US vs Canadian Prison Systems: One man's surprising view

[Valjean]

If you want a safe society with low crime, rehabilitate. If you want a dangerous society, with angry, violent criminals cycling in and out of prison, punish.

Norway:

Germany:

Finland:

Greenland:

 

[libre]

If you want a safe society with low crime, rehabilitate. If you want a dangerous society, with angry, violent criminals cycling in and out of prison, punish.

Norway:

Germany:

Finland:

Greenland:

The only downside I can think of is that you would need a functioning social safety net for this to work.
I'm sure many Americans go to sleep dreaming of waking up in Norwegian prison.

 

[Valjean]

The only downside I can think of is that you would need a functioning social safety net for this to work.
I'm sure many Americans go to sleep dreaming of waking up in Norwegian prison.

If only....
Informing Americans of political alternatives and successful foreign solutions for endemic problems does not benefit the right-wing owners of the mass media. Americans remain blissfully unaware of successful solutions of social problems outside the US.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Any thoughts folks?

Part of the problem is that it feels unnatural not to punish. Recall that only a century or two ago most people thought that criminal punishment was suitable public entertainment, and some people still think it should be. It is not only criminals that can be cruel.

Most people are not criminals, because we believe we will be caught. A convict may not think so. They have experience which most of us lack. What keeps them from committing a crime again? You have to make them believe they will be caught. What prison can accomplish that feat?

Of course as you say, some people cannot imagine living within the confines of the law. That is some kind of special thinking.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

If only....
Informing Americans of political alternatives and successful foreign solutions for endemic problems does not benefit the right-wing owners of the mass media. Americans remain blissfully unaware of successful solutions of social problems outside the US.

And remember, there are currently no privately run prisons in Canada (the last one reverted to government in 2006), while over 8% of US prisoners are held in privately-run, for-profit organizations. In such a situation, which do you suppose takes precedence: profit, or correctional services aimed at returning inmates to society?

 

[Little Dragon]

And remember, there are currently no privately run prisons in Canada (the last one reverted to government in 2006), while over 8% of US prisoners are held in privately-run, for-profit organizations. In such a situation, which do you suppose takes precedence: profit, or correctional services aimed at returning inmates to society?

As far as I can tell, the US justice system seems geared toward criminalizing the poorest and most vulnerable.
Who benefits financially? (always my first question in these matters)
The private prison system and its owners and shareholders certainly. For every new prisoner, more money from the government will be forthcoming. Plus more subsidies and more grants. If the private owners can exploit the prisoners for cheap labour, more money. If they can cut corners and provide substandard services and living conditions, again, more money for shareholders and investors and executives. The privately run penal system, is essentially, a cash cow.

 

[Little Dragon]

The UK prison system is among the worst in Europe. With the largest prison population in Europe, with among the highest rates of recidivism in Europe.

So many problems in the UK, all of them, can be traced back to a conservative and elitist political party that has held power for far too long.

 

[metis]

The only downside I can think of is that you would need a functioning social safety net for this to work.
I'm sure many Americans go to sleep dreaming of waking up in Norwegian prison.

Tje Scandinavians are heavy into rehabilitation, thus an inmate must seek work prior to discharge if (s)he wants out early.

 

[metis]

The UK prison system is among the worst in Europe. With the largest prison population in Europe, with among the highest rates of recidivism in Europe.

So many problems in the UK, all of them, can be traced back to a conservative and elitist political party that has held power for far too long.

I don't know about there, but here in the States people don't want taxes raised to help build better prisons, personnel, and rehabilitation programs, thus we get what we are not willing to pay for.

 

[Little Dragon]

I don't know about there, but here in the States people don't want taxes raised to help build better prisons, personnel, and rehabilitation programs, thus we get what we are not willing to pay for.

