Muslims Celebrate US Recognition of Same-Sex Marriage

[metis]

I frankly have more respect for those who just admit their dislike of religion and become disbelievers (at least they're honest) than the pretence that is liberal religion. We can discus the nuances of Scripture, but there's no getting around the sinfulness of homosexual acts.

"Liberal religion" is not a "pretense" for those who believe that the scriptures have much or maybe even more of a human authorship than a divine one, and I don't really see any dishonesty with those who may believe that way.

House values are more based on what real estate agents often say "location, location, location", and theologians more use "interpretation, interpretation, interpretation", and part of this "interpretation" deals with the question of inerrancy especially.

To put it in another way, is the reference to homosexual acts being a sin a reflection of what God teaches or what humans back then believed? There really in no way to tell for sure, so it boils down to what one may believe, but beliefs do vary.

 

[metis]

As much as they may try, the fundamental moral stance of the Catholic faith cannot be 'updated' to suit the sentimentalities of modern political thought.They were true when Christ gave St Peter his keys, and they will be true so long as this world exists.

Actually much has been "updated" a great deal since Vatican II. The RCC is not nor ever has been a static entity.

 

[leibowde84]

That doesn't represent Islam. We as people are in no position to change what Islam stands for.

Where did anyone say anything about "changing what Islam stands for"? That has been done quite a bit since Muhammad's death.

 

[Shad]

My conscience before God is far more important than what political establishment dictates as 'decency'. It's not my place from stopping people from doing what they want, but no matter how much they whine they will never get my sanction for what I believe to be intrinsically immoral.

What end am I predicting exactly? The Bible explicitly states that the end is unknowable but by God alone. All I said that I take heed in Fatima, which simply affirms what the Scripture teaches. Human beings for the love of their own desires will do their utmost to escape the reality of God. But such an attempt will ultimately prove futile. Like it or not your heart is going to stop beating one day. And anyone who has yet to find peace with God is going to be in for a very rude shock.

That is fine with me, you can believe what you want. However when you start doomsaying you are attempting to convince others to stop what they are doing by threats and warnings within your belief system. So you are attempting to stop people by communicating ideas rather than force. You contradict yourself.

 

[Sabour]

Where did anyone say anything about "changing what Islam stands for"? That has been done quite a bit since Muhammad's death.

I believe this was implied. I just wanted to mention that in response.

 

[Sabour]

That is so sad.

That is doubly sad to hear. I'm so sorry.

What? That we are in no position to change what Islam stands for? That we can't change things according to our desires and make what is Haram be Hallal ? Actually that is the most beautiful thing about Islam. Of course, that is my opinion.

 

[LuisDantas]

What? That we are in no position to change what Islam stands for?

That you take Islam to stand for rejection of homosexuality in the first place... and that you may well be accurate in that belief, as well. That is why it is doubly sad.

That we can't change things according to our desires and make what is Haram be Hallal ? Actually that is the most beautiful thing about Islam. Of course, that is my opinion.

Can't you see that this is just wrong?

Quite frankly, I don't think you are even giving your doctrine, God and Quran much credit here. If they have any true worth they must be capable of accepting homosexuality as natural. If they are not, it must follow that they are not really very admirable at all.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

So reports The Daily Beast:

Novelist Nafisa Haji, an American living in Turkey, was celebrating. She told the Daily Beast: “I am thrilled at the news today, as a human being, as a woman, as a Muslim. My grandfather, who was a learned and pious Muslim, always said that marriage in Islam is merely a contract. And that Islam is a force for liberation and love. Those principles are evolutionary as well as revolutionary. They mean that the definition of everything social is subject to change. And this—the right of all Americans to form a contract based on love—is a change I celebrate.”

While this may constitute a small minority, it is still an interesting development, demonstrating the way in which religion can change and morph as a result of cross-cultural experiences, including immigration.

This is really heartbreaking.
To celebrate a sinful decision. They sell their religion for cheap worldly price.

 

[Sabour]

That you take Islam to stand for rejection of homosexuality in the first place... and that you may well be accurate in that belief, as well. That is why it is doubly sad.



Can't you see that this is just wrong?

Quite frankly, I don't think you are even giving your doctrine, God and Quran much credit here. If they have any true worth they must be capable of accepting homosexuality as natural. If they are not, it must follow that they are not really very admirable at all.

Homosexuality is not natural. Men or women cant reproduce on their own. Acting on homosexuality ends societies and destroys it. It is something that should be treated.

After all, Allah wants us to live a healthy life and have children and grow them in a healthy society where people are not after their desires.


And by the same logic in which people are accepting gay marriage and being open minded and supporters of freedom, I expect them too to accept my opinion about that.

Last but not least, as I said before, no one is in a position to say what Islam should be accepting and what it should not. If anyone wants to judge Islam, let him take a holistic view and see all the aspects and looking behind the reasons of why things are in that way.

