Why I find Christianity dangerous to the human mind

[Bunyip]

I'm sure you are.
I'm sure you think you're being reasonable too, And I'm sure you think there most likely is no God.

But then, As I've been trying to say since the beginning, Your experiences aren't applicable to everyone nor are they applicable to the majority.

I'm sure you are.
I'm sure you think you're being reasonable too, And I'm sure you think there most likely is no God.

But then, As I've been trying to say since the beginning, Your experiences aren't applicable to everyone nor are they applicable to the majority.

That is a moot point Thana, can we go past it?

 

[steve293000]

Based on what I have seen and have experienced, Christianity's main goal is to wound their followers, then blame them for limping, and then offer an option of forgiveness for their weakness.

I would like to start with a quick look into Genesis and original sin. God created all the cosmos, the apple, the nature of Adam and Eve, even the serpent in the garden. He could have done anything to help stop the fall of man but chose not to. Then he decided to hold this against us in order to threaten us with eternal darkness. This is like the police charging targets of a serial killer for protection because it is the potential victim's fault.

Even if we look past original sin, Christianity relies on the idea that humanity is sinful and degraded, that God should not even love us but does anyways, and that human beings cannot stand on their own. There are supernatural forces out there we need defense from, not to mention sin that needs to be forgiven, and weak human beings cannot accomplish anything without God.

I had a friend who used to speak all the time about how he was a disgusting and unloveable abomination, that we all were, and that there was no reason for even God to love us. We are like weak and blind children who need a helping hand around every corner, yada yada yada. It was two years before I realized he was a pastor and didn't have clinical depression! It has been discussed here before about the psychological harm caused by Christianity, and I certainly think there is a lot to it. If a regular parent taught their kid that they are inherently evil and don't deserve love, child protective services would take the child away. Yet when it comes to the parent / child relationship of Christianity teaching otherwise is the wrong thing to do.

Yeah, that's an easy trap to fall into, even for Christians. I married into a family that I thought the same way as you did about your friend. But as I got to know the Lord I saw they were the one's with any wisdom, not me. TBH, life as God portrays it is sad, and it went against everything I was brought up to believe to face that sadness. And if you look at the popular media stars (the View and Oprah, come to mind) now, you can see a total rebellion against that mentality that life is sad and that God and heaven are the goals. And trust me, I tried to avoid that mentality. But in the end God had to bring me to seeing things through his eyes, which is not easy because we fight tooth and nail against seeing his view of things. But I'm glad that he did it, because it's reality, and in the end far more rewarding than living your life in a delusion, in a fantasy.

Sometimes Christians "push" it too hard, though. They think that being self deprecating or beating themselves up is somehow pleasing to God. The Catholic stereotype of wearing hair shirts and self flagellation is that mentality taken to an extreme. And it is wrong.

 

[Desert Snake]

Sometimes Christians "push" it too hard, though. They think that being self deprecating or beating themselves up is somehow pleasing to God. The Catholic stereotype of wearing hair shirts and self flagellation is that mentality taken to an extreme. And it is wrong.

I take it you aren't reading my threads. Seems like in general there is none of that.

 

[steve293000]

I think Christianity's "main goal", so to put it, is social control. Whatever goals it might have, it has strongly and consistently functioned through-out history as a means of controlling societies and deciding which people, classes, and families shall be in power.



I've known a few such people myself. That sort of behavior seems especially true these days of fundamentalists.

Has Christianity been used as you noted, to control the public and put in power those it wishes? Yes. The Catholic Church has been guilty of that to this day. That's why I've always had a healthy fear of organized religion. But still, Christ is the answer, and the Bible is God's word.

 

[steve293000]

I take it you aren't reading my threads. Seems like in general there is none of that.

What do you mean? I don't understand what your point is.

 

[Desert Snake]

What do you mean? I don't understand what your point is.

I'm saying I haven't noticed anything like that on the forums. Not even close.

 

[Sunstone]

But still, Christ is the answer, and the Bible is God's word.

Your rash and unwarranted embrace of absolute certainty in metaphysical matters has been duly noted.

 

[Glaurung]

Nevertheless, only a fool would insist that we have perfectly free will when a gun is stuck in our face, or if we were ever confronted with a choice between eternal torture or eternal bliss.

Have you ever met a person who just refuses to see the good in anything, who just drags everyone down to their level and is utterly filled with self-pity and self justification; refusing to take any responsibility for their life yet alone accept any help? This is basically the mindset of Hell ad infinitum.

