Christians Only: Does God the Father have a physical form like that of a human?

[Desert Snake]

I see. Well, I'm happy to know that you're not a Trinitarian. Neither am I.

You don't have to be a Trinitarian, or even use that word, in order to believe that Jesus is G-d. Ironically, the idea that Jesus is G-d is said by some to be blasphemous, from the Trinitarian perspective. /some churches/; as usual this comes down to definitions of 'trinity', etc. The idea of Jesus being G-d varies within the self or otherwise labeled 'trinitarians'.

 

[Katzpur]

You don't have to be a Trinitarian, or even use that word, in order to believe that Jesus is G-d. Ironically, the idea that Jesus is G-d is said by some to be blasphemous, from the Trinitarian perspective. /some churches/

I know, because I do. But outside of my own religion, I don't run into very many people who, like me, reject the idea of the Trinity but accept that Jesus is God.

as usual this comes down to definitions of 'trinity', etc.

And to the definitions of "God."

 

[Desert Snake]

I know, because I do. But outside of my own religion, I don't run into very many people who, like me, reject the idea of the Trinity but accept that Jesus is God.

And to the definitions of "God."

I think that the word 'trinity' can be, problematic. It doesn't have ''one meaning'', aside from a possible ''trinity doctrine'', which, being realistic, do most Xians or Jesus adherents agree on what 'trinity' means?./ I also would just skip it, personally. Whats the point of making things more confusing.

 

[james2ko]

*edit* I would further state that Mormonism's insistence that "God has a body of flesh and bone, as tangible as man's" is one of traditional Christianity's primary issues with LDS theology. The point of this thread is not specifically to argue the point one way or the other (although it will probably end up turning into one). I don't actually care whether I even get any responses other than your vote on the poll I am posting.

Note: This is in the Same-faith Debates forum. I am asking this question of Christians only.

As those that have been around here for a while know, I never reject a Christian doctrine simply because it is associated with a particular so called sect or cult. It is fallacious behavior dubbed guilty by association. Scripture implies we must test a doctrine against all of the scriptures (not just some) associated with the doctrine and hold fast to what is truth and disregard what is not ((Isa 28:10;1 Th 5:21). I have never been, nor am I ever going to become a Mormon, and disagree with many of their beliefs. But after a comprehensive, unbiased study of what the scriptures have to say on this doctrine, I must admit this particular one is sound and does have scriptural support. Kudos to the mormons for this one.

 

[Katzpur]

As those that have been around here for a while know, I never reject a Christian doctrine simply because it is associated with a particular so called sect or cult. It is fallacious behavior dubbed guilty by association. Scripture implies we must test a doctrine against all of the scriptures (not just some) associated with the doctrine and hold fast to what is truth and disregard what is not ((Isa 28:10;1 Th 5:21). I have never been, nor am I ever going to become a Mormon, and disagree with many of their beliefs. But after a comprehensive, unbiased study of what the scriptures have to say on this doctrine, I must admit this particular one is sound and does have scriptural support. Kudos to the mormons for this one.

One has to be completely confident in his own beliefs to be able to make a statement like this. Evidently you are, so kudos back at you.

 

[james2ko]

One has to be completely confident in his own beliefs to be able to make a statement like this. Evidently you are, so kudos back at you.

I believe some call it a "humble confidence". It is the ability to humbly, yet confidently, alter our belief when proven wrong. If we refuse to do so, we are not growing in grace and knowledge (2 Pet 3:18). I believe God has not privied one human Christian organization --including mine-- to the "full", unerred truth. Many have parts of it, some more than others. The gospels and Paul allude to this. Topic for another thread.

 

[sojourner]

Since Jesus is God-made-flesh, I'd say that, in that instance, God had a corporeal body exactly like that of a human being.

 

[Yoshua]

*edit* I would further state that Mormonism's insistence that "God has a body of flesh and bone, as tangible as man's" is one of traditional Christianity's primary issues with LDS theology. The point of this thread is not specifically to argue the point one way or the other (although it will probably end up turning into one). I don't actually care whether I even get any responses other than your vote on the poll I am posting.

Note: This is in the Same-faith Debates forum. I am asking this question of Christians only.

Hi Katzpur,
John 4:24
24. "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.''
He is spirit; He does not have a physical form.

Eph. 2:6-7
6. who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7. but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men

It is Jesus who have a form of a physical (likeness of men)

Thanks

 

[12jtartar]

I know, because I do. But outside of my own religion, I don't run into very many people who, like me, reject the idea of the Trinity but accept that Jesus is God.

And to the definitions of "God."

