Ignatius A
Active Member
Isn't that a distinction without a difference? We all choose to believe or not to believe.
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Agnosticism
- Thread starter Eddi
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The claim was that agnostics were atheist. I gave myself as an example that NOT all agnostics are atheists.
Ignatius A
Active Member
If you choose to believe there is a God then by definition you can't be an agnostic can you. I once believed Santa existed. Then I became an agnostic in regards to Santa and now im an atheist toward santa. How does one say I don't think Santana can be proven or disproven but I choose to believe in him? I really am interested in that process.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
An agnostic is anyone who claim you cannot KNOW whether God exists or not. That includes agnostic theists.
First, I don't KNOW for SURE that there is a God. That makes me agnostic. God is a belief I have. Not knowledge. God can be neither proven nor disproven. That is a classic agnostic statement.
In the absence of any actual evidence one way or the other, what am I to do? Clearly I have to make some kind of choice, to either live my life as though God exists or to live it as though he does not. In such a case, I choose to go with my intuition.
Intuition is not the same as evidence. It works well enough that it increases our survival. But intuition is often wrong.
When I look at the awe of nature, I am really really moved. I contemplate the stars. I look up to the distant top of a sequoia tree. I give birth to a baby. And every fiber of my being shouts "God." For me, the design implies a designer. I INTUIT agency behind the universe, and I intuit it very strongly.
But I am simultaneously aware of just how often humans intuit agency when no agency is present.
Think of being out in the woods and a bush rustles. You think "wild animal!" and run away. Now let's say your intuition was incorrect, and it was just a branch falling. NO HARM DONE. But what about the flip? What if there were a rustling in the bushes, and you said to yourself, "Don't overreact, it's nothing" and it was in fact a wild beast? Well, you'd be toast.
So I have a very healthy respect for intuition. I just don't confuse it with evidence. If I had actual evidence that contradicted my intuition, I would go with the evidence. But I don't. So I feel free to let my intuition do its thing.
This is a form of what is called "Agnostic Theism."
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Although certainly both agnostic theists and agnostic atheists exist, there are also true middle of the road agnostics who have no desire to choose. My original post on this issue was simply to point out that even in such cases, a person is forced to choose how they act and live, to live as though there is a God, or to live as though there is not.
endlessvoid2018
agnostic atheist
Aye, I see you changed huh? You used to be a Panentheist. Perhaps everybody goes through this type of thing. Well, at least some people. I used to believe, or at least be heavily interested in the philosophies of Pantheism/Deism/Pantheism when I first discovered that I was agnostic. Basically, I considered myself agnostic, but I believed that if there was any kind of god, that this concept of them would be the most ideal to me. However, I later found that all rational and thought processes to me on those philosophies faded away, as they didn't really make much sense, even if slightly plausible compared to the invisible sky daddy of Christianity. Basically a do nothing god of various iesm type philosophies didn't make sense and I have no interest in them. I then started embracing the notion that I didn't believe in god(s), without actually outright claiming that there isn't one as I have no way of knowing, and I don't think we will ever know. So, basically since then, I've been agnostic atheist.
Personally, I think coming the agnostic conclusion is probably the smartest when leaving religion.
I have also noticed that people who are agnostic, well, some of them, are more sort of on a journey sometimes to discovering other things. People who are atheists, however, seem to be pretty firmly seated where they're at. I am kind of in between both, since I consider myself both agnostic and atheist. I also identify as a Humanist, and that's how I choose to identify usually.
Personally, I think coming the agnostic conclusion is probably the smartest when leaving religion.
I have also noticed that people who are agnostic, well, some of them, are more sort of on a journey sometimes to discovering other things. People who are atheists, however, seem to be pretty firmly seated where they're at. I am kind of in between both, since I consider myself both agnostic and atheist. I also identify as a Humanist, and that's how I choose to identify usually.
Sir Joseph
Member
Countering a previous comment, I think it's fair to categorize oneself as agnostic, thus claiming to either not know or not care about the existance of God. Numerous polls show this category increasing steadily each decade in America, though the polled term is more often identified as irreligious.
Being agnostoc or irreligious is consistent with our present culture of relativism that's developed over the past few decades. Thus, truth is seemingly based upon feelings rather than reality. With such a world view, how can you "know that morality is real" or "believe that natural law has imposed an obligation" on you Eddie?
You know, if God doesn't exist, you're left with evolutionary theory, chance processes, and no purpose or order to life. That leaves no basis for objective morality or a conscience for treating others ethically.
Agnosticism and atheism aren't mutually exclusive.
I don't think being an agnostic requires any particular way of life.
It is more an acceptance of one's own ignorance about God and deciding that any evidence offered about God is not sufficient to make a decision with. A point of becoming honest with yourself about what you can actually know.
Ignatius A
Active Member
So you're saying it's like, all pennies are coins but not all coins are pennies. Right? So rewrite that sentence using agnostic and atheist instead of pennies and coins.
No. Agnostics aren't a subset of atheists. They're separate categories that overlap.
Agnostics can be, but are not necessarily, atheists. Atheists can be, but are not necessarily, agnostics.
Ignatius A
Active Member
So like how squares and circles overlap.
Circles can be, but are not necessarily, squares. Squares can be, but are not necessarily, circles.
Ignatius A
Active Member
Seriously? You're confused? Putting your words into the sentence seems to have confused you. Ok.
Circles are as much like squares as agnostics are like atheists. Circles and squares are geometric shapes but aren't the same. Agnosticism and atheism are responses to the whether or not God exist but aren't the same.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Ignatius A
Active Member
If you want to claim an agnostic is a type of atheist or as more accurately described above, a weak/soft atheist then we agree. Nobody likes a wishy washy believer or in this case, non believer. Even scripture doesn't like a lukewarm Christian. "I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either hot or cold. As it is, since you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth." Rev 3:15-16
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Some agnostics are atheists and some are theists. An agnostic is simply someone who says we cannot KNOW that god exists or not. There is a lot of overlap between agnostics and atheists, but not all agnostics are atheists, and not all atheists are agnostics.
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with lukewarm believers.
Ignatius A
Active Member
So an agnostic THINKS God could exist and that you define as a "theist"
You don't huh? There's a lot you're not sure of which tells me how we got here. The point is God would rather you be against him if you can't be for him. I'm not sure if you're married or not but would you really want your spouse to "kind of like you", to be lukewarm in their affection for you? Really?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Like i said, an agnostic is anyone who says we cannot KNOW one way or another whether God exists. Some agnostics opt to live their lives as though God does not exist -- agnostic atheists. Other agnostics such as myself choose to live our lives as though God does exist, agnostic theists.
I think you've seriously misjudged the situation here. I'm trying to coax a coherent thought out of you, giving you some pretty serious benefit of the doubt that you even have a coherent thought to be coaxed out. You aren't in a position to give anyone else snark... not if you want to be taken seriously, anyhow.
No. Agnosticism isn't a response to the question of whether God exists.
Atheism is about a person's answer to one question ("how many gods do you believe in?") and agnosticism is about a related but separate question ("what's your approach for figuring out which gods should be believed in?").
Agnostic atheists are more common, but agnostics can be theists or atheists. Theists can be agnostic or not. Atheists can be agnostic or not.
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