Does The Bible Contain Errors And Contradictions

[Subduction Zone]

First, according to Baha'i beliefs, there are two kinds of Prophets, independent Prophets and Prophets who are followers and promoters of the independent Prophets.

Question.—How many kinds of Prophets are there?

Answer.—Universally, the Prophets are of two kinds. One are the independent Prophets Who are followed; the other kind are not independent and are themselves followers.

The independent Prophets are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle. Through Their appearance the world puts on a new garment, the foundations of religion are established, and a new book is revealed. Without an intermediary They receive bounty from the Reality of the Divinity, and Their illumination is an essential illumination. They are like the sun which is luminous in itself: the light is its essential necessity; it does not receive light from any other star. These Dawning-places of the morn of Unity are the sources of bounty and the mirrors of the Essence of Reality.

The other Prophets are followers and promoters, for they are branches and not independent; they receive the bounty of the independent Prophets, and they profit by the light of the Guidance of the universal Prophets. They are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in itself, but receives its light from the sun.

The Manifestations of universal Prophethood Who appeared independently are, for example, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. But the others who are followers and promoters are like Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. For the independent Prophets are founders; They establish a new religion and make new creatures of men; They change the general morals, promote new customs and rules, renew the cycle and the Law. Their appearance is like the season of spring, which arrays all earthly beings in a new garment, and gives them a new life.

With regard to the second sort of Prophets who are followers, these also promote the Law of God, make known the Religion of God, and proclaim His word. Of themselves they have no power and might, except what they receive from the independent Prophets.

43: THE TWO CLASSES OF PROPHETS, Some Answered Questions, pp. 164-165

The Prophets of the OT who prophesied the coming of future independent Prophets were followers and promoters, which explains why they predicted the coming of the independent Prophets and wrote prophecies about them, so that people in the future would recognize them when they appeared.

Baha'is normally refer to the independent Prophets as as Manifestations of God, or Messengers of God.

You are correct. Prophecies do not have to be 'about' a Prophet. They might be about the Prophet but they can be about an event.
The prophecies I am referring to are about the 'person' who return of Christ who I believe was the same person as the end times messiah who was prophesied in the OT, and they are also about 'events' that would transpire during his lifetime and after he died.

It really does not matter what happened thousands of years ago or if the event prophecies that refer to the past were fulfilled or not, since the past is gone and is not relevant to the times we are now living in.

Some of the end times prophecies refer to events that were fulfilled by the coming of the person who would be the return of Christ/end times messiah, things that that person would do during his lifetime and other event prophecies would happen after he died,, during the messianic age, which will last no less than 1000 years from his coming.

Please note that when I say 'end times' I am referring to the end of an age, not to the end of the world. End times is the end of the Age of Prophecy, which marks the beginning of the new age, which is called the Age of Fulfillment, the age which I believe we are now living in.

I am only interesting in prophecies that meet the standards that I posted already.

 

[Quagmire]

As far as contradictions go(from another thread): Bible contradictions

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The Holy Bible has been the worlds best selling book, in every generation since the printing press was invented many centuries ago.

Here's a question for you, though: while the Bible may be the best selling book, is it the most read?

I can tell you that I, as a life-long atheist, have read the entire Bible all the way through -- three full times. I know it, as I know so much other human literature, very well. (Of course, I'm no scholar, I have to read it in English translation.)

I was listening to some MAGA types being interviewed just today, and one group was asked this question: "If there was a book that contained a story about 2 girls getting their father drunk and seducing him into sleeping with him, should that book be banned from schools and libraries?" And of course, these MAGAs were vehement: "absolutely, such filth has no place anywhere!"

And of course, that is an integral part of the story of Lot, after leaving Sodom before it's destruction. It's in the Bible, Genesis 19 to be precise. Not only that, Lot's daughters both had husbands. And so they're committing sexual assault (they gave him alcohol to numb his moral sense), incest and adultery all at the same time.

Well, with that kind of stuff, small wonder it's a best-seller. But do you know what? Most Christians haven't actually read it, and are often surprised when told stories like the above that are in it.

 

[Charles Philips]

Argumentum ad populum



And many folks become atheists due to the faults and contradictions they do find



Same as the previous paragraph. More empty boasting that ignores the fact that the opposite happens as well. Meh



Wait, thousands of years before he came? As far as I'm aware, the first mention of the Messiah involved Moses. Moses didn't live that long ago. Are you talking about some other prophets? Which ones, exactly?



The problem with prophecies is that we look at them from the perspective of hindsight where we can shoehorn whatever explanation we want to make them "fulfilled" in any way we like. Looking at the way people in the past thought their prophecies were "fulfilled," then looking at modern understanding and seeing how they differ doesn't make prophecy seem like a very reliable proof. If they were mistaken but thought they were right then, who's to say we aren't mistaken and wrong with our interpretations now? That's not very convincing for me

Well if you're able to ignore 356 items of irrefutable evidence, in order to deny the facts. Then I believe nothing will convince you. I guess unbelief is a human right, but it carries eternal consequences so you can deny the evidence at your peril

 

[Charles Philips]

Who found Jesus's tomb empty and what did they see when they got there? A single answer, please.