Katzpur,
I have noticed your posts for quite a while, and you seem to be gaining in wisdom.
Indeed, Jesus is a god, in fact a mighty god, Isa 9:6. The term in Hebrew is El Gabbohr. The Hebrew for The Almighty God in Hebrew, is El Shaddai. Jesus himself said; The Father is greater than I am, John 14:28.
John 1:1,2 tells us that the word of God is also a god. Ps 110:1, if you have a Bible that is a literal translation, says Jehovah said to my lord, sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.
Jesus, many times prayed fervently to his Father, Matt 26:39, Luke 22:42-44, Heb 5:7-10.
Jesus said that God was his God and his Father, John 20:17.
At Rev 3:12, Jesus says that God is his God 4 times, in this one scripture.
There definitely is not a trinity. The truth is that the Holy Spirit is actually The Almighty God in action, for without His spirit we would all die, Job 34:14,15. Jesus is the son of God, so where is there a trinity???

 

[Katzpur]

Hello Yoshua,

Hi Katzpur,
John 4:24
24. "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.''
He is spirit; He does not have a physical form.

I'm afraid I must disagree with you -- not that God is spirit but that this statement means he does not have a physical form. The greek word "pneuma," which is translated as "spirit" in some verses in the Bible, is translated as "life" in others. I believe that God is spirit, but that this doesn't preclude this spirit from residing within a physical, albeit perfect, body that resembles ours. In other words, I take literally the verses in which man is said to have been created in the image (appearance) of God.

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur,
I have noticed your posts for quite a while, and you seem to be gaining in wisdom.

I hope to be gaining in wisdom every day.

Indeed, Jesus is a god, in fact a mighty god, Isa 9:6. The term in Hebrew is El Gabbohr. The Hebrew for The Almighty God in Hebrew, is El Shaddai. Jesus himself said; The Father is greater than I am, John 14:28.
John 1:1,2 tells us that the word of God is also a god. Ps 110:1, if you have a Bible that is a literal translation, says Jehovah said to my lord, sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.
Jesus, many times prayed fervently to his Father, Matt 26:39, Luke 22:42-44, Heb 5:7-10.
Jesus said that God was his God and his Father, John 20:17.
At Rev 3:12, Jesus says that God is his God 4 times, in this one scripture.
There definitely is not a trinity. The truth is that the Holy Spirit is actually The Almighty God in action, for without His spirit we would all die, Job 34:14,15. Jesus is the son of God, so where is there a trinity???

I agree. There is no "Trinity." The Father and the Son can both be considered and referred to as "God," and yet the Father reigns supreme and is also the Son's God.

 

[Yoshua]

Hello Yoshua, I'm afraid I must disagree with you -- not that God is spirit but that this statement means he does not have a physical form. The greek word "pneuma," which is translated as "spirit" in some verses in the Bible, is translated as "life" in others. I believe that God is spirit, but that this doesn't preclude this spirit from residing within a physical, albeit perfect, body that resembles ours. In other words, I take literally the verses in which man is said to have been created in the image (appearance) of God.

Hi Katzpur,

I understand you position as LDS. But the word "pneuma" is not flesh or body. In the New testament, it says in John 6:63. "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." If the Spirit of God is physical/or a physical form as human. Would you say God is a human, and not a spirit being?
The Spirit is still spirit in nature, and the flesh is still in the fleshy nature/form. If you have a Scripture to support that God is in physical form as in human, I would like to see it.

pneuma: wind, spirit
Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Short Definition: wind, breath, spirit
Definition: wind, breath, spirit.

Thanks

 

[Katzpur]

Hi Katzpur,

I understand you position as LDS. But the word "pneuma" is not flesh or body.

I never said it was. I said it's "life" and God is the very essence of "life."

If the Spirit of God is physical/or a physical form as human. Would you say God is a human, and not a spirit being?

God's spirit is not physical. Christ's spirit was not physical. Our spirits are not physical. Spirits can exist independently of a physical body, but they can also reside within a physical body. When Jesus Christ was here on earth, He was a spirit (i.e. life) residing within a mortal physical body (i.e. a body subject to disease, death, etc.). After His resurrection, He was a spirit (i.e. life) residing within an immortal (perfect, immutable) physical body. I believe that is also the case with His Father: He is a spirit which dwells in an immortal body. The place where a spirit makes its home does not change its nature.

If you have a Scripture to support that God is in physical form as in human, I would like to see it.

Let's not bother. You'd just say He merely appeared to be in human form and that it was just a temporary thing. I'd say He was appearing in His real form.

