Cannabis and violence, mass killings

[Father Heathen]

When are we going to ban alcoholic beverages ?

Exactly. It's hugely hypocritical to support the prohibition of cannabis yet not of alcohol, considering that the latter is far more unhealthy and dangerous than the former.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Exactly. It's hugely hypocritical to support the prohibition of cannabis yet not of alcohol, considering that the latter is far more unhealthy and dangerous than the former.

Did you read my reply to that? I wouldn't mind greater restrictions on alcohol as well, more taxing, etc. though I couldn't support an outright ban because it is too widespread and popular. And as I said then, if alcohol was already an illegal drug that was not used by the majority, as cannabis is, I would oppose its legalisation.

 

[Father Heathen]

Did you read my reply to that? I wouldn't mind greater restrictions on alcohol as well, more taxing, etc. though I couldn't support an outright ban because it is too widespread and popular. And as I said then, if alcohol was already an illegal drug that was not used by the majority, as cannabis is, I would oppose its legalisation.

It was a general statement rather than directed at anyone specifically. Personally, I believe people should have freedom with their own minds and bodies.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co...sian-killer-was-on-cannabis-too-so-what-.html

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/06/what-are-you-afraid-of-.html

There seems to be a disturbing correlation in many of the recent mass killings and irrational acts of violence we have had. Many seem to be heavy cannabis users. People are immediately dismissive of such a notion, cannabis users are harmless stoners, but sure, that's the majority. Could you entertain the possibility that a minority of heavy users are psychiatrically affected by the drug, and prone to irrational acts of violence?

From the article I've posted above:
"the culprits of the 2011 Tucson massacre,at which Congreswoman Gabrielle Giffords was terribly wounded and six people died, the culprits of the beheading of Jennifer Mills Westley in Tenerife, of the beheading of Mrs Palmira Silva in London, of the grotesque murder of Lee Rigby in Woolwich, of the Charlie Hebdo and related killings in Paris, of the killings of two Canadian soldiers in the past year, of the bludgeoning to death of Sheffield church organist Alan Greaves, not to mention a large number of other notably violent and deranged, irrational crimes ( see: http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2011/07/high-and-violent.html ) have all been revealed to be cannabis users. Now this killer [the Tunisian shooter] has been revealed to be a cannabis user too."

As the writer of this article also says, I am not personally claiming that cannabis is causing these acts of violence. However, it is a disturbing correlation, and surely, as the writer is calling for, some sort of inquiry should be had into what exactly is going on?

I urge people to read the articles and research the matter (the above listed events are not the only ones where the perpetrators were cannabis users, there are many more, and many which we simply don't have access to records to know if they did or not. Another example would by Dylan Roof, the Charleston church shooter, who was also a heavy cannabis user). I hope people will not immediately jump to emotional conclusions, dismissing it as false. I would like to re-iterate, I am not claiming that cannabis causes mass violence, I do not have enough evidence for such a claim, but am pointing out there is a disturbing correlation and would like a proper inquiry into it to investigate.

The problem is that 100% of the people who turned to these kinds of acts had mental issues themselves apart from any kind of drug use and typically sustained some kind of ill fated circumstance either at home or elsewhere. I would imagine that there would be a correlation of "coke drinking" and these murders as well.

All studies have shown rather conclusively that heavy cannabis usage inhibits violence and pretty much any other kind of physical activity. What we can probably assume from this is that these were highly troubled people who sought out help from drugs. Its possible that cannabis was appealing to these tortured individuals as it probably helped them keep calm and chill.

Seems far more likely when we look at the evidence rather than the conclusion based on a loose correlation which is in stark contrast with the overwhelming majority of evidence to the contrary.

 

[Yerda]

On Peter Hitchens and his position regarding drugs and the war on drugs here is an Alex Massie column in the Spectator from a couple of years back. A little off-topic.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-m...-the-internet-there-really-is-a-war-on-drugs/

 

[Nada]

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co...sian-killer-was-on-cannabis-too-so-what-.html

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/06/what-are-you-afraid-of-.html

There seems to be a disturbing correlation in many of the recent mass killings and irrational acts of violence we have had. Many seem to be heavy cannabis users. People are immediately dismissive of such a notion, cannabis users are harmless stoners, but sure, that's the majority. Could you entertain the possibility that a minority of heavy users are psychiatrically affected by the drug, and prone to irrational acts of violence?

