End times, Now?

[angellous_evangellous]

Consider it done

Forgive my theological blunder! :thud:

No problem at all. I think that your thoughts are very insightful and recognize the awesome impact of the cross/resurrection event in Christianity. Your view only needs slight modification to be orthodox - ifthat is your intent.

I've actually seen "cosmic Christ" in both popular and scholarly work.

You're right - the cross/resurrection changeseverything - but the continuance of our history/world/cosmos with the time of Christ is important. Paul thought that we had one foot in this world and the other in the next - we have citizenship in the new cosmos through Christ - like an engagement to marry, but the consummation has not taken place, at least not from the point of view of the NT.

 

[Elvendon]

No problem at all. I think that your thoughts are very insightful and recognize the awesome impact of the cross/resurrection event in Christianity. Your view only needs slight modification to be orthodox - ifthat is your intent.

It is. I have no desire to be an apostate

I've actually seen "cosmic Christ" in both popular and scholarly work.

Yeah, that's where I got it from. I didn't mean to pass it off as my own thinking, I apologise. I did want to refer to the guy who developed Creation Spirituality and coined the Cosmic Christ phrase, but I couldn't remember his name ><

You're right - the cross/resurrection changeseverything - but the continuance of our history/world/cosmos with the time of Christ is important. Paul thought that we had one foot in this world and the other in the next - we have citizenship in the new cosmos through Christ - like an engagement to marry, but the consummation has not taken place, at least not from the point of view of the NT.

Right you are. I do like that idea - sort of waiting on the cusp of a new age ^^

Still, I do like seeing the signs of that world to come all around me. I feel and see the Spirit of God in all things, but it is not yet fully expressed - just as you say.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It is. I have no desire to be an apostate

Big difference between apostate and honest mistake.

Yeah, that's where I got it from. I didn't mean to pass it off as my own thinking, I apologise. I did want to refer to the guy who developed Creation Spirituality and coined the Cosmic Christ phrase, but I couldn't remember his name ><

No apology needed - I meant it as a compliment thinking that you came up with it originally - which would have been entirely possible. Just Google "cosmic Christ." You'll see that it's widely used. I don't recall who came up with it originally, but even Paul and John used "cosmos" in their theologizing so it's been with us from the beginning.

Still, I do like seeing the signs of that world to come all around me. I feel and see the Spirit of God in all things, but it is not yet fully expressed - just as you say.

Hence the joy and reward of faith.

 

[Mystic-als]

Okay. if I have followed this correctly. The end times have happened already but not here?

 

[Elvendon]

@ A_E - thanks for being so helpful! It's always nice to have a guide towards Orthodoxy.

Okay. if I have followed this correctly. The end times have happened already but not here?

I think that was my point that we discussed and I now accept isn't the Christian view. Essentially, I think where we are now is that the decisive act of the "apocalypse" has already happened (Jesus' death and resurrection) and this did change everything absolutely - but the final bangs, whistles and fulfillment of the end-times is yet to come.

A_E, care to help me out here?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Okay. if I have followed this correctly. The end times have happened already but not here?

The Church believes that Jesus is the Messiah, and understands this coming and subsequent pouring out of the holy Spirit as fulfilling apocalyptic (=end time = eschatological) expectations. This fulfillment is cosmic in nature and effects everything in creation: the whole cosmos was touched by the power of the incarnation, death, and resurrection of the Creator.

In other words, we creatures have been touched by God.

We've been living in the apocalpse/eschaton/ end times since the coming of Christ - we're still in that history until God brings this history to an end with a new beginning and redeems or destroys all things through Christ.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

@ A_E - thanks for being so helpful! It's always nice to have a guide towards Orthodoxy.

No problem.

Folks correct me all the time.

 

[Mystic-als]

Okay. So then this world could be viewed as heaven? Or paradise?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Okay. So then this world could be viewed as heaven? Or paradise?

Not quite.

The best way that I've seen this thought expressed in modern theologians is "now and not yet" eschatology. The end times (or new times) are here in some ways, but in some ways they are not.

For example, Jesus taught that the kingdom of heaven is within us (= the indwelling of the Holy Spirit = the Church) but on the cross it's recorded that Jesus said that the theif would dine with him in paradise - referring clearly to something other than where he was at the moment. Paul taught that Christians have dual citizenship - one here on earth and one in heaven. The Church is the bride of Christ now, but the marriage is to take place later - an excellent image.

From the NT perspective, it's begun but not finished. In Greek - the teleos - the perfection has not happened.

We can see quite plainly that Christian end time expectations have not happened from two examples:

Philippians 2
9Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Revelation 21 - written long after the death and resurrection of Christ
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place[a] of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people,[b] and God himself will be with them as their God.[c] 4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."

