What is your Belief? A statistic for RF

[PearlSeeker]

He is being a prophet in saying that the ultimate reality cannot be understood. But I differ, let us search on, and who knows, not in my life time, but in the life-time of my descendants, a few decades or centuries, we will be closer to the ultimate reality than we are now.

Maybe. Who knows. But there are many aspects. Let's not miss the forest for the trees.

 

[Vinayaka]

How do you know? You make what Bahaollah said symbolical and what he said symbolically as reality as per the situation or your whim. This is what Bahaollah said about Heavenly maiden. For you, it should be a factual description:

"While engulfed in tribulations I heard a most wondrous, a most sweet voice, calling above My head. Turning My face, I beheld a Maiden — the embodiment of the remembrance of the name of My Lord — suspended in the air before Me. So rejoiced was she in her very soul that her countenance shone with the ornament of the good-pleasure of God, and her cheeks glowed with the brightness of the All-Merciful. Betwixt Earth and Heaven she was raising a call which captivated the hearts and minds of men. She was imparting to both My inward and outer being tidings which rejoiced My soul, and the souls of God's honored servants. Pointing with her finger unto My head, she addressed all who are in Heaven and all who are on Earth saying: "By God! This is the best beloved of the worlds, and yet ye comprehend not. This is the Beauty of God amongst you, and the power of His sovereignty within you, could ye but understand." Wikipedia - Siyah Chal.

That's quite creepy, actually.

 

[CG Didymus]

Manifestation of God, is like the Sun. He has innate knowledge. He is the Manifestation of God from the moment He comes to this world. From infancy He knows All things. He just proclaims His mission when it is the time.

Some of the people Baha'is believe to be manifestations did not act as if they had innate knowledge... Adam, Noah, Abraham, even Moses and Muhammad. And when did any of those first three proclaim anything about being anything resembling a manifestation? But, then again, some of us here, including me, question whether or not they were even real people and not just myths.

Now, since you seem to know quite a lot about Islam, what did Muhammad actually claim to be?

 

[CG Didymus]

We know from Abdulbaha's interpretation. He explained it. For example in the "Some Answered Questions"

Sure sounds like he saw something very real... and that he was not talking about a "symbolic" maiden.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Sure sounds like he saw something very real... and that he was not talking about a "symbolic" maiden.

Yes, that's how it sounds. But, Baha'u'llah came to a people, who were either Muslims or other Religions, so, those people understanding was that, Messengers are chosen by God through an Angel. Baha'u'llah spoke in a language those people were familiar with, to gradually guide them and teach them, that, there is no literal Angels, Jinns or Maidens.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Some of the people Baha'is believe to be manifestations did not act as if they had innate knowledge... Adam, Noah, Abraham, even Moses and Muhammad. And when did any of those first three proclaim anything about being anything resembling a manifestation? But, then again, some of us here, including me, question whether or not they were even real people and not just myths.

Now, since you seem to know quite a lot about Islam, what did Muhammad actually claim to be?

As Abdulbaha says, never the Message has not been as clear as Revelation of Baha'u'llah. Those Messengers of old times, did not reveal that, they have innate knowledge, as clearly as Baha'u'llah did.

As regards to Muhammad, there is a well-known Hadith. He said, "I was a hidden treasure. I wanted to be known, so, I created"

A Hidden Treasure - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Aupmanyav]

Now, since you seem to know quite a lot about Islam, what did Muhammad actually claim to be?

"The voice called after him, "O Muhammad, you are the messenger of God, and I am the angel Gabriel."
Allah said: "Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah, of all things, Knowing." Quran 33.40 (Surat Al-'Ahzab)
Muhammad did not have to say anything.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. that, there is no literal Angels, Jinns or Maidens.

Just an assertion, no evidence, just like for existence of Allah and his being a manifestation of the said Allah.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Those Messengers of old times, did not reveal that, they have innate knowledge, as clearly as Baha'u'llah did.