Think of it not so much as torture but rather self-inflicted suffering. We understand God to be the the source of all lasting happiness, and since he is the source of all that is positive, if you choose an existence where you loose access to that source, then what is there left but pain, suffering and hatred?

I understand that Hell is a hard concept to accept (trust me I really do). But the more I think about it the more I understand its tragic necessity. The possibility of our perdition is consequence of our freedom, not a threat which God tacted on to us for giggles. Christian revelation makes clear that Hell is not something God 'wants'. It's what some of us want.

(edit: a slight rephrasing)

 

[Sunstone]

Have you ever meet a person who just refuses to see the good in anything, who just drags everyone down to their level and is utterly filled with self-pity and self justification; refusing to take any responsibility for their life yet alone accept any help? This is basically the mindset of Hell ad infinitum.

Think of it not so much as torture but rather self-inflicted suffering. We understand God to be the the source of all lasting happiness, and since he is the source of all that is positive, if you choose an existence where you loose access to that source, then what is there left but pain, suffering and hatred?

I understand that Hell is a hard concept to accept (trust me I really do). But the more I think about it the more I understand its tragic necessity. The possibility of our perdition is consequence of our freedom, not a threat which God tacted on to us for giggles. Christian revelation makes clear that Hell is not something God 'wants'. It's what some of us want.

(edit: a slight rephrasing)

I find it unlikely that a deity, as defined, simply could not create a reality in which hell did not exist. As for the notion hell must exist for free will to exist, it is a huge, largely indefensible assumption that we do indeed have free will. The notion is deeply problematic in light of the sciences, for one thing, and equally problematic in light of a logical and semantically sound analysis, for another.

 

[Glaurung]

I find it unlikely that a deity, as defined, simply could not create a reality in which hell did not exist. As for the notion hell must exist for free will to exist, it is a huge, largely indefensible assumption that we do indeed have free will. The notion is deeply problematic in light of the sciences, for one thing, and equally problematic in light of a logical and semantically sound analysis, for another.

I'm afraid I disagree with nearly every point. This won't go anywhere further, so I'll just have to metaphorically finish my drink, shake your hand, put on my hat and thank you for the civil conversation.

 

[Sunstone]

I'm afraid I disagree with nearly every point. This won't go anywhere further, so I'll just have to metaphorically finish my drink, shake your hand, put on my hat and thank you for the civil conversation.

Not a problem. I agree we've reached an impasse. Thank you for sharing your opinions, even though we cannot reach agreement.

 

[Augustus]

I would like to start with a quick look into Genesis and original sin. God created all the cosmos, the apple, the nature of Adam and Eve, even the serpent in the garden. He could have done anything to help stop the fall of man but chose not to...
Even if we look past original sin, Christianity relies on the idea that humanity is sinful and degraded, that God should not even love us but does anyways, and that human beings cannot stand on their own. There are supernatural forces out there we need defense from, not to mention sin that needs to be forgiven, and weak human beings cannot accomplish anything without God.

Treat it as an allegory and it is pretty accurate.

Knowledge may reveal an unpleasant truth which once learned cannot be forgotten. Humanity is flawed and cannot be perfected. There is no possibility of a worldly utopia, accept this and get on with your life.

 

[Windwalker]

Have you ever met a person who just refuses to see the good in anything, who just drags everyone down to their level and is utterly filled with self-pity and self justification; refusing to take any responsibility for their life yet alone accept any help? This is basically the mindset of Hell

You do realize that for the majority of individuals alive those that do this are broken individuals? I think to say they are wilfully choosing to be miserable is a gross misunderstanding of the sorts of pathologies that happened along the way in their normal development, such as having a parent they feared rather than felt safe and nurtured around. To simply blame those who are sick for "choosing" to be sick without addressing the illnesses or causes for them itself, is to me more blameworthy than those who are broken in the first place.

In other words, it's like blaming someone for having the flu on choosing to serve Satan. This is not a helpful understanding to have, and does nothing to heal anyone. Hence, the notion of hell being a "choice" is hugely overstated and largely incorrect. Even aside from normal "broken" people, those who are true sociopaths, which are rare in the extreme, are not there by their choice. It too is an illness, and a God who wheels down the sick from their hospital beds to the furnace room to dispose of them because they are ill is hugely lacking in compassion and Wisdom, don't you think?

I will say, I respect your approach to your take on this doctrine, but as I've just pointed out it has some real problems if you look at it from a "God's-eye view". From a God's-eye view, there is no judgment of others based on human ideals and standards. There is only Compassion.

