• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Atheist Terrorism

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
I'd like Atheists to;

i) stop white washing their own history and read about the stuff that makes them uncomfortable so they have a better understanding of the truth.
Still don't know the difference between militant anti-theism and atheism?
ii) start saying "atheists were violent,
We can't say that you see because those who were violent were militant anti-theists and are not representative of atheism.
iii) come up with their own moral responses to these questions rather than simply "inherit" christian morality that "thou shall not kill".
LOL. "Thou shalt not kill" isn't "christian morality". We have a survival instinct and live in societies. If we killed each other we wouldn't survive you see and we all try to avoid getting killed because we have a survival instinct. So of course we invent religions saying "thou shalt not kill." Did you really think that was something the Christians came up with?
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
LOL. "Thou shalt not kill" isn't "christian morality". We have a survival instinct and live in societies. If we killed each other we wouldn't survive you see and we all try to avoid getting killed because we have a survival instinct. So of course we invent religions saying "thou shalt not kill." Did you really think that was something the Christians came up with?

"Thou Shall Not Kill" is a strange moral statement to make, given that in practice it represents a largely tribal morality which didn't apply to Christianity's enemies, both foreign and domestic. I should qualify that there is another translation of the commandment as "thou shall not murder" which leaves open the possibility of "justified" killing such as in war-time. So whilst it's possible to argue that it is part of our survival instinct, it works both ways; in order to survive we kill those outside of the tirbe whilst protecting those who belong to it. So It isn't an accurate description of their behaviour or history. so assuming that it does represent a "human" morality- we should actually study the relationship between their actions and their beliefs. If we are going to criticise Christians forbelieving in something that doesn't exist, or any other religion for that matter, and therefore for having a bad grasp of reality- simply accepting their moral attitudes uncritically will not get us any closer to the truth of what standards people actually live by or could realistically hold or use. we have to be honest about what people "really" do and form moral judgements based on the evidence, not just what has become commonsense we've inherited from religious scripture.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I'd like Atheists to;

i) stop white washing their own history and read about the stuff that makes them uncomfortable so they have a better understanding of the truth.

I have as much in common with a Stalinist as a Hindu and a Christian have in common. On the one hand both atheists, on the other hand both theists. Should a Hindu be expected to justify the Crusades? If not, why not?

ii) start saying "atheists were violent, so atheism is not intrinsically superior to religion" and reject the double standard that implies

Errr...ok. Atheism is not intrinsically superior to theism. Are you sure you're accepting that not all atheists are anti-theists? It seems that your own politics colours your view on atheism in a similar fashion to how some Abrahamaics stop at monotheism when considering questions of God.

iii) come up with their own moral responses to these questions rather than simply "inherit" christian morality that "thou shall not kill".

Well...sure...atheists should come up with their own responses. That would in no sense represent an 'atheist dogma' though, and notions of atheists considering and responding as a group strikes me as musguided.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
In the UK we had IRA terrorism, and more recently we've had Islamist terrorism. We haven't had any terrorism motivated by atheism that I'm aware of.

I'm still not clear about the point of the thread.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It seems that your own politics colours your view on atheism in a similar fashion to how some Abrahamaics stop at monotheism when considering questions of God.

having slept on it, yeah, that's fair, it definetely is colouring my judgement. much of my criticism of the New Atheism can probably be found in some obscure marxist journal. though intrestingly, I'm not sure whether that still makes the definition of atheism as lack of belief any more neutral or objective.
 

Druac

Devout Atheist
Yes...in most cases the attribution is little more than BS...and no...it doesn't exist in any way that can be seen as a threat to society or even something worth spending much if any time and energy on.

+ Atheists couldn't organize themselves out of a wet paper bag. A "Real Atheist" is someone that doesn't believe in a super natural daddy in the sky that created us...that is the single qualification to be part of the 'club'.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
having slept on it, yeah, that's fair, it definetely is colouring my judgement. much of my criticism of the New Atheism can probably be found in some obscure marxist journal. though intrestingly, I'm not sure whether that still makes the definition of atheism as lack of belief any more neutral or objective.

To be honest, I think the discussion is completely a worthy one. I was just pointing out what I saw as some...I dunno...I was going to say bias, but that's not the right word. Instead, I'd say over-generalization.
Certain groups of atheists have an organised, dogmatic, even religious approach to their ideologies. But one thing I always do know is remind myself that no particular religion is representative of theists, and no particular atheist is representative of atheism. I certainly don't see New Atheists, or (in particular) American Atheists as representing me, any more than I represent them, although in some areas we no doubt agree.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
In the UK we had IRA terrorism, and more recently we've had Islamist terrorism. We haven't had any terrorism motivated by atheism that I'm aware of.