As regards to Muhammad, there is a well-known Hadith. He said, "I was a hidden treasure. I wanted to be known, so, I created"

A Hidden Treasure - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Why did not the messengers of old times, reveal what they knew? They were sent by Allah (as per your belief) to reveal his message. What did Allah do about their deficient performance? Will not Allah send them to hell? How will Bahaollah fare when what he said was unfair to women and LGBTQ?

As per Muslims, that is a weak hadith (A Hidden Treasure - Wikipedia).

It has different translations in English:

* I was a hidden treasure; I loved to be known. Hence I created the world so that I would be known.
* I was a hidden treasure, and I wished to be known, so I created a creation (mankind), then made Myself known to them, and they recognised Me.
* I was a Treasure unknown then I desired to be known so I created a creation to which I made Myself known; then they knew Me.

Did Muhammad create the world/mankind? Why did he wish to be known (ego?)?

 

[CG Didymus]

"The voice called after him, "O Muhammad, you are the messenger of God, and I am the angel Gabriel."
Allah said: "Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah, of all things, Knowing." Quran 33.40 (Surat Al-'Ahzab)
Muhammad did not have to say anything.

And here's Joseph Smith's version of the same kind of thing happening to him...

Three years after Joseph Smith’s First Vision, God sent the angel Moroni to instruct Joseph about restoring the gospel of Jesus Christ.​

​

While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.​

​

He had on a loose robe of most exquisite whiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly I had ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrist; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.​

​

Not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning. The room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately around his person. When I first looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left me.​

​

He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.​

​

And people choose to believe some of these and reject others. And some people reject all of them.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why did not the messengers of old times, reveal what they knew? They were sent by Allah (as per your belief) to reveal his message.

I mean, the Messengers spoke according to the level of Understanding of people of their time, and in accordance with the capacity of people.

What did Allah do about their deficient performance? Will not Allah send them to hell?

Messengers are Allah’s Manifestation. God manifested in the Messenger. It was God who did or said.

How will Bahaollah fare when what he said was unfair to women and LGBTQ?

Baha'u'llah did not treat anyone unfairly. He established Laws and orders.

As per Muslims, that is a weak hadith (A Hidden Treasure - Wikipedia).

It has different translations in English:

* I was a hidden treasure; I loved to be known. Hence I created the world so that I would be known.
* I was a hidden treasure, and I wished to be known, so I created a creation (mankind), then made Myself known to them, and they recognised Me.
* I was a Treasure unknown then I desired to be known so I created a creation to which I made Myself known; then they knew Me.

Did Muhammad create the world/mankind? Why did he wish to be known (ego?)?

When Muhammad said, "I was a hidden treasure...:, this is God, who said this. Muhammad was Manifestation of God. God spoke through Muhammad to people.
Muhammad had a body, like other human beings. But, His soul, is not like other human beings. It is a different soul. It is "Spirit of God"

 

[CG Didymus]

I mean, the Messengers spoke according to the level of Understanding of people of their time, and in accordance with the capacity of people.

Which people at which times? A lot of people in some parts of the world never heard messages of any of the manifestations linked to any of the major religions until fairly recently. And none of the messages until Baha'u'llah was ever going to work for all people the world over. And some of us have our doubts about his.

That is why I still think it is much more likely the people made up their own Gods and religions to suit their culture at that time and place.

 

[CG Didymus]

As Abdulbaha says, never the Message has not been as clear as Revelation of Baha'u'llah. Those Messengers of old times, did not reveal that, they have innate knowledge, as clearly as Baha'u'llah did.

Again... why do Baha'is abandon their threads with so many questions still be asked? Why do so many Baha'i threads have some kind of survey?

"Abdul Baha' says..." Doesn't mean much to non-Baha'is. If it wasn't "clear", why wasn't it? "Those messengers of old times"? That is still a Baha'i belief. Baha'is make Abraham and others into "manifestations". Judaism and Christianity don't. Nothing in the Bible indicates anything like Abraham having innate knowledge are being a manifestation of God. And... do Baha'is take any of those Bible stories in Genesis all that literally anyway?

