A case of demonic possession

[NobodyYouKnow]

In what sense? Telepathic? Telekinetic? Clairvoyant?

I haven't quite figured that out yet. I just came to the realisation this was so, after researching why all these weird coincidences keep happening in my life, only to have the very first sentence of what I read, make mention of a book that I am currently reading.

I am done with attributing everything to 'coincidence'. I am fully done with it...denying what's going on...denying who I am.

It seems that the more I try and hide from it, the more I try to run away, the more the universe finds me and makes me 'pay for it'.

So, I am still trying to figure it out, but I guess 'Claircognizant' comes the closest at this stage.

 

[thau]

These cases weren't studied under close observation. A nurse and a caseworker imo don't have the training to see beyond what could be simple magic tricks or just tricks of the light. You can make it seem like you are levitating if you know how to do it. A child can look really creepy if they work at it and are taking cues from the people around them.

Translation (mine): This family decides to conjure up some fantastic scheme to fool authorities. So they start working on getting a 9 year old child to walk backwards up a wall to the top of the ceiling. A simple magic trick done with lights, apparently? In addition, in the Department of Child Services report filed by social worker Valerie Washington she documents the following: Medical staff testied that the youngest boy, 7, in their presence was “lifted and thrown into the wall with nobody touching him." Another good “trick” or more fabrications by other medical staff? Also, after taken to the hospital, the staff reported it took five men to hold the raging 7 year old down. Further embellishments or did the child practice super human strength?

These cases weren't studied under close observation. A nurse and a caseworker imo don't have the training to see beyond what could be simple magic tricks or just tricks of the light. You can make it seem like you are levitating if you know how to do it. A child can look really creepy if they work at it and are taking cues from the people around them.

Translation (mine): An Indiana social worker who is trained to deal with family issues, Valerie Washington, was either hallucinating or lying when she told authorities she witnessed this boy walk backwards up a wall to the ceiling.
A Registered Nurse named Willie Walker was also present in the room. His testimony replicates that of the social worker Valerie. He too was totally freaked out watching this boy walk backwards up to the ceiling. And now we have the testimony of two eye witnesses of professionals there for clinical reasons (not religious reasons and not for reasons to follow any instructions from the family) who both either

1. Hallucinated or were tricked by a magic act
2. Agreed to lie together for reasons no one can logically come up with.
3. Actually witnessed a demonic manifestation, something I would call supernatural.

To sum: for your theory to have any inkling of truth would require a fantastic set of circumstances and events that a family could conspire to pull off and fool multiple authorities including police, social workers, nurses, psychiatrists and other medical staff. And these are not simple magic tricks as you suggest. No, they are fantastic unimaginable illusions that some rag tag poor family in Indiana could somehow concoct and create a national sensation over it, without even one single authority present doubting its authenticity. In my personal opinion, this is hyper-implausible.

 

[Boyd]

My point is this is the way things typically go. Skeptics are interested in all the evidence and arguments they can muster on one side of the fence and intentionally try to get us to disregard the evidence and argumentation on the other side of the fence. That is why I said I am skeptical of Skeptics as they investigate with an agenda. I haven't read about Amityville in years and am not up on the details. This is not about one example you brought up. I'm making a general observation about Skeptics here; they are not open-minded investigators but only slanters of evidence to support an agenda against anything that smacks of God, the spiritual or the paranormal. That fact couldn't be more obvious to me.

That may be what some skeptics do, but not the majority. Skeptics, at a basis, look at an event and say, "I don't know about that, let me look into it."

I personally am a skeptic, and have led skeptic groups. I also believe in G-d. The last group I started is based in a UU church. So that is not my intention, but I get what you are saying, and I have seen skeptics like you mention.

I brought up the Amityville case because, for me, it is a clear example of a hoax; especially since it has been admitted that it was a hoax. It also resembles the case in question on this thread. The family was having financial problems, and were stuck in the house (which they needed a way out of). They brought in "paranormal" investigators, who really only confirmed what the family already thought. They have a lot of testimony, but when one digs into it, the testimony often is jumbled, changes, and includes pieces that are impossible (when I say impossible I'm more referring to events that even supernaturally, still wouldn't happen. In particular, this story included one of the individuals describing a kid, who while constantly holding their grandmothers hand, walked backwards up a wall, then up the ceiling, and then flipping behind them. The grandmother, if this happened, would have been injured, and quite seriously).