I'm still not clear about the point of the thread.

In simple terms, I agree with you, and it's always risky paraphrasing someone else's intent, but @Laika can shout me down if I misrepresent...

My reading of this is that he is not talking so much about terrorism that is pro-atheist in nature, per se, but instead terrorism that is informed by atheism, or otherwise influenced by atheism.
I'm not 100% sure where I stand on that, to be honest, but there is definitely some food for thought, and using the IRA as a test case makes more sense than most.

The IRA should be primarily viewed as a cultural and political movement, specifically republican in nature, rather than a religious movement, despite the obvious links to Catholicism. But the community provided by the church was influential, and there are some really good books showing the strange impact religion played on some IRA activists (which varied greatly from parish to parish, and activist to activist). Then there are more ceremonial links, and the way Catholicism was factored into the running of meetings, etc.
Then (as you're probably aware) there was a schism. Or, more accurately, there was a series of schisms. Without drilling into the causes of these too much here (although I can if you're insterested) the IRA morphed into a Marxist based organisation, focusing on class struggle. IN that light (and I am obviously simplifying) the IRA began to identify more Ireland as a whole, and saw Britain as the enemy moreso than the Protestants. As you can imagine, this was not a smooth transition, and the Provincial IRA became the more traditional counterpoint to the Official IRA (which shrank in size, power and activity). There are other important groups to understand, particularly INLA, but let's keep it to the Official IRA and the Provos for now.

A common base actually split into two distinct guerilla organisations, with one based on Marxism and one of traditional cultural/republican lines. And this DIRECTLY impacted on the nature and aim of their actions in a very clear and measureable way.
Now, is it a mistake to conflate atheism and Marxism? Yes. Absolutely. But if you took a cultural Catholic, an atheist, who is not a Marxist and dropped them into that environment, does their atheism play a role in decisions they make? I'd suggest yes. I mean, I'd tend to think of it as their lack of Catholic belief playing a role, but...meh...

So, in short (too late!) I don't agree that atheist terrorism is really a thing, but I can see a worthwhile discussion in how atheism factors in. Or lack of belief, if you like.
My initial thoughts are that a strong idealogical cause is required for one to become a terrorist (assuming not purely mercenary reasoning) but that this cause doesn't need to be religious, and in cases where religion is involved, it's almost always A factor, rather than THE factor.
In cases where atheists are conducting terrorist activities, I'd see it as a factor removed, but that factor may in fact be a mitigator rather than an accelerant (dependant on religious belief, context, etc) so the removal of religion shouldn't be seen as a positive, but instead simply a factor.
Again, using the IRA as a reference point, the impact of religiousity on any particular activist ran the full gamut from an enabler, a non-factor, through to a reason to renounce violence.


Anyways, @Laika can step in if I'm completely missing the point, but that's where I see a meaningful discussion here.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
To be honest, I think the discussion is completely a worthy one. I was just pointing out what I saw as some...I dunno...I was going to say bias, but that's not the right word. Instead, I'd say over-generalization.
Certain groups of atheists have an organised, dogmatic, even religious approach to their ideologies. But one thing I always do know is remind myself that no particular religion is representative of theists, and no particular atheist is representative of atheism. I certainly don't see New Atheists, or (in particular) American Atheists as representing me, any more than I represent them, although in some areas we no doubt agree.

I can't tell you how much of a relief it is to here someone say that. I'm banging my head against the wall on another thread on this same subject and this is driving me nuts. :D

Now, is it a mistake to conflate atheism and Marxism? Yes.

That is where I disagree.

It is not true of all forms of atheism (which are secular) but Marxism(-Leninism) is a totalitarian ideology. So it's specific brand of atheism is absolutely essential and necessary to it's motivation for political violence and terrorism. This is not true for all atheism. This is not true for all forms of Marxism. But it is true of this one specific brand (Marxism-Leninism) which is also the dominant one in the history of the 20th century. There is no seperation between their atheism and their marxism. They are united into a single worldview and their atheism feeds directly as a motivation into terrorism. Marxism-Leninism was a totalitarian ideology not a secular one. everything in that ideology was united and governed by a single set of philosophical principles where were materialist/atheist.
 
Last edited:

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Again, using the IRA as a reference point, the impact of religiousity on any particular activist ran the full gamut from an enabler, a non-factor, through to a reason to renounce violence.