 

[Yoshua]

God's spirit is not physical. Christ's spirit was not physical. Our spirits are not physical. Spirits can exist independently of a physical body, but they can also reside within a physical body. When Jesus Christ was here on earth, He was a spirit (i.e. life) residing within a mortal physical body (i.e. a body subject to disease, death, etc.). After His resurrection, He was a spirit (i.e. life) residing within an immortal (perfect, immutable) physical body. I believe that is also the case with His Father: He is a spirit which dwells in an immortal body. The place where a spirit makes its home does not change its nature.

Hi Katzpur,

If He was a spirit after resurrection, then it contradicts the Scripture. Jesus able to eat at Luke 24:42-43. He showed His hands and feet with nail prints at Luke 29:39, John 20:27. How would you explain this?

John 20:19-20
19. When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and said to them, "Peace be with you."
20. And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples therefore rejoiced when they saw the Lord.


John 20:25-27
25. The other disciples therefore were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I shall see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."
26. And after eight days again His disciples were inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst, and said, "Peace be with you."
27. Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand, and put it into My side; and be not unbelieving, but believing."

Thanks

 

[james2ko]

Hi Katzpur,

I understand you position as LDS. But the word "pneuma" is not flesh or body. In the New testament, it says in John 6:63. "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." If the Spirit of God is physical/or a physical form as human. Would you say God is a human, and not a spirit being?
The Spirit is still spirit in nature, and the flesh is still in the fleshy nature/form. If you have a Scripture to support that God is in physical form as in human, I would like to see it.

pneuma: wind, spirit
Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Short Definition: wind, breath, spirit
Definition: wind, breath, spirit.

Thanks

BTW. I am not nor was I ever LDS. There are examples in scripture of God actually having head, hair, face, arms, fingers, hands, waist, loins, eyes, eyelids, nostrils, ears, mouth, lips, tongue, breath, feet, and back parts. God even speaks of His heart! He rests, but He does not get tired. He feels things. He eats and drinks, and the alcohol in wine, as Judges 9:13 says, has an effect on Him: It cheers His heart. He laughs. He becomes angry. Sounds a great deal like us, does it not? It should because He made us in His image and likeness.

One can dismiss these anthropomorphisms as poetic prose if read in isolation, but when we put all of the scriptures and accounts together, there's no doubt in my mind God the Father, the Son, all of His angels are a hybrid composition of spirit, flesh, and bone. Different than our current composition of only flesh, blood, and bone. If deemed worthy, God will reward us with a "body" like His (1 Jn 3:2).

 

[Katzpur]

If He was a spirit after resurrection, then it contradicts the Scripture. Jesus able to eat at Luke 24:42-43. He showed His hands and feet with nail prints at Luke 29:39, John 20:27. How would you explain this?

You've misunderstood me, Yoshua. I definitely believe that Jesus Christ had a physical body after His resurrection, and that each of us will, too. And if I were trying to convince somebody of that, I would use exactly the same verses as you quoted.

What I was saying was that it is a spirit that gives a body life. When God breathed the breath of life into Adam's nostrils, Adam became a living soul. It is this "breath of life" (or spirit) that gives life. When the spirit leaves the body at death, the body no longer has that breath of life and consequently dies. The body is then just a lifeless shell until the day it is resurrected -- again, by the spirit returning to reside in it. When Jesus died, He commended His spirit into His Father's hands. While His body lay in the tomb, lifeless, His spirit visited the spirits in prison and taught them His gospel. But then, on the third day, His spirit gave His body renewed life and it was resurrected from the dead.

My point is that each of us has a spirit, and it is the spirit that gives us life. A spirit can exist within a physical body or it can exist independently of a body (as Jesus' spirit did for three days). So in a very real sense, we are all spirit + body. You and I apparently believe that the risen Christ is also spirit + body. Mormons take it one step further and believe that God the Father is also spirit + body. The scriptures describe Him as being spirit, but they also describe Him as being light and love. None of these things are definitions of who He is; they are merely some of His attributes. Nowhere does the Bible say, "God does not have a body in addition to being spirit," but it does give us many clues that He does. It's only when those clues are ignored or explained away that God is seen as being merely a spirit and nothing else.

 

[Katzpur]

Here's something else I find interesting. The Apostle Peter definitely that God has a body. This conversation is taken from the Clementine Homilies, a Jewish Christian document based on a second-century source:

And Simon said: "I should like to know, Peter, if you really believe that the shape of man has been moulded after the shape of God." And Peter said: "I am really quite certain, Simon, that this is the case... It is the shape of the just God."

