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Atheists: does God exist?

EconGuy

Active Member
Righteousness, is always righteous. The environment or circumstance doesn't change the qualifications of the principle.

And yet, you've failed on several occasions to explain the acts taken by the Christian god in the Bible that violate the very principles you claim to hold so dear.

And before you make the argument that an act is wrong when you or I do it, but ok when a god does it, try to remember the unavoidable consequences of holding that position. That being that right and wrong have nothing to do with human experience, but merely the command of a god. Thus righteousness is just whatever god commands. If god commands you to rape, would it not be "good"?

Ironically, the argument you used that atheists have to believe nature is "good", is exactly what the theist position is. "Right" is whatever god says it is, and in fact we have examples of where god does what I think we'd agree are immoral things if a human were to do them and you're only defense is to claim that immoral acts are ok when god does them, but not ok when humans do them, sort of leaving you in a pickle. Either righteousness, is not always righteous or righteousness is what god says it is in which case it could be anything, because gods commands have nothing to do with the well-being of humans.
 

DNB

Christian
It must be because I'm a decent human being that has a well formed moral sense. I have empathy, don't you?

Look at the God of the Old Testament and see that morals you would follow.

That is what all the violence and crimes against humanity that fills the Old Testament, which represents your God. Being mature and enlightened is a state that goes beyond primal urges and actions.

Humans are too naive to think for themselves, and believe we need reloigious rules to obey, is the primitive behavior. And if you are anti-science, well that is a deeper decent from a mature and well-informed framework.

Humans are primates. You indicate a very poor understanding of how things are, so at a severe disadvantage in these debates.
...beware of anyone who considers themselves to be a 'decent human being' - they're typically not.
...they neither understand or know the full extent of the word, nor do they fully perceive their own indecencies.
 

EconGuy

Active Member
You should be careful as to how denigrating that you are towards an extremely profound concept - it makes you look naive and oblivious.

Irony alert.
No other creature on this planet, but man, has a moral compass.

A boast of profound hubris. But even if it's true, so what?
You care about injustices whether they affect you or not, not because it brings unwanted suffering. It is because it elicits empathy and compassion.

These things are related.
One does not derive concern for others from stardust and protoplasm, or any cosmic slime.

No one has claimed that but you. Another strawman.

You sound incredibly 'silly' when you show that you are unaware of this.

No sillier than you making an argument that literally no one ever, has made.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
...beware of anyone who considers themselves to be a 'decent human being' - they're typically not.
How would you know? Are you a decent human being?

But you are correct that rational minds are wary of believers who claim some sort of moral advantage just because they are believers. It's not as if Christians are consistently moral people.
...they neither understand or know the full extent of the word, nor do they fully perceive their own indecencies.
What makes the word what you think it is? Your say so? The people who told you what to believe about it? I have to say Christians have a very sketchy history. From this history faith and devotion is very unreliable. Let;s not forget that Christians in the 17th century tortured and executed some 30,000 for witchcraft, because that was in the Bible. That would be about half a million people today adjusted for population growth. And Christians justified slavery in the Confederate South because it was in the Bible. And don;t ignore that it was Christians who committed the Holocaust. So tell us more about how awesome you are because you value the "word". The full extent of Christian belief is that they will commit terrible crimes in the name of God.

How is your pride feeling now?
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Well then you have absolutely no right to either condemn or condone another person's actions.
Who said I did? I will however likely have the normal reaction to criticise or even condemn what I consider bad behaviour when I see it, no matter where it comes from, even if I might not be so judgmental as to think anyone is inherently bad or evil because of doing whatever. This because we as humans do tend towards agreeing as to a set of morals that few might dispute - unless supported/unsupported by a particular belief system - and with the proviso that the societies of the world are not all at the same levels of development. The example of FGM being one, where it is mostly banned worldwide but where over 90% of females in a few countries have to suffer this - seemingly because of their culture and/or patriarchy having a tight grip over them.
If you can't make up your mind as to what's right or wrong, then you must suffer the consequences of your indecisiveness.
Like many I think, I do tend to recognise good and bad behaviour - as I perceive such - and mostly because I have worked such out for myself and/or this has come from a lifetime of witnessing behaviour and the consequences of this. Hence why my views have changed with progress - as per homosexuality being illegal for much of my life but now legal in the UK, as for so many other countries too, and my acceptance of such. The same is happening with regards trans issues at the moment and why I have no certain beliefs either way. Why would I see myself having the right to judge others and not being in their place to understand how they feel or experience life?
I think that sex outside of marriage is wrong, and even within the confines of marriage there's a narrow line as to what's respectful and inconsequential.
I'm against all recreational drugs, violence, abuse, bigotries, intoxication, gluttony, lying, cheating, arrogance, vanity, laziness, excessive wealth without philanthropy, high stakes gambling, abortion, all forms of homosexuality and trans.
Too long a list to go into all of this, and as to much I might agree, but not the last few, given they tend to harm few others and seem to come from 'our' nature, as a species.
The majority of people will agree with 75% of the above - I can't think of more controversial ones right now. But if I could, I'd be on either one side or the other, not indifferent or ambivalent.
Times change, and once many agreed with capital punishment but such is banned now in the more progressive countries, even if for many their inclinations are to want it brought back for some of the more horrendous crimes.