We know that the final work of God - making all things new in the cosmos - has not yet occured.

We're still crying.

 

[Mystic-als]

So we are in some sort of in-between time period. Not end, not new.
Hmm. Makes sense in a confusing kind of way

 

[Booko]

The end times are said to be happening now. I often see posts that say something like "in these end times". How do we know that we are living in the end times. In the sense that the bible foretold. I know we are living in the days after Jesus but does that make it the end times?

Jesus gave a few indications for the "end times."

- The Gospel would be preached in all the world
- the Jews would return to Israel
- the "abomination of desolation" as spoken by Daniel the prophet.

Whatever one makes of the 3rd criterion, the first two have, by most accounts, happened and have happened for some while, so I suppose it's no wonder there's so much talk of being in the "end times."

What do you envision the "end times" being like or resulting in?

 

[Elvendon]

Jesus gave a few indications for the "end times."

- The Gospel would be preached in all the world
- the Jews would return to Israel
- the "abomination of desolation" as spoken by Daniel the prophet.

Whatever one makes of the 3rd criterion, the first two have, by most accounts, happened and have happened for some while, so I suppose it's no wonder there's so much talk of being in the "end times."

What do you envision the "end times" being like or resulting in?

Didn't he also say that all the end-times things would happen before (his) current generation would be spent? Which puts a spanner in the works :sarcastic

 

[Elvendon]

I must say... when I read apocalyptic passages, I usually feel greatly concerned. My heart often feels heavy - am I on the right path? Am I following Jesus' teachings in the spirit that he would approve of? Would he see me as an evil hypocrite for not giving all my money to the poor in Africa? There are so many Christian paths all professing to be the "right" one, often exclusively, so which one is it?

Sometimes what I read in the Bible flies in the face of what I feel moral and right... sometimes it feels just like I had written it myself. The thought that my life and quest to find out what is right will be cut short fills me with dread.

Elvendon

 

[may]

Okay. if I have followed this correctly. The end times have happened already but not here?

we have been living in the time of the end since 1914 , according to bible prophecy and bible chronology that was the time when Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly kingdom, it does not mean the end of the planet ,but it means the end of man ruling himself independant of God. the heavenly kingdom is now well established and ready to go into action.
And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite Daniel 2;44

 

[Booko]

Didn't he also say that all the end-times things would happen before (his) current generation would be spent? Which puts a spanner in the works :sarcastic

It's what makes eschatology such fun.

Are you referring to the passage in Luke 21?

If so, the fulfillment spoken of in verse 32 would surely apply to at least some of the things Jesus referred to in vs. 7ff, yes?

Some of them were indeed fulfilled. In vs. 16 it talks about Christians being betrayed, even by families. ok...that happened.

In vs 20-22 He seems to be talking about the destruction of the temple, which was in 70AD if memory serves. Um, yeah some people He spoke to would've lived to have seen that. But again, that's the *creation* of desolation, not the end or abomination of it.

In vs. 24 Jesus refers to the coming Diaspora, and only then does he start to mention the "times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" which would turn our calendar forward to the end time (whenever one believes that to be).

In vs. 27 He talks about returning.

In vs. 29-30, Jesus advises His followers that when they see signs of redemption, they'll know "summer is nigh" (or that things will soon be right with the world?)

And then in vs. 32 is that ambiguous reference to this generation seeing everything get fulfilled. That problem is ... it's ambiguous.

Does it means that the immediate prophecies he mentions early in this passage will be fulfilled within a generation? Um, well they were. Does it mean "God's gonna fulfill things whether you like it or not and no one's getting in His way"? It might mean that at the same time, and if one believes in God is also kinda hard to argue with. Does it necessarily refer to the end times being fulfilled within a generation? Maybe. Maybe not.

If you look at that passage in concert with other prophetic passages, especially those regarding times in say, Daniel and Revelation, then clearly Jesus *cannot* be referring to the "end times" happening within a generation. If that were so, why would John of Patmos write Revelation anyway? Wouldn't it be kinda moot?

I would argue that other prophecies in the Bible are not so ambiguous, and to make any sense of these, it's best to try and make sense of them together rather than isolation. You can get all sorts of bizzarre things trying to understand prophecies in isolation, as we've seen throughout history.

 

[Booko]

we have been living in the time of the end since 1914 , according to bible prophecy and bible chronology that was the time when Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly kingdom, it does not mean the end of the planet ,but it means the end of man ruling himself independant of God. the heavenly kingdom is now well established and ready to go into action.
And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite Daniel 2;44

It may be interesting to consider that the person who inspired the foundation of your denomination set the date a bit earlier than that. Did you check out any of those links on Rev. Miller I sent you a couple of months ago? I was rather hoping to hear your views on them, and maybe an explanation of why your denomination revised his original dates. I'm assuming there's some Biblical reason for doing so, and considering prophecies, there is often room for alternate understandings. I was interested in how 1914 was derived, esp. as it doesn't seem to fit in with any of the Biblical references to 1260, or at least not that I've figured out. I wondered what I'd miscalculated.