For He has shape, and He has every limb primarily and solely for beauty's sake, and not for use. For He has not eyes that He may see with them; for He sees on every side, since He is incomparably more brilliant in His body than the visual spirit which is in us, and He is more splendid than everything, so that in comparison with Him the light of the sun may be reckoned as darkness. Nor has He ears that He may hear; for He hears, perceives, moves, energizes, acts on every side. But He has the most beautiful shape on account of man, that the pure in heart, may be able to see Him, that they may rejoice because they suffered. For He moulded man in His own shape as in the greatest seal, in order that he may be the ruler and lord of all, and that all may be subject to him."

 

[Yoshua]

You've misunderstood me, Yoshua. I definitely believe that Jesus Christ had a physical body after His resurrection, and that each of us will, too. And if I were trying to convince somebody of that, I would use exactly the same verses as you quoted.

What I was saying was that it is a spirit that gives a body life. When God breathed the breath of life into Adam's nostrils, Adam became a living soul. It is this "breath of life" (or spirit) that gives life. When the spirit leaves the body at death, the body no longer has that breath of life and consequently dies. The body is then just a lifeless shell until the day it is resurrected -- again, by the spirit returning to reside in it. When Jesus died, He commended His spirit into His Father's hands. While His body lay in the tomb, lifeless, His spirit visited the spirits in prison and taught them His gospel. But then, on the third day, His spirit gave His body renewed life and it was resurrected from the dead.

My point is that each of us has a spirit, and it is the spirit that gives us life. A spirit can exist within a physical body or it can exist independently of a body (as Jesus' spirit did for three days). So in a very real sense, we are all spirit + body. You and I apparently believe that the risen Christ is also spirit + body. Mormons take it one step further and believe that God the Father is also spirit + body. The scriptures describe Him as being spirit, but they also describe Him as being light and love. None of these things are definitions of who He is; they are merely some of His attributes. Nowhere does the Bible say, "God does not have a body in addition to being spirit," but it does give us many clues that He does. It's only when those clues are ignored or explained away that God is seen as being merely a spirit and nothing else.

Katzpur,

I believed that we have a spirit plus our body (flesh). But I don't believe that God is spirit plus body. This doctrine should be proven in the Scriptures if you have. If none, this will just a fabricated concept. I'm very particular with doctrines because one error leads to different theology.

Here's something else I find interesting. The Apostle Peter definitely that God has a body. This conversation is taken from the Clementine Homilies, a Jewish Christian document based on a second-century source:

And Simon said: "I should like to know, Peter, if you really believe that the shape of man has been moulded after the shape of God." And Peter said: "I am really quite certain, Simon, that this is the case... It is the shape of the just God."

For He has shape, and He has every limb primarily and solely for beauty's sake, and not for use. For He has not eyes that He may see with them; for He sees on every side, since He is incomparably more brilliant in His body than the visual spirit which is in us, and He is more splendid than everything, so that in comparison with Him the light of the sun may be reckoned as darkness. Nor has He ears that He may hear; for He hears, perceives, moves, energizes, acts on every side. But He has the most beautiful shape on account of man, that the pure in heart, may be able to see Him, that they may rejoice because they suffered. For He moulded man in His own shape as in the greatest seal, in order that he may be the ruler and lord of all, and that all may be subject to him."

Sorry, I don't take this as an evidence that God is spirit plus body.

Thanks

 

[Katzpur]

I believed that we have a spirit plus our body (flesh). But I don't believe that God is spirit plus body. This doctrine should be proven in the Scriptures if you have. If none, this will just a fabricated concept. I'm very particular with doctrines because one error leads to different theology.

And I believe there is far more evidence in the scriptures that God has a body than there is that He doesn't.

Sorry, I don't take this as an evidence that God is spirit plus body.

Well, I didn't actually expect you to. After all, the Clementine Homilies are not part of the Bible, and I expect it would be accurate to say that you probably believe in the doctrine of sola scriptura. I was just pointing out that one of Jesus' closest associates believed that God does have a body.

 

[Yoshua]

And I believe there is far more evidence in the scriptures that God has a body than there is that He doesn't.

Hi Katzpur,

When we say God has a body, that would mean He has literally a body, a human flesh? if not, how can you reconcile that God is spirit and has a body? That will mean that the nature of spirit is a body.

Well, I didn't actually expect you to. After all, the Clementine Homilies are not part of the Bible, and I expect it would be accurate to say that you probably believe in the doctrine of sola scriptura. I was just pointing out that one of Jesus' closest associates believed that God does have a body.

Yes, I do.

Thanks