You ask two question but require a single answer???

 

[Charles Philips]

I have not even tried yet. I have to see if it is even worth my time. Also the burden of proof is actually on you. If you want to play a silly Gish Gallop Game then refuting one would refute them all.

If you want to use prophecy you have to at the very least agree to certain standards, if not it is just worthless hand waving.

But getting back to the other endless errors in the Bible besides all of Genesis and Exodus, those are already givens to any person that can reason rationally what year do you think that Jesus was born in?

If you can demonstrate that a single one of those prophecies wasn't fulfilled, then you have a case.
You would also have a case if you find an error in any book of the bible, not just Genesis or Exodus.
everybody knows that Jesus was born in the year 0

 

[Charles Philips]

There's no way to date each book of the Bible but we do know when the Bible appeared and I would say the Catholic Church pretty much wrote the entire New Testament with it's Jewish counterpart attached to the New Testament.

The Bible goes back to the beginning of time, which was somewhere between 6000 to 10,000 years ago. It was not written by the Catholic Church, it was actually God who inspired 34 different authors to write it over a period of 2,500 years, they lived in different parts of the world so most never knew the others.
I'm not sure where you got your information, but it's absolutely wrong

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You ask two question but require a single answer???

I thought my meaning was clear, but apparently not.

Please give an answer - as long as you like - that gives a single coherent and consistent version of what happened.

Who do you think found the empty tomb? Was it:

- Mary Magdalene, "the other Mary," and Salome? (Mark)
- Mary Magdalene and "the other Mary" without Salome? (Matthew)
- Mary Magdalene by herself? (John)
- unidentified "women"? (Luke)

When the person or people discovered it, what did they do right away? Did they:

- enter the tomb and find a young man inside dressed in white? (Matthew and Mark)
- enter the tomb and then find TWO men OUTSIDE dressed in white? (Luke)
- not enter the tomb at all and instead immediately run to find Simon Peter and "the disciple whom Jesus loved"? (John)

After that, what did they do? Did they:

- tell nobody? (Mark)
- tell many disciples? (Matthew and Luke)
- go back to the tomb with Simon Peter and the other disciple, then stay there alone after the disciples leave? (John)

Please tell me how you reconcile all these accounts in a way that doesn't contradict any of them.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you can demonstrate that a single one of those prophecies wasn't fulfilled, then you have a case.
You would also have a case if you find an error in any book of the bible, not just Genesis or Exodus.

That's the fun thing about prophecy: any failed prophecy can be hand-waved away by saying that it was misinterpreted and actually refers to something in the future.

everybody knows that Jesus was born in the year 0

There is no year 0 in the Gregorian calendar.

Year zero - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Charles Philips]

The Bible is fraught with contradictions, which is to be expected from a book that was written by that many different over the course of long periods of time.

Moreover, there is no reason to think that the Bible was divinely inspired. That is only a faith-based belief which is backed by no evidence.

God's Prophets foretold of the coming of Jesus Christ but the whole Bible is not ABOUT Jesus Christ. The Old Testament is about Abraham and Moses and many other Prophets.

Some of the OT prophecies were fulfilled by Jesus, but NONE of the messianic age prophecies were fulfilled by Jesus, and they never will be fulfilled by Jesus since Jesus is never coming back to this world.

Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. That means that the return of Christ and the end times messiah has to be another Person.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Anyone with a passing interest in the Bible, would see that your private opinion is based on "Subjective Circular Reasoning". This is the tactic used by all those who don't have a foundation based on evidence for their theory.

 

[Trailblazer]

Anyone with a passing interest in the Bible, would see that your private opinion is based on "Subjective Circular Reasoning". This is the tactic used by all those who don't have a foundation based on evidence for their theory.

The verses below have nothing to do with my private opinion or circular reasoning.
The Bible says what it says. These verses are the evidence that Jesus is not going to return to this world.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[Charles Philips]

Here's a question for you, though: while the Bible may be the best selling book, is it the most read?

I can tell you that I, as a life-long atheist, have read the entire Bible all the way through -- three full times. I know it, as I know so much other human literature, very well. (Of course, I'm no scholar, I have to read it in English translation.)

I was listening to some MAGA types being interviewed just today, and one group was asked this question: "If there was a book that contained a story about 2 girls getting their father drunk and seducing him into sleeping with him, should that book be banned from schools and libraries?" And of course, these MAGAs were vehement: "absolutely, such filth has no place anywhere!"

And of course, that is an integral part of the story of Lot, after leaving Sodom before it's destruction. It's in the Bible, Genesis 19 to be precise. Not only that, Lot's daughters both had husbands. And so they're committing sexual assault (they gave him alcohol to numb his moral sense), incest and adultery all at the same time.

Well, with that kind of stuff, small wonder it's a best-seller. But do you know what? Most Christians haven't actually read it, and are often surprised when told stories like the above that are in it.