Same issue here, kind of, rich people do not want to pay their fair share of taxes and instead hire accountants and tax lawyers to hide their money from the tax collectors or they lobby the puppets they own in govenment, to just legislate for them low taxes and other fiscal subsidies. Whilst setting the population against each other with culture wars so that the people are far too busy being divided and squabbling with each other, to realize who the real enemy is.
As such I do not vote, I reject representative parliamentary democracy in whole. As far as I am concerned, the country is ruled by the illegitimate and malevolent class of the elitist super rich. Class enemies of the people. Enemies of mankind itself.

Viva la revolution...

 

[Valjean]

Part of the problem is that it feels unnatural not to punish. Recall that only a century or two ago most people thought that criminal punishment was suitable public entertainment, and some people still think it should be. It is not only criminals that can be cruel.

Now this is worrisome. The only thing keeping people from running amok is fear of retribution? Don't you think most people have enough social conscience to behave without coercion?

Most people are not criminals, because we believe we will be caught. A convict may not think so. They have experience which most of us lack. What keeps them from committing a crime again? You have to make them believe they will be caught. What prison can accomplish that feat?

They also lack experience most of us do have: social skills, economic skills, work ethic, education, &c. They're enculturated in communities with few examples of "normal" social or economic behavior; communities where the major businesses are drug dealing or prostitution; where the respected pillars of the community are racketeers, drug dealers, pimps, &c. They livi low on Maslow's scale.
They don't have the skills to function in "normal" society. In fact, they usually see straight citizens as oppressors; as The Enemy. Is it any wonder they see crime as a normal economic activity?

Colonel Pickering: "Have you no morals, man?"
Alfred Doolittle: "Nah. Nah, can't afford 'em, guv'nor. Neither could you, if you was as poor as me.”
-- My Fair Lady.

Of course as you say, some people cannot imagine living within the confines of the law. That is some kind of special thinking.

Which is precisely why they need the resocialization and education the American 'justice system' doesn't supply. If we don't address the reasons they can't imagine a legitimate lifestyle, the problem will persist. If our prisons reïnforce the anger and dysfunctional behavior that got them there, the problem will persist.
Treat the illness, not the symptom.

Other systems manage to overcome our 'feeling-based' vindictiveness snd achieve better results. Assuaging the ire of victims is not the function of the justice system.

 

[Valjean]

As far as I can tell, the US justice system seems geared toward criminalizing the poorest and most vulnerable.
Who benefits financially? (always my first question in these matters)
The private prison system and its owners and shareholders certainly. For every new prisoner, more money from the government will be forthcoming. Plus more subsidies and more grants. If the private owners can exploit the prisoners for cheap labour, more money. If they can cut corners and provide substandard services and living conditions, again, more money for shareholders and investors and executives. The privately run penal system, is essentially, a cash cow.

Valid points.
I once worked as an RN for the Maryland state prison system, a five-prison complex in Jessup. The system was privatized, and I was offered the position of Director of Nursing. I quit. It was bad enough when it was state-run.

 

[Little Dragon]

In fact, they usually see straight citizens as oppressors; as The Enemy.

Along with all authorities, especially the "filth" the hated police. The biggest gang of them all, as far as the underclass is concerned. Mere henchmen and enforcers for the politicians and the rich and all that support the status quo.

I sympathize strongly. Personally.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Now this is worrisome. The only thing keeping people from running amok is fear of retribution? Don't you think most people have enough social conscience to behave without coercion?

I suppose that I think whatever thoughts you project onto me, since obviously I can't think anything else.

 

[libre]

Part of the problem is that it feels unnatural not to punish. Recall that only a century or two ago most people thought that criminal punishment was suitable public entertainment, and some people still think it should be. It is not only criminals that can be cruel.

I agree. The commitment even the supporters of rehabilitative justice have is often ankle deep.
Many people who say they want a rehabilitative justice system in NA really just want rehabilitative justice for the crimes they think shouldn't exist (drugs, prostitution, etc.) but still want the punitive system for the crimes they consider morally wrong, like murder and sexual assault.