Unlike Irish Republican terrorists, Islamist terrorists are willing to kill themselves along with their victims, in the belief that their God will approve and they will go to heaven as martyrs. That strikes me as a significant difference.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Unlike Irish Republican terrorists, Islamist terrorists are willing to kill themselves along with their victims, in the belief that their God will approve and they will go to heaven as martyrs. That strikes me as a significant difference.

Well...
1) Not all terrorists are created equal
2) Not all religions are created equal

I used the IRA as an example specifically because you mentioned them, and because the Official/Provisional IRA split was so relevant to the topic at hand.
I'm certainly not claiming anything about religious extremism as a whole. That would be a nonsense.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It is naive IMO to even attempt to think of "atheist terrorism" as if it were a thing.

I can only assume that such a mistake comes from presuming that atheism and theism must be directly comparable and working down from there.

Atheism is not a motivation, while theism is.

To use a classic phrase: that makes all the difference.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
That is where I disagree.

It is not true of all forms of atheism (which are secular) but Marxism(-Leninism) is a totalitarian ideology. So it's specific brand of atheism is absolutely essential and necessary to it's motivation for political violence and terrorism. This is not true for all atheism. This is not true for all forms of Marxism. But it is true of this one specific brand (Marxism-Leninism) which is also the dominant one in the history of the 20th century. There is no seperation between their atheism and their marxism. They are united into a single worldview and their atheism feeds directly as a motivation into terrorism. Marxism-Leninism was a totalitarian ideology not a secular one. everything in that ideology was united and governed by a single set of philosophical principles where were materialist/atheist.

I'm trying to work out if this is just a semantic difference between us, but I think perhaps not.
I'm reasonably well read on Marxist-Leninism (and Stalinism) but I won't claim to be an expert. Still, to my mind the counterpoint to atheism is theism. So to me, for better or worse, it's like someone saying there is no separation between the theism and republicanism of the IRA. Whether or not that's true, it's too broad a statement to have much utility.
Change that to 'no separation between the Irish Catholicism and republicanism of the IRA' and you're getting to a point worth debating.

I think you're running the risk of making atheism dogmatic, which is blatantly wrong. That some atheists have dogmatic views, and that their atheism is tied in with these is a given, in my opinion.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
It is naive IMO to even attempt to think of "atheist terrorism" as if it were a thing.

I can only assume that such a mistake comes from presuming that atheism and theism must be directly comparable and working down from there.

Atheism is not a motivation, while theism is.

To use a classic phrase: that makes all the difference.

Hey Luis,

Atheism in and of itself is not a motivation, but something like anti-theism could be.
I think the point being made is that atheism can inform a larger worldview.

My comparison (if clumsily made) is that theism doesn't really inform action, but is instead an umbrella term for a range of beliefs, and that those beliefs can inform action.
Personally, I still see that as a false conflation, but I'm just ignoring the semantics and dealing with the content, since I think there is a valid discussion point there.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Hey Luis,

Atheism in and of itself is not a motivation, but something like anti-theism could be.
I think the point being made is that atheism can inform a larger worldview.

Sure!

My comparison (if clumsily made) is that theism doesn't really inform action, but is instead an umbrella term for a range of beliefs, and that those beliefs can inform action.
Personally, I still see that as a false conflation, but I'm just ignoring the semantics and dealing with the content, since I think there is a valid discussion point there.
I wish I saw it.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I'm trying to work out if this is just a semantic difference between us, but I think perhaps not.
I'm reasonably well read on Marxist-Leninism (and Stalinism) but I won't claim to be an expert. Still, to my mind the counterpoint to atheism is theism. So to me, for better or worse, it's like someone saying there is no separation between the theism and republicanism of the IRA. Whether or not that's true, it's too broad a statement to have much utility.
Change that to 'no separation between the Irish Catholicism and republicanism of the IRA' and you're getting to a point worth debating.

I think you're running the risk of making atheism dogmatic, which is blatantly wrong. That some atheists have dogmatic views, and that their atheism is tied in with these is a given, in my opinion.

I'm sort of "burnt out" of discussing this from another thread.

The problem is that Marxism-Leninism was a Totalitarian worldview (I hate the term but it's the only one I've got). It had a unified set of principles known as Dialectical Materialism. The"materialist" bit was atheist and has been described by it's critics as dogmatic. Marxists would insist otherwise as materialism was derived from practice so make of it what you will. It wasn't simply a question of this philosophy was applied to politics, but to everything. including Art and Culture which is why the USSR had a relatively fixed definition of acceptable art as "Socialist Realism". It was the way that every decision is logically derived from these set of principles which means that there isn't a seperation. e.g. the application of dialectical materialism to Soviet Physics and cosmology to be more "atheist". It's difficult to prove is a debate simply because it was never considered an issue in Marxist philosophy- everything was interconnected and part of the worldview.