No doubt people, particularly in certain areas of the world, make false diagnoses of possession and children are hurt. That's a separate subject.

My interest for this discussion is if paranormal activity ever occurs in the strongest cases. In the strongest cases I believe they do based on the quality and quantity of reports.

Videos of paranormal activity abound on the internet but with the latest video technology skeptics can always claim fake.

Skeptics can always claim fake, and I'm personally against such. I'm open to the possibility of supernatural occurrences. However, my problem is that in the vast majority of cases I've seen (or participated in in one form or another), the people are simply falling victim to a scam. This can have serious effects from being bled dry of all wealth, to death.

So when I go into a discussion like this, I do expect a fair amount of evidence. This case, for me, simply doesn't show it. I see the family as either being delusional, or, more probable, being liars, and picking up on a national trend (the same thing happened after the Exorcist came out. Paranormal activity such as this skyrocketed). And there is a possible payout for such deception. The family can get out of their home. The "investigators" can get possible book deals (and even movie deals), and the notoriety can be quite high.

I would say in the strongest cases, I may agree with you though. I don't think it's an impossibility, and I've seen somethings that defy what I know to be true. So I am open. But I do need more than this case is giving.

 

[George-ananda]

It appears we're not as different as initially appeared.

That may be what some skeptics do, but not the majority. Skeptics, at a basis, look at an event and say, "I don't know about that, let me look into it."

I personally am a skeptic, and have led skeptic groups. I also believe in G-d. The last group I started is based in a UU church. So that is not my intention, but I get what you are saying, and I have seen skeptics like you mention.

I'm all for open-minded skeptical inquiry.

I brought up the Amityville case because, for me, it is a clear example of a hoax; especially since it has been admitted that it was a hoax.

Hmm, does everyone involved in this case claim it's a hoax? I don't think so.

It also resembles the case in question on this thread. The family was having financial problems, and were stuck in the house (which they needed a way out of). They brought in "paranormal" investigators, who really only confirmed what the family already thought. They have a lot of testimony, but when one digs into it, the testimony often is jumbled, changes, and includes pieces that are impossible (when I say impossible I'm more referring to events that even supernaturally, still wouldn't happen. In particular, this story included one of the individuals describing a kid, who while constantly holding their grandmothers hand, walked backwards up a wall, then up the ceiling, and then flipping behind them. The grandmother, if this happened, would have been injured, and quite seriously).

Now there is always frustration in being arm-chair investigators on cases like this. We have questions that we will never have answered. Yes, the part about holding hands with the grandma doesn't make sense to me. I want further discussion of this incident but I will probably never hear it such as 1) Did the writer of the synopsis do a good job on that description? 2) What do the principals say about the seeming impossibility of the claim? 3) If it's a hoax, why would they claim something that not believable? 4) etc. etc..

I will never have answers to question that an open-minded investigator should want to know

Skeptics can always claim fake, and I'm personally against such. I'm open to the possibility of supernatural occurrences. However, my problem is that in the vast majority of cases I've seen (or participated in in one form or another), the people are simply falling victim to a scam. This can have serious effects from being bled dry of all wealth, to death.

I'm good with what you say here.

So when I go into a discussion like this, I do expect a fair amount of evidence. This case, for me, simply doesn't show it. I see the family as either being delusional, or, more probable, being liars, and picking up on a national trend (the same thing happened after the Exorcist came out. Paranormal activity such as this skyrocketed). And there is a possible payout for such deception. The family can get out of their home. The "investigators" can get possible book deals (and even movie deals), and the notoriety can be quite high.

Certainly I'm not going to conclude anything definite about any one particular case particularly when I can't have answers and access to all the information. However from more of an overview position on the breadth of the paranormal, the quantity and quality of the evidence suggests strongly to me that things happen that require a drastic update to the purely materialist view of the world.

I would say in the strongest cases, I may agree with you though. I don't think it's an impossibility, and I've seen somethings that defy what I know to be true. So I am open. But I do need more than this case is giving.

