if true, we still have time/light problems and paradoxes to solve.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
My point you may have missed, looks like!
The Flood was a miracle act, other miracles may have been attendant, yes. My question is can we interpret the geology a bit differently while being accurate to the data. I think YECs have done a good job here.
What paradoxes? May I suggest you start dealing with real science instead of taking your "knowledge" from those creationist sites?
Ciao
- viole
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
Again, you claimed to know of "reports online" that would address the issues I raised, but when I asked for them you deflected. That strongly suggests you were lying about them.
Can you link to these "reports online" or not?
The YEC's have provided nothing of significance to support a literal Biblical Creation and a Noah world flood
Yes, thee flood is considered a miracle act, but there is no evidence that any regional nor world flood too place of the magnitude the Bible describes.
Physics restricts any different interpretation of the geologic evidence. There are a number of places in the world where there is a complete geologic sedimentary record without interruption or discontinuity that could be interpreted as a major flood on the Biblical scale.
The energy creating massive flood debris, and the water required for a flood of this magnitude just is not there.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I would respond that the YECs (and others, including secular scientists) have poked enough holes in Evolution to make the alternatives plausible (creation or space seed).
I would say that a geologic section of ROCK layers might not be overturned by a lot of water.
They are pictures used from the light from BB+300,000 years as you required.
What paradoxes do you think need to be solved?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Absolutely false, and fortunately most theistic scientists accept the ToE as long as it is understood that God was behind it all. .
Which doesn't even get close to explaining the stratigraphy of what the Earth's crust is like. Plus there's simply not one iota of scientific evidence that supports the idea that Earth was ever covered with water. Nada. Nyet. Zero.