Think of it not so much as torture but rather self-inflicted suffering.

I will say this much, people living in self-contraction is living in hell. The path of all the world's religions is to teach in one form or another to end this suffering. Now, I'm not referring here to those who are broken as I was speaking of above, but the average person who cannot see beyond the worlds of their own creations to enjoy that Liberty of soul and spirit in this life. That describes 98.8% of people alive, to put some sort of figure to that. But that too is a growth thing, and that there is choice involved I would agree, but its a choice based on fear of the unknown, fear of letting go, and a fear of death itself. Releasing oneself wholly into God, or into Freedom, is a death experience, and most, not without blame, choose to avoid such a traumatic, life-ending experience!

So, for me, this "hell" is essentially this life here, lived in self-contraction. We suffer because we don't let go. We suffer because we cling to what we think brings us happiness. This is taught by Christianity, by Buddhism, by Hinduism, and so forth, in one language or another. It's the core teaching of them all, when you see past the diversity of symbol sets.

We understand God to be the the source of all lasting happiness, and since he is the source of all that is positive, if you choose an existence where you loose access to that source, then what is there left but pain, suffering and hatred?

Hence, 99.8% of people live in hell. Hell is not some place or time in the future, just as eternity is not a future event but the ever-present now. So one is either in heaven or in hell right now, in each moment. We are either living in Freedom or in contraction. Simply saying you believe some God will "save" you when you die, is a meager substitute for the actual realization of that Liberty. And in fact, a religious belief can in fact be the "near-enemy" of "salvation" itself, because it masquerades itself as that, while simply being yet another distraction. It says "all will be well", while doing nothing to correct the issue today, and realizing that Release today.

I understand that Hell is a hard concept to accept (trust me I really do).

It is when someone takes it as a literal place at a literal time, rather than a symbolic expression of lived realities. I would say in my experience, the most ardent and judgmental religious (not you, to be clear), are those who I see as burning in that hell right now. They are deeply conflicted, gnashing their teeth and judging others to avoid self-reflection, hiding behind God to hide from themselves. That is the worst form of "serving Satan" there is, to continue the metaphor. It is better to know you are broken, than to believe you are not and hide from yourself and others by being "righteous". That's what Jesus was all about exposing, by the way.

Now, I'll be interested in hearing your thoughts to these considerations I've presented for you.

 

[Looncall]

I think Christianity's "main goal", so to put it, is social control. Whatever goals it might have, it has strongly and consistently functioned through-out history as a means of controlling societies and deciding which people, classes, and families shall be in power.



I've known a few such people myself. That sort of behavior seems especially true these days of fundamentalists.

Religion does look like a scam devised to provide power and a living for clerics doesn't it? The really bizarre thing is that some of its perpetrators are victims themselves: rather like a chain letter.

That anyone can accept the "we're all rotten" guff and stay sane amazes me.

 

[Iti oj]

I'm glad you started this off by letting everyone know that this is all just anecdotal



He could have done anything, By defintion of Him being omnipotent and omniscient.
He could have never made us in the first place, Or made us completely without free will. But He gave us choice, And that is why right now you're capable of blaming Him for it.



We are weak, Are we not? Can you heal the sick, raise the dead? Give us an afterlife or none at all?
Can you forgive everyone or love everyone or never hurt anyone? Can you resist all your fleshly desires or not?
Every time you were tempted to do something you knew was wrong, Were you able to resist, Every single time?



Yada yada yada? Are you even taking this seriously or is this issue just a cover for you to mock and condescend?

Do you have anything useful to add or are you just trolling. These are actual points being made. I guess since you haven't refuted them that means you can't because they are true.

 

[Iti oj]

If the op.was describing a relationship between two people it would be called abusive.

 

[1137]

@Thana , I'm putting you on ignore based on overwhelming empirical evidence that it's the proper course. I encourage my friends to do the same. Just a heads up.

 

[1137]

Why do you think God owes you the prevention of the consequences of your own choices? That defeats the point of creating beings with moral agency.

We may have been given choice but choice is pointless without reasoning. Sure we could choose between eating and not eating from the tree, but before doing so we had no ability to reason about the consequences.

Not to mention if my kid is about to stick their arm in a woodchipper, and I see this, I should probably so something.

And we certainly find the world of humanity filled with moral degradation. Is it really misanthropic to acknowledge that there is a side to humanity that's very ugly, and that there's a little bit of that ugliness inside every one of us? I do not assert that humans on the whole are irredeemably corrupt and evil. In fact, quite the opposite. But we must acknowledge the reality of human immorality from the trivial to the horrific.