What did Abraham "reveal"? The story "reveals" something about the God of Judaism. As did all the stories in Genesis and in the rest of the Bible. God put a special fruit tree in the garden with Adam and Eve and let a serpent tempt them. After they failed and ate the fruit, God cursed them. Then God flooded the whole world and was sorry he had created humans. Then he tested Abraham by telling him to kill his son as a sacrifice. What kind of God asks such a thing? Then God is worried that the Tower of Babel might reach up to heaven?

What does all this "reveal" about that God? For Baha'is, not much, because I know you don't take them literally. What it "reveal" for Jews? Or for Christians? Is way different than what it "reveals" to Baha'is.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Again... why do Baha'is abandon their threads with so many questions still be asked? Why do so many Baha'i threads have some kind of survey?

"Abdul Baha' says..." Doesn't mean much to non-Baha'is. If it wasn't "clear", why wasn't it? "Those messengers of old times"? That is still a Baha'i belief. Baha'is make Abraham and others into "manifestations". Judaism and Christianity don't. Nothing in the Bible indicates anything like Abraham having innate knowledge are being a manifestation of God. And... do Baha'is take any of those Bible stories in Genesis all that literally anyway?

What did Abraham "reveal"? The story "reveals" something about the God of Judaism. As did all the stories in Genesis and in the rest of the Bible. God put a special fruit tree in the garden with Adam and Eve and let a serpent tempt them. After they failed and ate the fruit, God cursed them. Then God flooded the whole world and was sorry he had created humans. Then he tested Abraham by telling him to kill his son as a sacrifice. What kind of God asks such a thing? Then God is worried that the Tower of Babel might reach up to heaven?

What does all this "reveal" about that God? For Baha'is, not much, because I know you don't take them literally. What it "reveal" for Jews? Or for Christians? Is way different than what it "reveals" to Baha'is.

The previous revelations such as Gospel or Torah, contains many metaphorical stories. The interpretation of these stories were not revealed explicitly until Baha'u'llah came.
My suggestion is to think about it this way. How did human beings learned languages? Have you thought about it? How did all these words and meanings came to existence in the world of humanity? From beginning human did not speak any words. Later, languages were gradually and slowly developed. Then methods of writings were developed. But, why am I all the sudden talk about this? Because, humanity learned "Expounding" from the Prophets in a gradual steps. For example, how human beings understood there is something called "forgiveness"? How did human beings learned there is something called "generosity"? These spiritual attributes were taught to humanity gradually by prophets in a progressive way. One reason, the Bible says, "in the beginning was the word, and the word was God", is for this truth, that, word, or speech is revelation of the power of God, who taught it to humanity in gradual steps. Now, it is a new Age, and with coming of Baha'u'llah, the mission is to teach a deeper spiritual meaning. It is to create a new level of spiritual attribute in human beings, through Expounding the older Revelations such as the Bible. One reason that, previously revealed scriptures were written in a symbolic language was that, when humanity is at the right step, Baha'u'llah comes and teaches its interpretation. And although that creates a lot of discussions and arguments between human beings, yet, in fact through these interactions and thinking, the new understanding will be developed by its due time. It has been all planned by God, from beginning.

 

[CG Didymus]

One reason that, previously revealed scriptures were written in a symbolic language was that, when humanity is at the right step, Baha'u'llah comes and teaches its interpretation.

Symbolic language? Or mythical stories, legends and/or embellished stories of actual events that told of Gods and how they interacted with people?

Were the Scriptures revealed to special people, the manifestations? Or did these stories come from people? All of Genesis sounds like it was written to talk about how the children of Israel came to be slaves in Egypt. But that their God had a plan for them. Everything in the Bible is written as if it was actual history. How much of it can you make "symbolic"? And why would you need to, if instead, you take it as mythical stories?

And again, if the true symbolic meanings weren't understood until the Baha'i Faith came along, then what did those stories "reveal"? Nothing real. They were all misunderstood for hundreds of years, because many of the followers took those stories as being literally true.