 

[gsa]

Homosexuality is not natural. Men or women cant reproduce on their own. Acting on homosexuality ends societies and destroys it. It is something that should be treated.

After all, Allah wants us to live a healthy life and have children and grow them in a healthy society where people are not after their desires.


And by the same logic in which people are accepting gay marriage and being open minded and supporters of freedom, I expect them too to accept my opinion about that.

Last but not least, as I said before, no one is in a position to say what Islam should be accepting and what it should not. If anyone wants to judge Islam, let him take a holistic view and see all the aspects and looking behind the reasons of why things are in that way.

Nonreproductive sexuality is the norm. Most sex, heterosexual or otherwise, does not produce offspring, nor even carry the possibility of producing offspring. Yet somehow, humanity has endured.

We have no obligation to accept your opinion. We are bound to tolerate it, sure, but to respect it or accept it, no.

I am not under any illusions about Islam and its doctrines. But still, a minority can produce pleasant surprises, from time to time. See also Christianity and Judaism.

 

[LuisDantas]

Homosexuality is not natural. Men or women cant reproduce on their own. Acting on homosexuality ends societies and destroys it. It is something that should be treated.

Sorry, 0ne-answer, but that is not even close to acceptable.

There is just no possibilty whatsoever of getting me (or most people who actually know homosexuals and have respect for them as people) to agree with that.

Further still, that Muslims consistently fail to even consider that is a very strong strike against the validity of Islam as a religion.

After all, Allah wants us to live a healthy life and have children and grow them in a healthy society where people are not after their desires.

That statement sounds nice enough, until one notices how parts of it are vague and others authoritarian.

You are asking me to believe that your God is unfair, cruel and/or unwise. In a way it is a good thing that I don't believe in his existence in the first place.

And by the same logic in which people are accepting gay marriage and being open minded and supporters of freedom, I expect them too to accept my opinion about that.

I accept it as genuine. That is very different than seeing is as informed, harmless or undeserving of opposition.

For good or worse, such an oppinion must be opposed fiercely and defeated.

Last but not least, as I said before, no one is in a position to say what Islam should be accepting and what it should not. If anyone wants to judge Islam, let him take a holistic view and see all the aspects and looking behind the reasons of why things are in that way.

I just don't see why that would be true, or even how it could possibly be true. All religions must be judged quite rigorously. If anything, the literal monotheisms most of all.

 

[Sabour]

There is just no possibilty whatsoever of getting me (or most people who actually know homosexuals and have respect for them as people) to agree with that.

Just to be clear around here, I respect all people too including homosexuals. However that doesn't change my opinion on the act itself. I wouldn't mind interacting and being friends with them, as long as am not involved.

However, I still see it as wrong and as something that someone should avoid.

 

[LuisDantas]

Just to be clear around here, I respect all people too including homosexuals.

I am sure you are being sincere here. But ultimately I have to say that no, you do not realize or accept what respect truly means in this situation.

However that doesn't change my opinion on the act itself. I wouldn't mind interacting and being friends with them, as long as am not involved.

I take it that by not being involved you mean not participating in homosexual actions or, perhaps, sharing on homosexual preferences yourself?

However, I still see it as wrong and as something that someone should avoid.

And that is not morally justifiable, and therefore not religiously justifiable either. Simple as that really.

 

[Sabour]

I am sure you are being sincere here. But ultimately I have to say that no, you do not realize or accept what respect truly means in this situation.

That is your opinion based on your beliefs. Perhaps the problem is that we don't have the same view on things. For me respect in that case means not being rude to them; it doesn't mean I have to agree with their actions regarding that issue. After all they are not my enemies. Arguably, even enemies are respected sometimes ....

I take it that by not being involved you mean not participating in homosexual actions or, perhaps, sharing on homosexual preferences yourself?

Not even joking with me about it. It will not be well received.

And that is not morally justifiable, and therefore not religiously justifiable either. Simple as that really.

That is not an opinion I subscribe too. On the surface of the issue, it seems like so what if two people (males or females) loved each other and got married, aren't they humans. But actually the issue is a lot deeper and it has many implications on societies and families. I don't take things at face value.

 

[LuisDantas]

By the time you go quite that far, 0ne-answer, you have already crossed the line that says that whether people deserve respect is also a matter of opinion based on one's beliefs.

It may be technically true, but by that point it does not truly matter.

Particularly:

On the surface of the issue, it seems like so what if two people (males or females) loved each other and got married, aren't they humans. But actually the issue is a lot deeper and it has many implications on societies and families.I don't take things at face value.

I appreciate the sincerity, I truly do. It has a lot more moral merit than the duplicity and poor justification that some other people use to end up rejecting homosexuals nonetheless.