From some of the above, and as to such many with religious beliefs will not agree, the difference between religious beliefs and those without will likely be that those without religious beliefs are probably going to be more flexible as to changing attitudes - simply because they can and are not fixated on certain dogma from a religion - or simply that those with a religion are the ones changing more slowly. And this perhaps seen by the numbers leaving religions even if some religions also seem to be increasing in numbers too.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
How would you know? Are you a decent human being?

But you are correct that rational minds are wary of believers who claim some sort of moral advantage just because they are believers. It's not as if Christians are consistently moral people.

...

How do you know what a decent human is?
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
It's a very ill-defined question and open to interpretation and thus probably a very interesting forum question.

The Big Bang theory posits that the universe began from an extremely dense and hot state. If a concentration of matter becomes sufficiently dense, it can lead to the formation of a black hole, where space-time is so curved that not even light can escape. The Big Bang, however, was not a black hole; instead, it was the event that initiated the expansion of space-time itself. According to the theory, time and space as we understand them began with the Big Bang and did not exist before that event.

Perhaps the laws of physics evolve based on the universe they are allowed to play in. If there was no time before the Big Bang then what is god? The entity that clapped his hands to set it all in motion and is just now standing back watching us? (I guess I am anthropomorphizing god to have human hands?) Are we just a seeded simulation of many other simulations? I don't think I can answer the question accurately. (Probably why I lean more towards agnosticism these days)

I hope all is well.
Science starts the universe at an arbitrary point called the Big Bang. As we look out at the universe, farther and farther away, they see snapshots of the past, all the way to a very compact beginning. The logical question is, what laws of nature created the primordial atom, needed for the Big Bang Theory, if the Big Bang Theory says the current forces of nature were not yet in the universe, until after the Big Bang? There had to be a different set of laws in effect, before the current set. Did this formation of the current set of laws, shut off the old set, or are both sets in effect? My guess is both sets are in effect, and what we call random is an artifact of assuming one set instead of two.

Science does there same thing with life, starting the evolution of life at the first replicators, with RNA or DNA magically already formed, just like the primordial atom. Once the primordial atom or the first replicators form, then it is off to the races. However, the unknown that came before that should impact the vector of the theory that follows. The past, before the formation of the primordial atom or the formation of the first replicators, had their own history and laws. Do these just shut off to make easier for science to half bake the universe and life, using the convenient starting points?

As an analogy, say a new person begins employment where you work. They stay very private, so all you really know about them is what you observe during work. Does their private life before you first meet, have any lingering impact on who they are today? The answer is yes. Can you just ignore their formative years, and make up a theory from just the data you know? The answer is also yes. Will those two theories always converge? The answer is no. Maybe that new person is just quiet? Maybe they are in the witness protection program and seek to stay low? Maybe they got fired for sleeping with their previous boss's secretary, and are now gun shy due to being naturally flirtatious. Maybe his wife is very jealous.

In terms of cosmology, dark energy and dark matter were introduced to help explain deeper observational data about superstructures of the universe. However, these two variables have never been seen in the laboratory, to know if they are real or just placeholder variables until the base theory can be updates and/or revised.

Evolution has historical data that shows the stages of evolving life. However, the theory is not solid enough to be used to make future predictions other than qualitative one's. It is more of a correlation of the past, than a fully rational theory for the future. A fully rational theory can correlate the past, present and future since the underlying mechanisms follows the laws of cause and effect, and not dice and cards.