Again my beliefs are not based on any 'one' case but from the width, depth, quality and quantity of all claims. A non-paranormal explanation to 100% of the cases is logically possible but not a reasonable position in my estimation. Plus I realize less than 1% of 1% of 1% of claims in the history of the human experience ever get to my ears.

 

[no-body]

Translation (mine): This family decides to conjure up some fantastic scheme to fool authorities. So they start working on getting a 9 year old child to walk backwards up a wall to the top of the ceiling. A simple magic trick done with lights, apparently? In addition, in the Department of Child Services report filed by social worker Valerie Washington she documents the following: Medical staff testied that the youngest boy, 7, in their presence was “lifted and thrown into the wall with nobody touching him." Another good “trick” or more fabrications by other medical staff? Also, after taken to the hospital, the staff reported it took five men to hold the raging 7 year old down. Further embellishments or did the child practice super human strength?


Translation (mine): An Indiana social worker who is trained to deal with family issues, Valerie Washington, was either hallucinating or lying when she told authorities she witnessed this boy walk backwards up a wall to the ceiling.
A Registered Nurse named Willie Walker was also present in the room. His testimony replicates that of the social worker Valerie. He too was totally freaked out watching this boy walk backwards up to the ceiling. And now we have the testimony of two eye witnesses of professionals there for clinical reasons (not religious reasons and not for reasons to follow any instructions from the family) who both either

1. Hallucinated or were tricked by a magic act
2. Agreed to lie together for reasons no one can logically come up with.
3. Actually witnessed a demonic manifestation, something I would call supernatural.

To sum: for your theory to have any inkling of truth would require a fantastic set of circumstances and events that a family could conspire to pull off and fool multiple authorities including police, social workers, nurses, psychiatrists and other medical staff. And these are not simple magic tricks as you suggest. No, they are fantastic unimaginable illusions that some rag tag poor family in Indiana could somehow concoct and create a national sensation over it, without even one single authority present doubting its authenticity. In my personal opinion, this is hyper-implausible.

I didn't say the family is in cahoots and doing a complicated bit, quite the opposite. The parent(s?) in the family are delusional or lying and the kids are picking up on it and playing to it. The kids probably haven't been trained to do any of this or realize they are doing it, they just have lived in this situation so long that they play off to people for attention and have figured out how to do such things. I've read of many similar cases (unfortunately none of them seem to be documented online, this isn't a very popular topic)

Acrobatics as has been suggested is very likely. "Being lifted and thrown against the wall" sounds like the kid used a common levitation trick and then threw himself against the wall. Couple that with the kids acting weird and sinister and there you go. Also having 5 men hold down a 7 year old boy isn't too unbelievable if the kid is hysterical enough and the men are being careful not to hurt him.

That is my hypothesize anyways, it would be interesting to send a trained and experienced magician and skeptic in there.

 

[George-ananda]

the kid used a common levitation trick and then threw himself against the wall.

Do tell us more.

 

[no-body]

Do tell us more.

Balducci levitation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[George-ananda]

Balducci levitation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The kid studied magic too? Basically it's just standing on the front part of one foot with the audience allowed to view from just the right angle?

As an open-minded skeptic myself, call me skeptical of the hard-core Skeptics.

 

[no-body]

The kid studied magic too? Basically it's just standing on the front part of one foot with the audience allowed to view from just the right angle?

As an open-minded skeptic myself, call me skeptical of the hard-core Skeptics.

No I'm not saying he studied magic and he was coached or anything just that he did a variation of the trick to people who where already freaked out by his actions, if you aren't paying attention it's easy to fool people.

Like I said I'd like to see a hardcore skeptic who was trained in magic go in there with cameras. You will get more results than a nurse who runs at the first sign of something seemingly freaky.

 

[no-body]

Here's a good article going over the psychology and trickery behind possesions: Exorcism! Driving Out the Nonsense - CSI

Witnesses no matter how learned and professional can be fooled, in fact it often times makes them more susceptible to being fooled when they are learned. People also underestimate what kids (and the uneducated poor the two types that seem to be targets of demonic possession, physics, etc the most) are capable of.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I posted this OP for two reasons:

1. it seriously baffled me, and
2. It happened not far from where I live.