The Holy bible is Gods Word, because every word in the Bible was God berthed and His Prophets and Disciples wrote the books as they received the inspiration. Many of them didn't understand what they were writing about as much of the Bible is prophesy so the writers never got to se the prophesies fulfilled in their time.

The Bible is not a book to read like other books, it is so packed with deep theology that it needs to be studied bit by bit. We normally spend around 2 months on a single chapter at my Church, so it takes many years to go through the bible.

God said that He has not given the gift of discernment to unbelievers, so His Word is foolishness to them. Only His Elect Saints have been given the gift of understanding His Word. He said "My Sheep hear My voice". So I'm not surprised to hear you struggling to make sense of what God has said.

If God gave you the gift of discernment and faith, then everything would make sense and you wouldn't be misunderstanding what happened in the case of Lot and his daughters.
I'll share what we believe the Gods Words said about that incident, the two daughters were convinced that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was a world wide event. They believed they were the last three people left alive in the world, so they did what they thought was their only option to save humanity from becoming extinct.
So it had nothing to do with some sick and perverted incest, they weren't desperate for sexual gratification.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well if you're able to ignore 356 items of irrefutable evidence, in order to deny the facts. Then I believe nothing will convince you. I guess unbelief is a human right, but it carries eternal consequences so you can deny the evidence at your peril

Sorry, but until you demonstrate that all of your prophecies are true you cannot count them as any sort of evidence.

And remember the list that I gave to you. I can post it again if needed.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If you can demonstrate that a single one of those prophecies wasn't fulfilled, then you have a case.
You would also have a case if you find an error in any book of the bible, not just Genesis or Exodus.
everybody knows that Jesus was born in the year 0

Oh, shifting the burden of proof. Once again, that is not on me. You were the ones that claimed that they were evidence. I only tried to help by posting a list of standards that they must meet. Let me find that for you again.

Here it is:

Criteria for a true prophecy[edit]​

For a statement to be Biblical foreknowledge, it must fit all of the five following criteria:

1. It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.
2. It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical by definition foreknowledge can only come from the Bible itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Bible.
3. It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.
4. It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened to be true, but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.
5. It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Holy bible is Gods Word, because every word in the Bible was God berthed and His Prophets and Disciples wrote the books as they received the inspiration. Many of them didn't understand what they were writing about as much of the Bible is prophesy so the writers never got to se the prophesies fulfilled in their time.

The Bible is not a book to read like other books, it is so packed with deep theology that it needs to be studied bit by bit. We normally spend around 2 months on a single chapter at my Church, so it takes many years to go through the bible.

God said that He has not given the gift of discernment to unbelievers, so His Word is foolishness to them. Only His Elect Saints have been given the gift of understanding His Word. He said "My Sheep hear My voice". So I'm not surprised to hear you struggling to make sense of what God has said.

If God gave you the gift of discernment and faith, then everything would make sense and you wouldn't be misunderstanding what happened in the case of Lot and his daughters.
I'll share what we believe the Gods Words said about that incident, the two daughters were convinced that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was a world wide event. They believed they were the last three people left alive in the world, so they did what they thought was their only option to save humanity from becoming extinct.
So it had nothing to do with some sick and perverted incest, they weren't desperate for sexual gratification.

Again, that is just an empty claim. I would be just as "correct" if I claimed that it was from dictation by drunken leprechauns and was not willing to support it.

 

[McBell]

 

[Soandso]

Well if you're able to ignore 356 items of irrefutable evidence, in order to deny the facts.

Irrefutable evidence? We are talking about "fulfilled prophecies." Every religion has those. Are you swayed by Islam's list of fulfilled prophecies? Nostradamus has many fulfilled prophecies as well. Hell, I think every religion pretty much has lists of fulfilled prophecies that they claim

There's a reason for this; appeals to fulfilled prophecies are easy to shoehorn whatever explanation you want in to make it fulfilled. The older the prophecy, the more time there is for people to find things that fulfill it. It's not miraculous and it's not special. If a religious following gets powerful enough, they can even strong arm and fulfill their own prophecies - just look what Christians did with Israel

Then I believe nothing will convince you. I guess unbelief is a human right, but it carries eternal consequences so you can deny the evidence at your peril

Meh. Appeals to Pasquale's Wager

 

[McBell]

Well if you're able to ignore 356 items of irrefutable evidence, in order to deny the facts. Then I believe nothing will convince you. I guess unbelief is a human right, but it carries eternal consequences so you can deny the evidence at your peril

And the bold empty threats begin...

I was wondering how long it would take.

 

[F1fan]

The Holy bible is Gods Word, because every word in the Bible was God berthed and His Prophets and Disciples wrote the books as they received the inspiration. Many of them didn't understand what they were writing about as much of the Bible is prophesy so the writers never got to se the prophesies fulfilled in their time.

Originally there were over 200 books that were used to teach from, but in 325 there started a series of ecumenical coucels that would decide what the Bible is. They voted on what would be included and what would be discarded. Of over 200 books only 66, or 72, books made the final cut. How do you feel about men doing this massive culling of holy texts?

First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[F1fan]

And the bold empty threats begin...

I was wondering how long it would take.

Just as Jesus taught.