I can also appreciate that you realize (IMO correctly) that homosexuality does have implications for wider society. It is not a strictly private matter, nor should it be shoehorned into one either.

 

[Shad]

Homosexuality is not natural. Men or women cant reproduce on their own. Acting on homosexuality ends societies and destroys it. It is something that should be treated.

After all, Allah wants us to live a healthy life and have children and grow them in a healthy society where people are not after their desires.


And by the same logic in which people are accepting gay marriage and being open minded and supporters of freedom, I expect them too to accept my opinion about that.

Last but not least, as I said before, no one is in a position to say what Islam should be accepting and what it should not. If anyone wants to judge Islam, let him take a holistic view and see all the aspects and looking behind the reasons of why things are in that way.

The difference is I accept you have an opinion but do not force you to conform to mine. Islam expects people to conform to it's opinion and systems as do you. Your own comment shows this to be true.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Homosexuality is not natural. Men or women cant reproduce on their own.

No, it is natural. You are merely repeating delusions that many people of your religion have supported for quite a long time and continue to support.

Acting on homosexuality ends societies and destroys it. It is something that should be treated.

It shouldn't be "treated" because it is not a disorder, and neither the DSM nor the ICD lists it as such. Your religious beliefs don't trump established scientific facts.

After all, Allah wants us to live a healthy life and have children and grow them in a healthy society where people are not after their desires.

Which is precisely why I think it will be a great day when religious hatred fades away from the world. Nothing will be as conducive to a healthy society as that.

And by the same logic in which people are accepting gay marriage and being open minded and supporters of freedom, I expect them too to accept my opinion about that.

Your opinion can be tolerated, but it should be dismissed as the unscientific and bigoted rhetoric that it is.

Last but not least, as I said before, no one is in a position to say what Islam should be accepting and what it should not. If anyone wants to judge Islam, let him take a holistic view and see all the aspects and looking behind the reasons of why things are in that way.

People are in a position to say what Islam should and shouldn't accept based on science, logic, and reason. If Islam contains arbitrary, illogical, and inhumane laws, then any reasonable person has the right to dismiss them as such and say that Islam shouldn't accept them.

If anyone wants to judge Islam, I believe a good way for them to do so is to read the Qur'an. While I believe that most Muslims harbor a lot of bigotry and homophobia, I think that they are still better than their religion. That speaks volumes in and of itself, and it reflects a very sad image of the religion.

 

[Sabour]

The difference is I accept you have an opinion but do not force you to conform to mine. Islam expects people to conform to it's opinion and systems as do you. Your own comment shows this to be true.

I am not sure what you meant there by expectations, but nevertheless is it a problem of expectations?

I think that topic is trivial. Personally I don't judge something based on its expectations. I don't really care what others expect from me. Why would you care what Islam expects from you if you don't believe in it in the first place?

 

[Sabour]

No, it is natural. You are merely repeating delusions that many people of your religion have supported for quite a long time and continue to support.



It shouldn't be "treated" because it is not a disorder, and neither the DSM nor the ICD lists it as such. Your religious beliefs don't trump established scientific facts.



Which is precisely why I think it will be a great day when religious hatred fades away from the world. Nothing will be as conducive to a healthy society as that.



Your opinion can be tolerated, but it should be dismissed as the unscientific and bigoted rhetoric that it is.



People are in a position to say what Islam should and shouldn't accept based on science, logic, and reason. If Islam contains arbitrary, illogical, and inhumane laws, then any reasonable person has the right to dismiss them as such and say that Islam shouldn't accept them.

If anyone wants to judge Islam, I believe a good way for them to do so is to read the Qur'an. While I believe that most Muslims harbor a lot of bigotry and homophobia, I think that they are still better than their religion. That speaks volumes in and of itself, and it reflects a very sad image of the religion.

[/QUOTE]


That would be dismissed from right the first words. If it is natural, whey there is no reproduction?

My view of it will not change. It is not scientific evidence that I need to reject it, it is moral standards.

I repeat, I don't take things at face value. Same sex marriage is destructive for societies in every possible aspect. I am not here to say what people want to hear to please their desires of confirming to what society or other people think. I am here to present things the way I see them.

Call me a hater, call me whatever you want, I repeat that I don't have a problem dealing with homosexuals as any other person. However, never expect from me to agree with the actions because I see it as wrong for too many reasons.

 

[Shad]

I am not sure what you meant there by expectations, but nevertheless is it a problem of expectations?

If you expect someone to conform to your views then you do not respect their choice. You are against their views by your jargon about society, families, nature, etc.

I think that topic is trivial. Personally I don't judge something based on its expectations. I don't really care what others expect from me. Why would you care what Islam expects from you if you don't believe in it in the first place?

I am just pointing out you contradict yourself and do not understand your own religion.