Why I find Christianity dangerous to the human mind

[Bunyip]

You literally just said it's true for most Catholics. You didn't even have the decency to say some Catholics, No you had to say most.
I mean come on mate, Let's not play games here.

Yes, I said most. Having been raised in a largely Catholic community and having lived in one for roughly 48 years. It was a position drawn from nearly half a century of being a Catholic, being educated by Catholics and having studied deeply Catholic history and theology in my experience it accurately reflects what most Catholic kids are taught.

Is there an element of what i said that you believe is NOT routinely taught to Catholic kids?

As to decency, no offence - but I am clearly behaving in a more polite fashion than you are. Why not let's just back up a bit and chill out? I think you are just great, and have no bone to pick here.

 

[Thana]

Yes, I said most. Having been raised in a largely Catholic community and having lived in one for roughly 48 years. It was a position drawn from nearly half a century of being a Catholic, being educated by Catholics and having studied deeply Catholic history and theology in my experience it accurately reflects what most Catholic kids are taught.

Is there an element of what i said that you believe is NOT routinely taught to Catholic kids?

As to decency, no offence - but I am clearly behaving in a more polite fashion than you are. Why not let's just back up a bit and chill out? I think you are just great, and have no bone to pick here.

Well I don't recall being impolite but, If you've taken offense then I apologize.

But again, Your anecdotes really aren't helpful when you're trying to talk about a majority.
I'm sure you have a lot of experience but you'll never have enough to be considered a valid example. That's just common sense.
For example, Perhaps all those Catholics you've met have all been great lovers of grapefruit. Would you then assert that most Catholics like grapefruit just because the ones you know do?

 

[Sunstone]

Well I don't recall being impolite but, If you've taken offense then I apologize.

But again, Your anecdotes really aren't helpful when you're trying to talk about a majority.
I'm sure you have a lot of experience but you'll never have enough to be considered a valid example. That's just common sense.
For example, Perhaps all those Catholics you've met have all been great lovers of grapefruit. Would you then assert that most Catholics like grapefruit just because the ones you know do?

You've never read published Catholic teachings, have you.

 

[Bunyip]

Well I don't recall being impolite but, If you've taken offense then I apologize.

Ok, just a heads up. Inferring that a person has no decency is generally considered impolite.

But again, Your anecdotes really aren't helpful when you're trying to talk about a majority.
I'm sure you have a lot of experience but you'll never have enough to be considered a valid example. That's just common sense.

I also said that I had nearly half a century of experience of Catholics. I went to four Catholic schools in two continents. Where is your experience coming from that it so utterly invalidates mine?

For example, Perhaps all those Catholics you've met have all been great lovers of grapefruit. Would you then assert that most Catholics like grapefruit just because the ones you know do?

Well yes, that is basic logic. If all ducks I have seen had webbed feet, I would happily assert that ducks have webbed feet. And most of the time such deductions work perfectly.

I ask again which element of my examples of what Catholic kids are taught are you taking issue with? Please at least identify it.

 

[Bunyip]

You've never read published Catholic teachings, have you.

Apparently not. Nor has she worked in the Catholic education system as I have, I would guess.

 

[Sunstone]

Based on what I have seen and have experienced, Christianity's main goal is to wound their followers, then blame them for limping, and then offer an option of forgiveness for their weakness.

I think Christianity's "main goal", so to put it, is social control. Whatever goals it might have, it has strongly and consistently functioned through-out history as a means of controlling societies and deciding which people, classes, and families shall be in power.

I had a friend who used to speak all the time about how he was a disgusting and unloveable abomination, that we all were, and that there was no reason for even God to love us. We are like weak and blind children who need a helping hand around every corner, yada yada yada. It was two years before I realized he was a pastor and didn't have clinical depression!

I've known a few such people myself. That sort of behavior seems especially true these days of fundamentalists.

 

[Thana]

Ok, just a heads up. Inferring that a person has no decency is generally considered impolite. I also said that I had nearly half a century of experience of Catholics. I went to four Catholic schools in two continents. Where is your experience coming from that it so utterly invalidates mine?
Well yes, that is basic logic. If all ducks I have seen had webbed feet, I would happily assert that ducks have webbed feet. And most of the time such deductions work perfectly.

I ask again which element of my examples of what Catholic kids are taught are you taking issue with? Please at least identify it.

Darling, please just stop and listen for 2 seconds.
I'm not asserting that I have more experience than you, I'm asserting that you are no authority on Catholicism just like I am no authority on Protestantism and Richard Dawkins isn't the authority on Atheism.
There is a reason that scientists use polls to gather information on masses, Because one person is not enough for a comprehensive and accurate understanding.

My experience with Catholics and Catholicism has been vastly different, So who is right? Which experiences are more accurate a portrayal, Yours or mine? And how do we determine this?

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

If a regular parent taught their kid that they are inherently evil and don't deserve love, child protective services would take the child away. Yet when it comes to the parent / child relationship of Christianity teaching otherwise is the wrong thing to do.

That is simply reality. The body can produce a 100 or so drugs, all with diverse useful function, but some of them can be manipulated so that you become enslaved and a drug addict. People are generally very sinful, and only slightly doing things right, then God provides bountiful happiness. You can see in their eyes that those who do not believe are usually under drugs 24/7.

 

[Bunyip]

Darling, please just stop and listen for 2 seconds.
I'm not asserting that I have more experience than you, I'm asserting that you are no authority on Catholicism just like I am no authority on Protestantism and Richard Dawkins isn't the authority on Atheism.

