Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[Estro Felino]

Let me guess- you’re not going to post a link or the quote because…?

Here it is:

Про забезпечення функціонування української мови як державної

Закон України від 25.04.2019 № 2704-VIII

zakon.rada.gov.ua

Порошенко назвал историческим решение Рады принять закон о языке

Президент Украины Петр Порошенко назвал историческим решение Верховной рады принять закон об украинском языке. Об этом он написал на своей странице в Facebook. Принятие закона Об обеспечении ...

www.rbc.ru

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't think it's a good idea to put trust in Putin or have blind loyalty to the CIA either. Governments and politicians operate as they do, but we can only hope that they're reasonable enough to be able to meet the needs of the people and the nation as a whole within the normal parameters and limitations every government has to face. To be sure, America's leadership seems off in la-la land these days. That recent spat in Congress between MTG and AOC takes the cake. And it's hard to say where all this Trump business is leading.

The whole country is going to hell in handbasket, yet they're arguing over porn stars and false eyelashes. Meanwhile, the suffering continues throughout the world, in Ukraine, Israel, Yemen, Iran, and many other places.

I love Americans and the American nation because so many Americans live here as many Italians live there.

But I cannot trust the CIA, I am sorry, after all that was done to Libya, our ally.
After all that was done in Iraq, where many American soldiers were sent to die pointlessly.

I am sorry. I feel like I can trust Putin, because he has never said anything against Europe.

 

[Tomef]

Here it is:

Про забезпечення функціонування української мови як державної

Закон України від 25.04.2019 № 2704-VIII

zakon.rada.gov.ua

Порошенко назвал историческим решение Рады принять закон о языке

Президент Украины Петр Порошенко назвал историческим решение Верховной рады принять закон об украинском языке. Об этом он написал на своей странице в Facebook. Принятие закона Об обеспечении ...

www.rbc.ru

You said you read this?

The relevant section:

Стаття 21. Державна мова у сфері освіти

Особам, які належать до національних меншин України, гарантується право на навчання в комунальних закладах освіти для здобуття дошкільної та початкової освіти, поряд із державною мовою, мовою відповідної національної меншини України. Це право реалізується шляхом створення відповідно до законодавства окремих класів (груп) із навчанням мовою відповідної національної меншини України поряд із державною мовою і не поширюється на класи (групи) з навчанням державною мовою.

You said:
‘It says that Donbas people cannot speak any other language than Ukrainian at school’

What it actually says:

Article 21. State language in the field of education

Persons belonging to national minorities of Ukraine are guaranteed the right to study in municipal educational institutions for preschool and primary education, along with the state language, the language of the relevant national minority of Ukraine. This right is realised by creating, in accordance with the legislation, individual classes (groups) with training in the language of the relevant national minority of Ukraine along with the state language and does not apply to classes (groups) with teaching in the state language.

Which you can see contradicts your claim. There is no mention in the whole document of the exclusion of the Russian language from schools and education. I have to say, I didn’t expect you to resort to flat out lying, but I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised. The kind of people who can be taken in by a character like Putin tend to have a very flexible notion of truth.

 

[Estro Felino]

You said you read this?

The relevant section:

Стаття 21. Державна мова у сфері освіти

Особам, які належать до національних меншин України, гарантується право на навчання в комунальних закладах освіти для здобуття дошкільної та початкової освіти, поряд із державною мовою, мовою відповідної національної меншини України. Це право реалізується шляхом створення відповідно до законодавства окремих класів (груп) із навчанням мовою відповідної національної меншини України поряд із державною мовою і не поширюється на класи (групи) з навчанням державною мовою.

You said:
‘It says that Donbas people cannot speak any other language than Ukrainian at school’

What it actually says:

Article 21. State language in the field of education

Persons belonging to national minorities of Ukraine are guaranteed the right to study in municipal educational institutions for preschool and primary education, along with the state language, the language of the relevant national minority of Ukraine. This right is realised by creating, in accordance with the legislation, individual classes (groups) with training in the language of the relevant national minority of Ukraine along with the state language and does not apply to classes (groups) with teaching in the state language.

Which you can see contradicts your claim. There is no mention in the whole document of the exclusion of the Russian language from schools and education. I have to say, I didn’t expect you to resort to flat out lying, but I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised. The kind of people who can be taken in by a character like Putin tend to have a very flexible notion of truth.

The problem is that in Donbas Russian-speaking people are the majority.
Yet they are forced to learn and to speak Ukrainian.
Do I speak Arabic, by chance?

I even provided you with the example of South Tyrol. South-Tyroleans are not forced to learn and to speak Italian.
We are different than the Kiev dictatorship.
We are tolerant and civilized.

 

[Tomef]

The problem is that in Donbas Russian-speaking people are the majority.
Yet they are forced to learn and to speak Ukrainian.
Do I speak Arabic, by chance?

I even provided you with the example of South Tyrol. South-Tyroleans are not forced to learn and to speak Italian.
We are different than the Kiev dictatorship.
We are tolerant and civilized.

You are deliberately misrepresenting the issue, if you don’t know that then perhaps you should try and understand it before commenting.