It depends what your morals are. Christianity demonizes completely natural and non-harmful acts therefore making the world more sinful. Human immorality can reach disturbing heights but it is not simply based on our nature, it is based on environment as well, and possibly a lot more.

It's important to recognise our relative insignificance, helplessness, and the fact that God doesn't owe us anything. However, developing a neurotic self-hatred and refusing to see the good in people and the world is contrary to Christian principles. In fact it's arguably sinful. Christianity is a message of hope, that there is an ultimate good in this world and that good loves you and has a plan for your eternal happiness if you choose to accept it.

Or you could recognize your uniqueness and the miracle like odds of you even existing, but Christianity strips that too.

 

[Iti oj]

Or you could recognize your uniqueness and the miracle like odds of you even existing, but Christianity strips that too.

Dawkins unweaving the rainbow covers that well.

 

[Etritonakin]

, ...................Christianity relies on the idea that humanity is sinful and degraded, that God should not even love us but does anyways, and that human beings cannot stand on their own. There are supernatural forces out there we need defense from, not to mention sin that needs to be forgiven, and weak human beings cannot accomplish anything without God.
..........

Unfortunately, that is true of some things which are called "Christianity" -but not true of Christ or how he would have us see ourselves. It is a very twisted view of scripture -and quite the opposite of God's intent -which is that we eventually become strong enough to stand on our own as gods -the children of God -independently choosing to do that which is right so we need not be micromanaged. God does not coddle us -he shows us reality and tells us to stand on our own. He set before us life and death -and let us learn for ourselves -though he did not utterly give us over to ourselves. He will turn all back toward what is right -but we have to do the work.

He tells us we are gods and expects it of us.

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me

That is not a God that wants us to see ourselves as weak -but tells us that we had better be strong.

Are we to complain that he is over-protective -or that he is neglectful? Cruel? He does what is necessary to accomplish his purpose -and it will be of infinite benefit to us.

If a parent tells you not to stick your hand in dog doo -then your "friend" who is a bad influence tells you it's ok to stick your hand in dog doo -and you stick your hand in dog doo.....
you eventually learn to listen to your parent and not your "friend".

If your parent invited the "friend" over, it might make things different -depending on motive, etc. -but lessons learned with responsible oversight are better than children simply being left to themselves.
Perhaps the intent was good will toward both their child and the bad influence. The bad influence wasn't born that way (neither was the serpent, by the way -he chose to rebel).

Of course, the lessons we learn on earth are far more unpleasant than dog doo -but we have to learn to do right even in the presence of ones far more sinister than that "friend" (whether God exists or not -but especially...) if we are going to be strong enough to live forever without possibility of eternal chaos and ruin.

Parents are to be making good humans -so I am not saying that their decisions should be as harsh as God's decisions -just as vengeance is God's because it is his place, and that God can kill and be guiltless because he is able to resurrect, etc.... (and police can use electronic devices while driving even though we can not -because it is [should be] for the greater good -same principle).
There is enough evil in the world due to God's decision to allow others to make their own decisions, that parents should definitely shield their children from it -keep them from making major mistakes -allowing minor mistakes for the sake of experience, and teaching reasoning before acting, etc. They will have enough troubles when on their own -and parents should prepare them to make good decisions, but not shelter them so much that they can not stand on their own.

God is making gods -he is reproducing himself. The children of God need to be able to stand on their own forever. That requires more extreme measures -just as creating anything requires forces and pressures -some more than others. God gave instructions to the angels -then man -and allowed them to choose to obey or not. We would complain if we were forced, anyway. So, we now make our decisions and affect each other -and will eventually learn to do so in a positive way.

God definitely allowed and capitalizes on the interrelationship between man and the sinning angels toward that end.

It is true, however, that "religion" is a good hiding place for all sorts of evil thoughts and deeds -but that is true of anything which affects or holds sway over our basic decision-making processes -or which is affected by them.
Technically, your friend was affecting "Christianity" adversely -though it is possible that someone with false or harmful ideas who associated themselves with "Christianity" promoted his way of thinking -and in that way what is called "Christianity" can and does often become harmful.
That has nothing to do with God or Christ -except that they allowed even that.
Things associated with the name of Christ -things called "Christianity" -have been responsible for some of the greatest evils in the world -but men would have found other excuses if Christ's name had never been heard.