So, the truth about the Scriptures of the older religions is that they are not true. What kind of guidance is that? Because we know that people wrongly, took them as being God's inerrant truth.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Symbolic language? Or mythical stories, legends and/or embellished stories of actual events that told of Gods and how they interacted with people?

Were the Scriptures revealed to special people, the manifestations? Or did these stories come from people? All of Genesis sounds like it was written to talk about how the children of Israel came to be slaves in Egypt. But that their God had a plan for them. Everything in the Bible is written as if it was actual history. How much of it can you make "symbolic"? And why would you need to, if instead, you take it as mythical stories?

And again, if the true symbolic meanings weren't understood until the Baha'i Faith came along, then what did those stories "reveal"? Nothing real. They were all misunderstood for hundreds of years, because many of the followers took those stories as being literally true.

So, the truth about the Scriptures of the older religions is that they are not true. What kind of guidance is that? Because we know that people wrongly, took them as being God's inerrant truth.

The prophesies are usually written in symbolic language. You can see in the Bible, there are examples that a Prophet interpreted symbols. Two well-known examples are, the dreams that, Joseph interpreted, and also, the dragon with crowns and heads.

 

[CG Didymus]

The prophesies are usually written in symbolic language. You can see in the Bible, there are examples that a Prophet interpreted symbols. Two well-known examples are, the dreams that, Joseph interpreted, and also, the dragon with crowns and heads.

I'm fine with prophesies in the Bible having symbolic things in them. But I'm talking about things in the Bible that are written as if they really happened. Like this one from Exodus 14....

10 As Pharaoh approached, the Israelites looked up, and there were the Egyptians, marching after them. They were terrified and cried out to the Lord. 11 They said to Moses, “Was it because there were no graves in Egypt that you brought us to the desert to die? What have you done to us by bringing us out of Egypt? 12 Didn’t we say to you in Egypt, ‘Leave us alone; let us serve the Egyptians’? It would have been better for us to serve the Egyptians than to die in the desert!”​

​

13 Moses answered the people, “Do not be afraid. Stand firm and you will see the deliverance the Lord will bring you today. The Egyptians you see today you will never see again. 14 The Lord will fight for you; you need only to be still.”​

​

15 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Why are you crying out to me? Tell the Israelites to move on. 16 Raise your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea to divide the water so that the Israelites can go through the sea on dry ground.​

What does the Baha'i Faith teach about this... Did it really happen? Was it just a legend? Was it symbolic? What exactly?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Messengers are Allah’s Manifestation. God manifested in the Messenger. It was God who did or said.

Messengers have failed their mission, they have not changed the world. So if we take your line, it is God which has failed. Why believe in existence of such a unproven failed entity?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Messengers have failed their mission, they have not changed the world. So if we take your line, it is God which has failed. Why believe in existence of such a unproven failed entity?

You are assuming that the mission of Messengers was to make everyone a believer, but that's not the case.

 

[CG Didymus]

Messengers have failed their mission, they have not changed the world. So if we take your line, it is God which has failed. Why believe in existence of such a unproven failed entity?

I think there's a good chance you are right when you say that the God's and the manifestation/messengers are even real. Most all of the messengers could have been easily made up. But even if we pretend they were real, what was their mission?

I always complain about how the Baha'i Faith makes Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses all manifestations. Yet, Judaism nor Christianity makes them into anything like a manifestation. Moses would be the closest. But I don't know of anyone, other than Baha'is, that believe he was something greater than an ordinary man.

But he is a good example of failures. He had a hard time getting all the people to follow all the things that God supposedly ordered him to tell them. And then poor Moses... wasn't even allowed into the "promised" land. Then all those laws? They were never successful in getting people to follow them. And in Christianity they say that the law was not possible to follow. That it given to the people to show them that they couldn't follow it. It was meant to fail.

I wonder if all those Baha'i laws will do any better?

You are assuming that the mission of Messengers was to make everyone a believer, but that's not the case.

And is that an assumption on your part?