 

[Estro Felino]

You are deliberately misrepresenting the issue, if you don’t know that then perhaps you should try and understand it before commenting.

No...you misunderstood what I meant.
I did not mean that Donbas people are forbidden from speaking Russian at home.
I meant that they are forbidden from using Russian only at school. They want to use Russian only.
They are forced to learn Ukrainian at school, and they don't want to study in Ukrainian.
It's a matter of national sentiment.
They want to write the Russian и . Not the Ukrainian і .

So tell me...are Donbas people allowed to speak Russian only? Are they left alone?
Yes or no.

 

[Tomef]

No...you misunderstood what I meant.
I did not mean that Donbas people are forbidden from speaking Russian at home.
I meant that they are forbidden from using Russian only at school. They want to use Russian only.
They are forced to learn Ukrainian at school, and they don't want to study in Ukrainian.
It's a matter of national sentiment.
They want to write the Russian и . Not the Ukrainian і .

So tell me...are Donbas people allowed to speak Russian only? Are they left alone?
Yes or no.

I didn’t misunderstand you at all, you are simply changing what you said. Read your own posts. You make various false claims, of genocide, massacres and a clear claim that Russian language was banned by law in the Donbas.

As you are clearly incapable of conducting a discussion in good faith I’m going to leave it there.

 

[Estro Felino]

I didn’t misunderstand you at all, you are simply changing what you said. Read your own posts. You make various false claims, of genocide, massacres and a clear claim that Russian language was banned by law in the Donbas.

As you are clearly incapable of conducting a discussion on good faith I’m going to leave it there.

The problem is that you really think that the Donbas people should renounce their right to independence, by remaining in Ukraine, you are practically forcing a nation to be under the yoke of a tyranny that hates them (Kiev).
I side with peoples' right to self-determination.

 

[Kathryn]

The then leader of the Kyivan Russian sold the ‘rights’ to a special relationship with Kyiv to the Muscovites, and later imperial Russia effectively control part of what is now Ukraine (most of the remainder coming under the Hasburgs), not quite the same thing, and that whole arrangement lasted little more than a century.

Not quite true, as the largest faction in the republics they had Lenin over a barrel when it came to the recognition of Ukraine as a separate state within the USSR, as it remained throughout the soviet era. The grounds for the actual independence that came almost immediately after the fall of Soviet Russia (by a 92% majority vote) were well laid right from the beginning.

Well, let's be completely honest - It was several years after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Also I believe that the Crimea had the lowest percentage of votes for independence, at 54.19 percent of votes cast.

 

[Tomef]

Well, let's be completely honest - It was several years after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Also I believe that the Crimea had the lowest percentage of votes for independence, at 54.19 percent of votes cast.

Same year, same month. You believe as in you just looked it up? Yes, 92% is the aggregate. It can be broken down, along fairly obvious lines. Are you making a particular point, if so, what is it? The other parts of my post you quoted were centuries/decades ago, respectively.

If you’re just picking random pieces of info to assert something you don’t understand please don’t bother.

 

[Estro Felino]

You make various false claims, of genocide, massacres and a clear claim that Russian language was banned by law in the Donbas.

Yes, I repeat it: it was banned. Because if you force people to speak Ukrainian at school and at university or in town halls, you are practically banning Russian.

I advise you to read about this psychological mechanism:

Denial (Freud) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kathryn]

Same year, same month. You believe as in you just looked it up? Yes, 92% is the aggregate. It can be broken down, along fairly obvious lines. Are you making a particular point, if so, what is it? The other parts of my post you quoted were centuries/decades ago, respectively.

If you’re just picking random pieces of info to assert something you don’t understand please don’t bother.

I am understanding Ukraine more and more as I study that area, which is more than most people can say honestly. And the vote for Ukrainian independence happened as I said, several years after the fall of the Berlin Wall. I know because I lived in Germany at the time.

 

[Tomef]

I am understanding Ukraine more and more as I study that area, which is more than most people can say honestly. And the vote for Ukrainian independence happened as I said, several years after the fall of the Berlin Wall. I know because I lived in Germany at the time.

Read the post you responded to again please. If you are confusing the fall of the Berlin Wall, in Germany as you noted, with what I referred to, the fall of the Soviet Union, that’s a pretty good indication of a limited understanding.

 

[Kathryn]

I am not confusing the two. @Tomef No need to reread your post.

 

[Tomef]

I am not confusing the two. @Tomef No need to reread your post.

It seems you are. The fall of the Berlin Wall in Germany, not part of the USSR, and the fall of the USSR, which occurred in the same month/year as the Ukrainian independence vote, practically at the same time, are not the same thing.

 

[Kathryn]

It seems you are. The fall of the Berlin Wall in Germany, not part of the USSR, and the fall of the USSR, which occurred in the same month/year as the Ukrainian independence vote, practically at the same time, are not the same thing.

Like I said, I am not confusing the two. Maybe you are, I don't know. Anyway, I was going to address this and now I will. Every Russian country or state that seceded, seceded from the Soviet Union by the end of 1991, including but definitely not limited to Ukraine in late 1991. The Soviet Union fell apart.