I've linked three sources below. The first one becamse THE definitive text on dialectical materialism (written by Stalin as he was codifying Marxism-Leninism into a single ideology in the 30's). The second and third one outline this in much more deatil and show just how aggressively Communists rejected the view that atheism was a seperate part of their beliefs. For them, there was no distinction. There are multiple forms of atheism and they work in different ways, so Communism behaves quite differently as a system of reasoning from ones we are familiar with in the West. the great difficulty in these debates is getting people to understand just how radically different communist-atheism is from it's western counter-parts.

"Dialectical materialism is the world outlook of the Marxist-Leninist party. It is called dialectical materialism because its approach to the phenomena of nature, its method of studying and apprehending them, is dialectical, while its interpretation of the phenomena of nature, its conception of these phenomena, its theory, is materialistic.

Historical materialism is the extension of the principles of dialectical materialism to the study of social life, an application of the principles of dialectical materialism to the phenomena of the life of society, to the study of society and of its history." (Stalin, 1938)

"Social-Democracy bases its whole world-outlook on scientific socialism, i. e., Marxism. The philosophical basis of Marxism, as Marx and Engels repeatedly declared, is dialectical materialism, which has fully taken over the historical traditions of eighteenth-century materialism in France and of Feuerbach (first half of the nineteenth century) in Germany—a materialism which is absolutely atheistic and positively hostile to all religion. Let us recall that the whole of Engels’s Anti-Dühring, which Marx read in manuscript, is an indictment of the materialist and atheist Dühring for not being a consistent materialist and for leaving loopholes for religion and religious philosophy. Let us recall that in his essay on Ludwig Feuerbach, Engels reproaches Feuerbach for combating religion not in order to destroy it, but in order to renovate it, to invent a new, “exalted” religion, and so forth. Religion is the opium of the people—this dictum by Marx is the corner-stone of the whole Marxist outlook on religion.[1] Marxism has always regarded all modern religions and churches, and each and every religious organisation, as instruments of bourgeois reaction that serve to defend exploitation and to befuddle the working class." (Lenin, 1909)

"'Religion is the opium of the people,' said Karl Marx. It is the task of the Communist Party to make this truth comprehensible to the widest possible circles of the labouring masses. It is the task of the party to impress firmly upon the minds of the workers, even upon the most backward, that religion has been in the past and still is today one of the most powerful means at the disposal of the oppressors for the maintenance of inequality, exploitation, and slavish obedience on the part of the toilers.

Many weak-kneed communists reason as follows: 'Religion does not prevent my being a communist. I believe both in God and in communism. My faith in God does not hinder me from fighting for the cause of the proletarian revolution.'


This train of thought is radically false. Religion and communism are incompatible, both theoretically and practically.


Every communist must regard social phenomena (the relationships between human beings, revolutions, wars, etc.) as processes which occur in accordance with definite laws. The laws of social development have been fully established by scientific communism on the basis of the theory of historical materialism which we owe to our great teachers Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. This theory explains that social development is not brought about by any kind of supernatural forces. Nay more. The same theory has demonstrated that the very idea of God and of supernatural powers arises at a definite stage in human history, and at another definite stage begins to disappear as a childish notion which finds no confirmation in practical life and in the struggle between man and nature. But it is profitable to the predatory class to maintain the ignorance of the people and to maintain the people's childish belief in miracles (the key to the riddle really lies in the exploiters' pockets), and this is why religious prejudices are so tenacious, and why they confuse the minds even of persons who are in other respects able." (ABC of Communism, Bukharin, 1920)
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I used the IRA as an example specifically because you mentioned them, and because the Official/Provisional IRA split was so relevant to the topic at hand. I'm certainly not claiming anything about religious extremism as a whole. That would be a nonsense.

Sure, I understood that. I think it's instructive though to compare examples of modern terrorism and understand the relative significance of theism and atheism as motivators.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Sure, I understood that. I think it's instructive though to compare examples of modern terrorism and understand the relative significance of theism and atheism as motivators.

'Relative significance of theism'?
Sorry, not sure what you mean. My best guess is that you're not talking about theism, per se, but particular theistic beliefs.
@Laika is talking about a specific form of atheistic belief. Sure, it goes beyond mere atheism, but Islamists arent 'just' theists.
 
Top