Ok. And if you see it that way, no debate here with anybody is worth participating in - so why are you here? I am not claiming to be an authority - you know that.

There is a reason that scientists use polls to gather information on masses, Because one person is not enough for a comprehensive and accurate understanding.

My experience with Catholics and Catholicism has been vastly different, So who is right? Which experiences are more accurate a portrayal, Yours or mine?

Clearly mine. You are yet to identify which example you find problematic. If you could do so, you would have done so without the theatrics.

 

[Sunstone]

Which experiences are more accurate a portrayal, Yours or mine?

An accurate answer to that question would most likely need to mention Bunyip's superior standards of intellectual honesty. That is, he seems altogether more reliable and trustworthy when describing his experiences, and consequently, it would be easier to determine whether his experiences were universally applicable.

 

[Bunyip]

That is simply reality. The body can produce a 100 or so drugs, all with diverse useful function, but some of them can be manipulated so that you become enslaved and a drug addict. People are generally very sinful, and only slightly doing things right, then God provides bountiful happiness. You can see in their eyes that those who do not believe are usually under drugs 24/7.

That is the sort of comment that makes believers look bad buddy, I would rethink if I were you.

 

[Thana]

Ok. And if you see it that way, no debate here with anybody is worth participating in - so why are you here? Clearly mine. You are yet to identify which example you find problematic. If you could do so, you would have done so without the theatrics.

In what planet is that true? We're here to debate what we believe and to learn about what we and others believe, That doesn't mean we're experts on our beliefs and know everything there is to know.

And what I find problematic is that you think your examples are applicable to most if not all Catholics. And I believe I've mentioned this more than once.

 

[Glaurung]

I would like to start with a quick look into Genesis and original sin. God created all the cosmos, the apple, the nature of Adam and Eve, even the serpent in the garden. He could have done anything to help stop the fall of man but chose not to.

Why do you think God owes you the prevention of the consequences of your own choices? That defeats the point of creating beings with moral agency.

Even if we look past original sin, Christianity relies on the idea that humanity is sinful and degraded.

And we certainly find the world of humanity filled with moral degradation. Is it really misanthropic to acknowledge that there is a side to humanity that's very ugly, and that there's a little bit of that ugliness inside every one of us? I do not assert that humans on the whole are irredeemably corrupt and evil. In fact, quite the opposite. But we must acknowledge the reality of human immorality from the trivial to the horrific.

I had a friend who used to speak all the time about how he was a disgusting and unloveable abomination, that we all were, and that there was no reason for even God to love us

It's important to recognise our relative insignificance, helplessness, and the fact that God doesn't owe us anything. However, developing a neurotic self-hatred and refusing to see the good in people and the world is contrary to Christian principles. In fact it's arguably sinful. Christianity is a message of hope, that there is an ultimate good in this world and that good loves you and has a plan for your eternal happiness if you choose to accept it.

The message of Christ isn't about having good fuzzies. Nothing so trite. It's a challenge to be the best you can be.

(edit: a few typos)

 

[Bunyip]

In what planet is that true? We're here to debate what we believe and to learn about what we and others believe, That doesn't mean we're experts on our beliefs and know everything there is to know.

Nobody is claiming authority - that is all a pretty transparent diversion.

And what I find problematic is that you think your examples are applicable to most if not all Catholics. And I believe I've mentioned this more than once.

Yes, you have said that, and yes i beleive they apply to most Catholics.

 

[Thana]

Nobody is claiming authority - that is all a pretty transparent diversion.

Yes, you have said that, and yes i beleive they apply to most Catholics.

You're doing it again!
I'm struggling to believe you're not messing with me. How do you not see that?!?

 

[Sunstone]

Why do you think God owes you the prevention of the consequences of your own choices? That defeats the point of creating beings with moral agency.

Only an imbecile is capable of thinking that an infinite punishment for a finite crime is reasonable or just. Do you seriously think your deity is an imbecile?

 

[Bunyip]

You're doing it again!
I'm struggling to believe you're not messing with me. How do you not see that?!?

Because I am being sincere. That is how.

 

[Thana]

Because I am being sincere. That is how.

I'm sure you are.
I'm sure you think you're being reasonable too, And I'm sure you think there most likely is no God.

But then, As I've been trying to say since the beginning, Your experiences aren't applicable to everyone nor are they applicable to the majority.

 

[Glaurung]

Only an imbecile is capable of thinking that an infinite punishment for a finite crime is reasonable or just. Do you seriously think your deity is an imbecile?

If you mean Hell, what if I told you that Hell is not a punishment for 'sins' so much as it's the only possible consequence of cutting yourself off from all that is positive? Hell is eternal not because God cannot forgive, but that those that are there have made a definitive refusal to be forgiven. This is what is meant by Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

The Church has always insisted that there is no depth from which God cannot pull you if you sincerely repent.

 

[Sunstone]

If you mean Hell, what if I told you that Hell is not a punishment for 'sins' so much as it's the only possible consequence of cutting yourself off from all that is positive. Hell is eternal not because God cannot forgive, but those that are there have made a definitive refusal to be forgiven. This is what is meant by Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

The Church has always insisted that there is no depth from which God cannot pull you if you sincerely repent.

Your interpretation is a bit more sophisticated than is common. That's not a criticism of it, but merely an observation. The Church would do well to teach it more often than they do.

Nevertheless, only a fool would insist that we have perfectly free will when a gun is stuck in our face, or if we were ever confronted with a choice between eternal torture or eternal bliss.