Estonia and Lithuania were actually the first two republics to split from the Soviet Union.

 

[Stevicus]

No...you misunderstood what I meant.
I did not mean that Donbas people are forbidden from speaking Russian at home.
I meant that they are forbidden from using Russian only at school. They want to use Russian only.
They are forced to learn Ukrainian at school, and they don't want to study in Ukrainian.
It's a matter of national sentiment.
They want to write the Russian и . Not the Ukrainian і .

So tell me...are Donbas people allowed to speak Russian only? Are they left alone?
Yes or no.

I suppose if it's comparable to what we have in the U.S. (regarding Spanish speakers), it might not be that bad. I guess it just depends on how it is in practice. The language issue has been somewhat contentious in the past several decades, particularly in the realm of bilingual education, but there have been also those who have balked against bilingual voting ballots and businesses that have "press 2 for Spanish." Some have called it a rights issue and believe that any attempt to pass any "English only" legislation is racist against Hispanics.

In past eras, Hispanic children would suffer corporal punishment in schools if they were caught speaking Spanish. There were even worse abuses in the Indian Schools where Native children were forbidden to speak their native language. However, there have been significant reforms since those bad old days.

Of course, it's somewhat different in that Spanish, English, and Navajo are not mutually understandable. However, there is a subset of Spanish-speakers around here who speak what is often called "Spanglish."

Having heard both Russian and Ukrainian spoken, they appear to be mutually understandable, for the most part. They just appear to be different dialects, just like English would sound different in London, England as opposed to Dallas, Texas. For the most part, they would still be able to understand each other, as well as the slight orthographic changes and different word choice.

So, I guess I would wonder if they have some sort of equivalent to bilingual education in the Donbas. Do Ukrainian businesses offer the option of "press 2 for Russian" if a Russian speaker is calling them? Do they have voting ballots and other official documents in both Ukrainian and Russian? Did the Ukrainians ever make any linguistic accommodations for Crimean Tatars when they still had control of Crimea?

 

[Tomef]

Like I said, I am not confusing the two

Well, yes you are.

East Germany was never part of the Soviet Union.

The Soviet Union officially ceased to exist in December 1991. The Ukrainian vote for independence took place, as I said, almost immediately afterwards. Same month, same year.

 

[Tomef]

Having heard both Russian and Ukrainian spoken, they appear to be mutually understandable, for the most part. They just appear to be different dialects, just like English would sound different in London, England as opposed to Dallas, Texas. For the most part, they would still be able to understand each other, as well as the slight orthographic changes and different word choice.

The differences are much more distinct than that. Closer to the differences between the romance languages.

 

[Estro Felino]

I suppose if it's comparable to what we have in the U.S. (regarding Spanish speakers), it might not be that bad. I guess it just depends on how it is in practice. The language issue has been somewhat contentious in the past several decades, particularly in the realm of bilingual education, but there have been also those who have balked against bilingual voting ballots and businesses that have "press 2 for Spanish." Some have called it a rights issue and believe that any attempt to pass any "English only" legislation is racist against Hispanics.

It's a completely different situation. Hispanics are migrants, they deliberately move to the US, an English-speaking country.

Donbas people are Russian people who have spoken Russian since the times of Catherine the Great and ended up within the territory of Ukraine, when Ukraine was created by Stalin.
There was no problem until 1991 because the official language of the USSR was Russian.
But in this era they passed a law that imposes Ukrainian on Russian-speaking people.
That is how they became separatists.

I provided the example of South Tyrol where most people speak German, as you can see in the map.
It's a German-speaking province in Italy. Where people don't have to learn Italian, because German is the official language.
So German-speaking people can speak German anywhere: at school, in the university, in the Town Hall, etc...
they need no Italian-learning at all. Anywhere

If someday the Italian Government forbade South-Tyroleans from speaking German, it's normal that separatists would rise up and protest en masse.
And it's natural that Austria and Germany (but Austria in particular) would support them.
If the Italian soldiers massacred the separatists, it's normal that Austria would invade Italy to rescue them.

Having heard both Russian and Ukrainian spoken, they appear to be mutually understandable, for the most part. They just appear to be different dialects, just like English would sound different in London, England as opposed to Dallas, Texas. For the most part, they would still be able to understand each other, as well as the slight orthographic changes and different word choice.

Yes, they are very similar, with some differences about pronunciation, alphabet and vocabulary.
Yet Russians are very proud of their own language and don't want to learn a language in a Donbas that has always been Russophone since the times of Catherine the Great.

So, I guess I would wonder if they have some sort of equivalent to bilingual education in the Donbas. Do Ukrainian businesses offer the option of "press 2 for Russian" if a Russian speaker is calling them? Do they have voting ballots and other official documents in both Ukrainian and Russian? Did the Ukrainians ever make any linguistic accommodations for Crimean Tatars when they still had control of Crimea?

When Donbas was part of the Ukrainian state, they had to learn Ukrainian. They could use Russian as second language of course, but the first language was Ukrainian.