I couldn't make heads or tails of it. Personally, I don't believe in demonic possession, for a variety of reasons, but no matter how I looked at this case, it seems that's really what it was. But the more I thought about it, something began to seem very odd to me. The original story as reported in the Indianapolis newspaper had links to various documents, including the notes from the CPS caseworker. My wife really focused on that part, and something just wasn't adding up. Then it hit me: the CPS caseworker, even though they supposedly witnessed various supernatural happenings, wrote in their report that the mother was to stop using religious reasons for the kids' behavior. Now, it seems to me that, had I witnessed some such event as a kid walking backward up a wall, I wouldn't really say that the mother didn't have a reason to use religious beliefs as a reason to excuse a child's bad behavior. But that's exactly what happened. So this seems like a case where no real demon possession took place, at least IMO.

 

[George-ananda]

Here's a good article going over the psychology and trickery behind possesions: Exorcism! Driving Out the Nonsense - CSI

Witnesses no matter how learned and professional can be fooled, in fact it often times makes them more susceptible to being fooled when they are learned. People also underestimate what kids (and the uneducated poor the two types that seem to be targets of demonic possession, physics, etc the most) are capable of.

This link is to the Skeptical Inquirer; an excellent example of media with an anti-paranormal agenda. Although there's probably some truth in the articles it will always slant the reader to their desired conclusion. In this particular article, it's way to eager to believe adults are always poor witnesses in these cases.

Just the title "Driving out the Nonsense" tells you how open-minded the discussion will be.

One must hear all sides and do some actual thinking to be informed.

 

[George-ananda]

I posted this OP for two reasons:

1. it seriously baffled me, and
2. It happened not far from where I live.

I couldn't make heads or tails of it. Personally, I don't believe in demonic possession, for a variety of reasons, but no matter how I looked at this case, it seems that's really what it was. But the more I thought about it, something began to seem very odd to me. The original story as reported in the Indianapolis newspaper had links to various documents, including the notes from the CPS caseworker. My wife really focused on that part, and something just wasn't adding up. Then it hit me: the CPS caseworker, even though they supposedly witnessed various supernatural happenings, wrote in their report that the mother was to stop using religious reasons for the kids' behavior. Now, it seems to me that, had I witnessed some such event as a kid walking backward up a wall, I wouldn't really say that the mother didn't have a reason to use religious beliefs as a reason to excuse a child's bad behavior. But that's exactly what happened. So this seems like a case where no real demon possession took place, at least IMO.

The fact is we do not have enough information to make either judgement in this particular case. What we are given is too scanty.

If RF would give me a budget I would go there, interview everyone, ask hard questions, see the actual locations, etc., etc.. and give a report. I won't hold my breath. Hey, you live close by.......

 

[no-body]

This link is to the Skeptical Inquirer; an excellent example of media with an anti-paranormal agenda. Although there's probably some truth in the articles it will always slant the reader to their desired conclusion. In this particular article, it's way to eager to believe adults are always poor witnesses in these cases.

Just the title "Driving out the Nonsense" tells you how open-minded the discussion will be.

One must hear all sides and do some actual thinking to be informed.

Well to be fair all witnesses in these cases are usually unreliable unless they know the trickery and psychology behind what they are looking at.

 

[satyaroop]

my feeling/guess is that demonic possession can occur but it is extremely rare

complete demonic possession occurs after the victim has been spiritually battered for a long period of time; the victim finally submits

I also wonder about protective or guardian beings and their role, while the human victim is being tormented, there's probably a battle going on between these protective beings and the evil ones

during initial stages of being tormented, no paranormal/supernatural phenomena is displayed, so if one complains of being harassed by invisible entities, the cause is often said to be mental illness when in reality it really could be that the persion is being tormented by entities
having said this, I think a lot of people who make such claims of being haunted just need fresh air, sunshine, exercise, a healthy lifestyle, should avoid ingesting supernatural material from books and movies
I guess only a real psychic can tell if a person is truly being bothered by evil entities or not

maybe humans are frequently manipulated in a sublte manner by beings both evil and good
I am reminded of a scene from the movie constantine(which I really liked)

John Constantine: Detective. What if I told you that God and the devil made a wager, a kind of standing bet for the souls of all mankind?

Angela Dodson: I'd tell you to stay on your meds.

John Constantine: Humor me. No direct contact with humans. That would be the rule. Just influence. See who would win.