At any rate, I agree that the "end times" is not referring to the destruction of the Earth. I think that's more an unfortunate tradition based on a bad translation or understanding, and it certainly doesn't make sense in light of Mark 13:20 and Matt. 24:22.

 

[may]

It may be interesting to consider that the person who inspired the foundation of your denomination set the date a bit earlier than that. Did you check out any of those links on Rev. Miller I sent you a couple of months ago? I was rather hoping to hear your views on them, and maybe an explanation of why your denomination revised his original dates. I'm assuming there's some Biblical reason for doing so, and considering prophecies, there is often room for alternate understandings. I was interested in how 1914 was derived, esp. as it doesn't seem to fit in with any of the Biblical references to 1260, or at least not that I've figured out. I wondered what I'd miscalculated.

At any rate, I agree that the "end times" is not referring to the destruction of the Earth. I think that's more an unfortunate tradition based on a bad translation or understanding, and it certainly doesn't make sense in light of Mark 13:20 and Matt. 24:22.

the early bible students did lots of roving around the pages of the bible , but Jehovah reveals things at his own time , and NOW in these last days many things are being and have been revealed. so i like to be progressive and move along with new understanding about how the bible is being revealed in these the last days. thrilling times indeed .
And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant. Daniel 12;4 yes the true knowledge about Gods heavenly kingdom goverment , and the prophecies of the bible relating to the kingdom and Gods purpose for the earth , have and are being revealed in these the last days. and they are being revealed at the proper time . MATTHEW 24;45-47
Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings..................... And he (Jesus)sure has done that , keeping awake to bible prophecy as the early bible students did do, has reaped many blessings in this the last days............... nolonger is there darkness, but enlightenment indeed.

 

[Mystic-als]

1914

how do you get that date?

 

[may]

how do you get that date?

the 1914 date is a very very significant date in the bible. according to bible prophecy and bible chronology , many people say it does not say 1914 in the bible, and that is quite right , but Jesus being given the right to the kingship is right on time for that date . yes the bible has many prophecies which are related to the heavenly kingdom..... the following is only one thing that proves the date 1914 is very significant

1914—A​

Significant Year in Bible Prophecy​

DECADES in advance, Bible students proclaimed that there would be significant developments in 1914. What were these, and what evidence points to 1914 as such an important year?
As recorded at Luke 21:24, Jesus said: "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations ["the times of the Gentiles," King James Version] are fulfilled." Jerusalem had been the capital city of the Jewish nation—the seat of rulership of the line of kings from the house of King David. (Psalm 48:1, 2) However, these kings were unique among national leaders. They sat on "Jehovah’s throne" as representatives of God himself. (1 Chronicles 29:23) Jerusalem was thus a symbol of Jehovah’s rulership.
How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be "trampled on by the nations"? This happened in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians. "Jehovah’s throne" became vacant, and the line of kings who descended from David was interrupted. (2 Kings 25:1-26) Would this ‘trampling’ go on forever? No, for the prophecy of Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem’s last king, Zedekiah: "Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. . . . It will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him." (Ezekiel 21:26, 27) The one who has "the legal right" to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32, 33) So the ‘trampling’ would end when Jesus became King.
When would that grand event occur? Jesus showed that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time. The account in Daniel chapter 4 holds the key to knowing how long that period would last. It relates a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. He saw an immense tree that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An angel declared: "Let seven times pass over it."—Daniel 4:10-16.
In the Bible, trees are sometimes used to represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5) So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God’s rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem’ would be temporary—a period of "seven times." How long a period is that?
Revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal "a thousand two hundred and sixty days." "Seven times" would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. But the Gentile nations did not stop ‘trampling’ on God’s rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem’s fall. Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of "a day for a year," the "seven times" would cover 2,520 years.​

The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, "the appointed times of the nations" ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King.—Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13, 14.​

Just as Jesus predicted, his "presence" as heavenly King has been marked by dramatic world developments—war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences. (Matthew 24:3-8; Luke 21:11) Such developments bear powerful testimony to the fact that 1914 indeed marked the birth of God’s heavenly Kingdom and the beginning of "the last days" of this present wicked system of things.—2 Timothy 3:1-5.

 

[Elvendon]

Nifty... but did anything of note relating to Christ actually *happen* in 1914? A new denomination? Anything?

All I seem to remember is the First World War starting up, and that doesn't seem to be a birth of the Prince of Peace...