If you assume dice and cards; statistical universe, you can still systematically plot the data of every lottery winner, from every state, since the lottery began in the USA. However, once you get to the present and future, it is a mystery. Dice and cards cannot successfully pick winners, since how that is possible, is not exactly known. This not a fully rational theory, since the mechanism of theory is too volatile, to get a sharp curve to the future. However, many still get excited about plotting the past data; lottery winners, and assume that alone is proof of concept, that dice and cards does not work; beyond 20/20 hindsight.

To break the tie; so we know the past, present and the future, we need to know more about how the primordial atom appeared before the current laws of physics. And we need to know more about what happened leading to the rise of the first replicators. My guess is these past events, that shaped their debut behavior, are there still like lingering vectors, that still help to steer the future.

We live in space-time where time and space act like they are in a three legged race, where two people are tethered together to run as one. This creates a handicap, since both variables are limited by the other. This tether placed limits called the laws of physics in space-time. The speed of light is the fastest you can go in space-time, with speed=d/t the tethered dimensions of space (d)-time (t). In the case of speed these are tethered by division; d/t.

Say we could cut the tether of the three legged race of space-time. Now we would have the two variables, that both lose their former limitations. Now each run the race all by themselves at full speed. The laws of physics would have many more possibilities, if we did not have the tether of space-time. If you could move space apart from time, you could be omnipresent. An electron in an atomic orbital; probability function is omnipresent in its little part of the universe. Omnipresent is also a classic attribute of God; untethered space and untethered time.

From that very flexible untethered beginning, we have the potential for infinite complexity or infinite entropy. Conceptually, this could be the drive behind the second law; entropy for the universe has to increase. In this model our universe of space-time, is suspended within the matrix of untethered space and time. It feels the pull back to infinite complexity and the second law with space-time resisting.

From the position of untethered space and time, space-time could be created; add the tether. This will imposes all types of limitations; new laws of physics appear, compared to the laws in the matrix of infinite complexity. This connects the second law. If we were to connect independent space and independent time with a tether, then we would get energy from nothing, since photons are wavelength and frequency that act as one thing needs a tether to sustain. Also to go from infinite complexity, to a zone of lower complexity; primordial atom, the local loss of entropy, will be very exothermic. The primordial atom formation; space-time, will release free energy and also create photons for the Big Bang out of what appears to be as void, based on the laws of space-time.

The way we close this loop is consciousness appears to be able to process data, as though space and time are not connected. The religions of world believe in things that cannot be proven by science and laws of space-time; God. Consciousness is not limited to just processing the laws of space-time, but can postulate outside that box, since untethered space and time have more options. Human creation in terms of innovation allows humans to create artificial things that do not naturally appear from nature. These are outside the laws, although to be stable in reality, the innovation has to be expressed via material under the laws of space-time; build a bridge.

If you look at science fiction, it is about stories of consciousness evolving and developing the advanced tools needed to extend the laws of physics beyond nature to the extreme artificial. If we extrapolate that, consciousness and its connection to separated space and time, becomes infinite; consciousness merges with creation; God and which came first the chicken or the egg.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why do you even care about murder or rape - if there's no God
If there's nobody to punish you for raping, why wouldn't I? This shows the poverty of your moral mindset.
To have to lie to get away from a threat, doesn't make lying correct.
But lying to people with threats of hell is cool with you?
To have to steal to eat, doesn't change the sinister aspect of stealing.
Is this the love of which you speak?
you have absolutely no right to either condemn or condone another person's actions.
You don't seem to mind doing that.
I think that sex outside of marriage is wrong
Here you go right off the bat judging and condemning others.
that's as good as it gets for you and your wife.
Yes, and we're content with it. We'd be ungrateful no to be.
Paul: '...man cannot fathom the riches that God has instore for those who believe...'
I have no reason to believe that. Neither do you.
You should be careful as to how denigrating that you are towards an extremely profound concept - it makes you look naive and oblivious.
Thought crimes are for the believer to worry about.
beware of anyone who considers themselves to be a 'decent human being' - they're typically not.
Except you, right?

What a dismal psychology.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
How do you know what a decent human is?
Are you confused about it yourself? Don't you have life experiences that inform you what being decent is and what isn't?