Angela Dodson: Okay, I'm humoring you. Why?

John Constantine: Who knows. Maybe just for the fun of it. No telling.

Angela Dodson: Oh, so it's fun? It's fun when a man beats his wife to death? It's fun when a mother drowns her own baby? And you think the devil is responsible? People are evil, Mr. Constantine. People.

John Constantine: You're right. We're born capable of terrible things, but then sometimes something else comes along and gives us just the right nudge.

Angela Dodson: Well, this has been real educational, but... I don't believe in the devil.

John Constantine: You should. He believes in you.

I don't believe in a devil, but my guess/feeling is that demons do exist and everyone is susceptible to their attacks whatever faith they may belong to if any

I think a lot of people who claim to be demonologists or exorcists are in a state of delusion or are conmen, and have no idea how dangerous and serious is the task of battling and exorcising evil entities

just some thoughts, guesswork

 

[roger1440]

A movie is going to be made from the story

Priest signs film deals after well-publicized exorcisms of Latoya Ammons
"The Rev. Michael Maginot has signed a deal with Evergreen Media Holdings to bring “The exorcisms of Latoya Ammons” to the big screen...."
Priest signs film deals after well-publicized exorcisms of Latoya Ammons

 

[George-ananda]

Well to be fair all witnesses in these cases are usually unreliable unless they know the trickery and psychology behind what they are looking at.

I do hold respect that adults, like Catholic priests, consider all such things. I haven't really heard of many or any cases where the subject was known to have studied and learned illusionist techniques. They seem more like troubled beings as described in the above post by Satyaroop. There is no evidence that these subjects are any more knowledgeable in illusion than the average person.

 

[George-ananda]

my feeling/guess is that demonic possession can occur but it is extremely rare

complete demonic possession occurs after the victim has been spiritually battered for a long period of time; the victim finally submits

I also wonder about protective or guardian beings and their role, while the human victim is being tormented, there's probably a battle going on between these protective beings and the evil ones

during initial stages of being tormented, no paranormal/supernatural phenomena is displayed, so if one complains of being harassed by invisible entities, the cause is often said to be mental illness when in reality it really could be that the persion is being tormented by entities
having said this, I think a lot of people who make such claims of being haunted just need fresh air, sunshine, exercise, a healthy lifestyle, should avoid ingesting supernatural material from books and movies
I guess only a real psychic can tell if a person is truly being bothered by evil entities or not

maybe humans are frequently manipulated in a sublte manner by beings both evil and good
I am reminded of a scene from the movie constantine(which I really liked)

I don't believe in a devil, but my guess/feeling is that demons do exist and everyone is susceptible to their attacks whatever faith they may belong to if any

I think a lot of people who claim to be demonologists or exorcists are in a state of delusion or are conmen, and have no idea how dangerous and serious is the task of battling and exorcising evil entities

just some thoughts, guesswork

I vote best post on the thread (and that includes mine)

 

[no-body]

I do hold respect that adults, like Catholic priests, consider all such things. I haven't really heard of many or any cases where the subject was known to have studied and learned illusionist techniques. They seem more like troubled beings as described in the above post by Satyaroop. There is no evidence that these subjects are any more knowledgeable in illusion than the average person.

You don't need to be a magician or study a lifetime of illusions to pull off misdirection. Living in a house where the adult is acting like a kook all the time and you are a kid that has a lot of free time, it just naturally happens.

 

[George-ananda]

You don't need to be a magician or study a lifetime of illusions to pull off misdirection.

I am really not comfortable accepting that an 8 year-old can pull of illusions of misdirection to stun adults out of their wits in this case. That explanation just sounds like the only option a Skeptic has to ‘explain away’ the whole case. Couple that with the boatload of other highly unusual and seemingly paranormal events also associated with the case, and being an open-minded skeptic myself, have to believe the case probably contains elements not understood as normal.

Living in a house where the adult is acting like a kook all the time and you are a kid that has a lot of free time, it just naturally happens.

If it wasn’t for all the phenomena attested to by outside adults I would accept the hypothesis that she may just be a garden variety kook and dismiss the case. There is also the viable theory that her openness to spiritual things and powers is what caused caused her to attract malevolent lower entities and further her kookiness.