From the article I've posted above:
"the culprits of the 2011 Tucson massacre,at which Congreswoman Gabrielle Giffords was terribly wounded and six people died, the culprits of the beheading of Jennifer Mills Westley in Tenerife, of the beheading of Mrs Palmira Silva in London, of the grotesque murder of Lee Rigby in Woolwich, of the Charlie Hebdo and related killings in Paris, of the killings of two Canadian soldiers in the past year, of the bludgeoning to death of Sheffield church organist Alan Greaves, not to mention a large number of other notably violent and deranged, irrational crimes ( see: http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2011/07/high-and-violent.html ) have all been revealed to be cannabis users. Now this killer [the Tunisian shooter] has been revealed to be a cannabis user too."

As the writer of this article also says, I am not personally claiming that cannabis is causing these acts of violence. However, it is a disturbing correlation, and surely, as the writer is calling for, some sort of inquiry should be had into what exactly is going on?

I urge people to read the articles and research the matter (the above listed events are not the only ones where the perpetrators were cannabis users, there are many more, and many which we simply don't have access to records to know if they did or not. Another example would by Dylan Roof, the Charleston church shooter, who was also a heavy cannabis user). I hope people will not immediately jump to emotional conclusions, dismissing it as false. I would like to re-iterate, I am not claiming that cannabis causes mass violence, I do not have enough evidence for such a claim, but am pointing out there is a disturbing correlation and would like a proper inquiry into it to investigate.

I wonder what people would think if they all drank Starbucks?

 

[Nada]

Weed smokers are usually calm.Then again,everyone has problems.Most are just kickback.

 

[Ouroboros]

Water, births and vaginas are not mind-altering drugs (although many would argue the latter is). Cannabis is correlated with mental health disorders and is known to make them worse, and have multiple negative effects on a heavy user's mental health.

Individuals who have displayed psychotic, irrational acts of violence, sharing a common factor in heavy use of cannabis, a mind-altering drug, cannot be so easily discarded as comparing it to them drinking water or other ordinary activities. Such a sarcastic dismissal of such a correlation reminds me of Big Tobacco dismissing the correlation between cigarettes and lung cancer, this was before cigarettes were determined to have been the cause. The age-old mantra of "correlation is not causation" was used, but thankfully it was not used to suppress further investigation that revealed cigarettes were indeed causative. I am asking for further investigation, a proper government-led inquiry into the matter.

Also, I'd like to point out that I had to mention twice in my original post that I was not claiming cannabis had caused these acts of violence. I would have hoped seasoned members of this forum knew how to argue properly by now and not attack strawmen. Of course, inevitably my position was misrepresented to mean something different and become easier to attack and parody. I was pointing out there appeared to be a correlation, and a correlation that ought to be investigated further.

The point is that these psychotic, violent people who are heavy users of cannabis are so because of the underlying issues, or mental disorder they already have. Cannabis use is only a symptom in their case (correlated, not causative), which means any ban, taxation, or whatever means or method to control the substance will not change those violent, psychotic people's underlying mental health. They will only find other ways of getting high during their psychosis. They could just as well breathe spray cans (yeah, you can get high from just breathing the gas in whip-cream canisters, outlawing whip-cream won't solve the problem).

The tongue-in-cheek posts earlier posts to this problem quite clearly. Water and psychosis are correlated. Coffee and psychosis is as well.

Water intoxication and symptoms of psychosis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1770067/

High use of coffee linked to induced psychosis: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-06-21/high-caffeine-use-linked-to-psychotic-symptoms/2766144

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If so, where does the study say cannabis use itself did not cause the disorders? They found a correlation, but what evidence did they find it did not cause the disorders, does it even make that claim?

When the study was first announced by the media, the head researcher gave a statement that there was no correlation to suggest that pot usage caused mental illnesses - a response he gave to the media that hyped it up as if that's what the study was saying. Even though it's widely speculated that the increased chance of usage is due to self-medication, the study itself did not delve into it as that was outside of the scope of the research. And they never will find a strong enough correlation to link pot to causing mental illness, because there are a ton of people who smoke pot who don't have mental illnesses and function normally within society.