Much of what I understand is a combination of life experiences and empathy. I've definately learned that being religious does not guarantee being a decent person, and we all much rely on our own m oral sense and thinking to determine what good social attitudes are.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Are you confused about it yourself? Don't you have life experiences that inform you what being decent is and what isn't?

Much of what I understand is a combination of life experiences and empathy. I've definately learned that being religious does not guarantee being a decent person, and we all much rely on our own m oral sense and thinking to determine what good social attitudes are.

And being an athiest doesn't guarentee that. And it is not given there is an universal we for the same good.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
And being an athiest doesn't guarentee that.
"Being an atheist" doesn't mean anything. There's nothing to follow that would offer rules or a guarantee. That would be religions that do it. And even with rules many believers stll behave contrary to the ideals they claim to follow. This is why a focus of personal accountability has an advantage over following a st of rules where a person thinks has authority and is morally sound as they believe it. The irony of religious belief is that the mortal still is responsible for assigning the religion meaning, authority, and correctness. It's a murkiness I'd think you would find attractive.

When I was growing up I learned from Christians around me that gays were bad people. I learned from a racist uncle that blacks were lesser humans. As I matured I thought about this influence and was conflicted, but I ended up deferring to what my own moral sense dictated, and understood that others in my life experience may not be as good as they claim, even if Christian.
And it is not given there is an universal we for the same good.
Of course not. Look at how anti-democratic MAGAs are and how their attitudes are contrary to ethical Americans. Look at book banning. Look at anti-gay and anti-trans and anti-abortion attitudes that achieve nothing more than harm against citizens. Look at how Russia is trying to justify its war in Ukraine. Or how Hamas and Netanyahu are trying to justify war in Gaza. Look at any civil war and you will find a divide of what is good and necessary. Many Germans of the 1940's considered it good to eliminate Jews from Europe. When good serves the self at the cost of others ONLY because they are a category of humans then the "good" is questionable.

Societies are both simple and complex. Many citizens are driven by an ideal society and end up destroying it. Others want stability and tolernace, and this conflict is where war comes from. No one ever claims to want it, yet something in the mindset of people make it happen. To my mind it is those who use a social ideal as a way to define the individual run the risk of being lost in some illusion that they will inevitably kill and die for.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
"Being an atheist" doesn't mean anything. There's nothing to follow that would offer rules or a guarantee. That would be religions that do it. And even with rules many believers stll behave contrary to the ideals they claim to follow. This is why a focus of personal accountability has an advantage over following a st of rules where a person thinks has authority and is morally sound as they believe it. The irony of religious belief is that the mortal still is responsible for assigning the religion meaning, authority, and correctness. It's a murkiness I'd think you would find attractive.

When I was growing up I learned from Christians around me that gays were bad people. I learned from a racist uncle that blacks were lesser humans. As I matured I thought about this influence and was conflicted, but I ended up deferring to what my own moral sense dictated, and understood that others in my life experience may not be as good as they claim, even if Christian.

Of course not. Look at how anti-democratic MAGAs are and how their attitudes are contrary to ethical Americans. Look at book banning. Look at anti-gay and anti-trans and anti-abortion attitudes that achieve nothing more than harm against citizens. Look at how Russia is trying to justify its war in Ukraine. Or how Hamas and Netanyahu are trying to justify war in Gaza. Look at any civil war and you will find a divide of what is good and necessary. Many Germans of the 1940's considered it good to eliminate Jews from Europe. When good serves the self at the cost of others ONLY because they are a category of humans then the "good" is questionable.

Societies are both simple and complex. Many citizens are driven by an ideal society and end up destroying it. Others want stability and tolernace, and this conflict is where war comes from. No one ever claims to want it, yet something in the mindset of people make it happen. To my mind it is those who use a social ideal as a way to define the individual run the risk of being lost in some illusion that they will inevitably kill and die for.

Yeah, that depends on your cultural understanding of what makes a religion a religion. I have another understand. So I think we should just stop here. :)
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Do you mean how some religious extremists consider their beliefs as absolute truth, and have no doubts about it, and will act accordingly?

An odd thing to do, abruptly.

No, you consider relgion is be in effect X and not Y. I consider it Y and not X. And we have been here before about what is rational and so on. I see no reason to do it again.
I shouldn't have answer your post, but I had forget our previous debates.
 
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