Individuals who have displayed psychotic, irrational acts of violence, sharing a common factor in heavy use of cannabis, a mind-altering drug,

Cannabis is not mind altering. It may give a "scenic route" in your thought process, in some it may open the flood-gates of creativity, but mind-altering it is not.
Now, if you want to discuss psilocybin mushrooms or LSD, substances that give you entirely different perspectives and allow you to literally view the world differently and granting you new perspectives (they're both especially helpful in people managing end-of-life anxieties), those are mind altering.
There is also no correlation between pot and "irrational acts of violence." In a round-about way, that's like saying Bob Marley sung of hatred, chaos, and mass murders.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The tongue-in-cheek posts earlier posts to this problem quite clearly. Water and psychosis are correlated. Coffee and psychosis is as well.

Caffeine is something that can lead to stress, anxiety, and agitation, and things like difficulty sleeping, which exacerbates the issues of stress, anxiety, and agitation, which those too can exacerbate difficulty sleeping. And not too mention caffeine abuse is destructive to the body, especially the heart. But it's OK that we have Red Bull and Monster advertisements everywhere (something I don't understand), and we'll viciously attack pot, something that just is not a problem for the general population.

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

Cannabis can lead to psychosis in certain individuals, the stronger stuff available now can cause greater problems than the less potent varieties of the past. This is a fact.

Psychosis =/= violence. Mentally ill people are more likely to be the victims of violence from the mentally "well" than to commit violence upon them.

 

[Tiapan]

Cause or effect?
I think this article while intentions are good, lacks credibility, where are the facts. It seems to me other factors such as social isolation, social prejudices, unemployment, radicalizing blogs, violent video games and religious contradictions are of far greater significance than pot use, which is more likely a symptom of the persons general malaise and not necessarily the cause.

Cheers

 

[vaguelyhumanoid]

violent video games

...are we really still doing this?

 

[Paranoid Android]

A study a few years ago showed that those with mental disorders are more likely to use cannabis, though the cannabis use itself does not cause the disorders.

No, it's not. If anything, the stronger types are better because you use less.

Yeah. 60% of people that use drugs also have a mental problem.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

I smoke ganja on occasion and be rest assured, I wish to kill no one. I could kill a sandwich or two or possibly kill some time reading, possibly take a nap. I think it definitely depends on the person. It is most likely they had that brewing in them already. I seen nice people turn into crazy people after one too many drinks. My personal opinion, it isn't the plant.

 

[MARCELLO]

How can you make crime when you are sleepy,even too lazy to turn off music ?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yeah. 60% of people that use drugs also have a mental problem.

I doubt the number is actually high. Not unless your definition of drugs is highly selective, choosy, and arbitrary.
Although most people do not think about it, caffeine is a drug. It's a stimulant. It effects the body. It has the potential for abuse (which is very widespread throughout society), and is addictive (something else that is widespread throughout society). We say "drugs and alcohol." We are so desperate to pretend that what we like, those things that are socially different, are somehow different to the point we even put it in our heads that's an entirely different category. But alcohol too is a drug. Pharmaceutical are also drugs, and many are deadly when abused.
The reality is, most people use drugs. Getting a morning cup of coffee to start the day isn't that much different than starting it with a line of coke. It's easier to overdose on coke than caffeine (typically, unless you are taking caffeine pills or using way too much energy drink mix), but someone addicted to coke can get help, and a coke user is more likely to be aware of the risks than a caffeine user.

 

[Paranoid Android]

Shhhhhhhhhhhh...You can't talk about that at RF. You may get punished for talking about D-R-U-G-S. They can't stand you talking about it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Shhhhhhhhhhhh...You can't talk about that at RF. You may get punished for talking about D-R-U-G-S. They can't stand you talking about it.

You can talk about them, you just can't talk about doing anything illegal (the rules were updated some time ago to reflect the changing legal status of pot in America). I've probably poured out a text book worth of information about pot here on RF over my 10 years as a member.

 

[Paranoid Android]

You can talk about them, you just can't talk about doing anything illegal (the rules were updated some time ago to reflect the changing legal status of pot in America). I've probably poured out a text book worth of information about pot here on RF over my 10 years as a member.

Why do they have rules against talking about our Sacrament ?