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Relatively Unfamiliar Situations and Unintentionally Mixing up Another Person's Pronouns

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Recently, two friends invited me to hang out and also meet two of their friends, one of whom is a trans woman. This was my first time meeting her, and it went well, as we got along and enjoyed the conversation. However, I also got her pronouns wrong a couple of times by sheer force of habit, since I'm used to addressing most people as members of the gender matching their sex (as I suspect most people are used to, given that most people's gender indeed matches their biological sex). Our mutual friends told me that it was okay and that she didn't have any issues with such mix-ups as long as they came from people who didn't intentionally misgender her.

This has made me wonder whether others here have had similar experiences due to habit, though. The question is merely out of curiosity, as such unintentional mix-ups haven't been even remotely a big deal, whether for trans people I've met or their friends who have introduced us to each other. It's also rare for any trans people where I live to have had sex reassignment surgery, since there are extremely complicated steps to doing so (including financial costs that are prohibitive for many people), not to mention that the social stigma and taboos surrounding it can lead to severe discrimination and safety issues.

The rest of this post is just for further context as to how about half of my close group of friends offline are LGBT and how I've been in situations like the above in the first place, so you can skip it if you're not interested in reading further without missing out on anything crucial to the question.

LGBT people, like irreligious and non-Abrahamic people where I'm from, have to keep that part of their life hidden from the vast majority of people they meet in order to avoid discrimination and threats to their safety, so some of them participate in LGBT communities online to meet accepting people with whom they can safely be themselves. This is part of why there's considerable overlap between some non-religious and some LGBT online communities frequented by people from the region—there are a lot of common experiences and shared challenges, not to mention that many LGBT people become irreligious or retain religious belief but are quite liberal, so they belong to both types of communities.

Basically, if you're a member of an online community focused on either group, you're almost guaranteed to meet many people from the other group, which has been the case with me ever since I started seeking out accepting company in irreligious communities online.

This sometimes results in unfamiliar situations and a need to rethink old habits and assumptions, but I've been immensely thankful for the accepting and non-judgmental atmosphere my friends and I have found within our current friend group. Most of us also see the majority of those situations as learning opportunities, so they're rarely cause any problems.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Recently, two friends invited me to hang out and also meet two of their friends, one of whom is a trans woman. This was my first time meeting her, and it went well, as we got along and enjoyed the conversation. However, I also got her pronouns wrong a couple of times by sheer force of habit, since I'm used to addressing most people as members of the gender matching their sex (as I suspect most people are used to, given that most people's gender indeed matches their biological sex). Our mutual friends told me that it was okay and that she didn't have any issues with such mix-ups as long as they came from people who didn't intentionally misgender her.
Such has been my experience.
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
Recently, two friends invited me to hang out and also meet two of their friends, one of whom is a trans woman. This was my first time meeting her, and it went well, as we got along and enjoyed the conversation. However, I also got her pronouns wrong a couple of times by sheer force of habit, since I'm used to addressing most people as members of the gender matching their sex (as I suspect most people are used to, given that most people's gender indeed matches their biological sex). Our mutual friends told me that it was okay and that she didn't have any issues with such mix-ups as long as they came from people who didn't intentionally misgender her.

This has made me wonder whether others here have had similar experiences due to habit, though. The question is merely out of curiosity, as such unintentional mix-ups haven't been even remotely a big deal, whether for trans people I've met or their friends who have introduced us to each other. It's also rare for any trans people where I live to have had sex reassignment surgery, since there are extremely complicated steps to doing so (including financial costs that are prohibitive for many people), not to mention that the social stigma and taboos surrounding it can lead to severe discrimination and safety issues.

The rest of this post is just for further context as to how about half of my close group of friends offline are LGBT and how I've been in situations like the above in the first place, so you can skip it if you're not interested in reading further without missing out on anything crucial to the question.

LGBT people, like irreligious and non-Abrahamic people where I'm from, have to keep that part of their life hidden from the vast majority of people they meet in order to avoid discrimination and threats to their safety, so some of them participate in LGBT communities online to meet accepting people with whom they can safely be themselves. This is part of why there's considerable overlap between some non-religious and some LGBT online communities frequented by people from the region—there are a lot of common experiences and shared challenges, not to mention that many LGBT people become irreligious or retain religious belief but are quite liberal, so they belong to both types of communities.

Basically, if you're a member of an online community focused on either group, you're almost guaranteed to meet many people from the other group, which has been the case with me ever since I started seeking out accepting company in irreligious communities online.

This sometimes results in unfamiliar situations and a need to rethink old habits and assumptions, but I've been immensely thankful for the accepting and non-judgmental atmosphere my friends and I have found within our current friend group. Most of us also see the majority of those situations as learning opportunities, so they're rarely cause any problems.
I know I'd **** up, I can't even get people's names right.
Just the other day I called someone Fleur, when their name is Freya. Why? Why?
Anyhoo what about joining RF? It's overrun with those goddam atheist types.
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
Another relevant fact: In Arabic, "you" is gendered, as are possessive pronouns and all nouns in the language. That means that using another person's gender pronouns occurs even when you address them in the second person, as opposed to English where "you" is genderless.
A tough one then. :disappointed:
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I know I'd **** up, I can't even get people's names right.
Just the other day I called someone Fleur, when their name is Freya. Why? Why?

To be fair, is Freya a common name outside northern Europe? If not, the confusion makes quite a bit of sense!

Anyhoo what about joining RF? It's overrun with those goddam atheist types.

I never introduce anyone I know from elsewhere to RF, even if they're my close friends. RF is my online sanctuary and space of free expression, where I can talk about almost anything (including my friendships), that has outlasted some friendships over the years, too. I wouldn't want someone to know who I was on here, especially not if we were no longer close.
 

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/they/it/neopronouns
I usually don't correct folk unless they intentionally being malicious. Most the time I just don't bother with correcting because if i do the person tends to either get really defensive or they get overly apologetic.
I do here cuz it's literally written right under my username.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
I have had the same experiences. It is difficult to throw off 55 years of cultural education (indoctrination?) in one go.

I have to admit that I feel a pressure to conform and this has generated feelings of resentment that I've had to wrestle with.

All I can do is hope that any person I encounter and incorrectly identify has a practical understanding that new ways take time to assimilate and find footing.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Not pronouns but name caused me embarrassment.

A checkout assistant at my local supermarket was always known as Jim, nice to spend a few minutes with while checking out.
One day i arrived at his checkout, he/she was dressed as a woman with the name tag "Jane".
It took me a few weeks before i stopped refering to her as Jim, although she didn't mind it really embarrassed me to get her name wrong.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I have had the same experiences. It is difficult to throw off 55 years of cultural education (indoctrination?) in one go.

I can imagine. Also, as I mentioned in the OP, since the vast majority of people are cisgender, referring to someone with pronouns associated with a gender not matching that person's sex is very different from the usual social routine of many people, hence sometimes requiring one to actively remember to do it.

Thankfully, most trans people I've interacted with have been quite understanding of such nuances. It's only when someone intentionally and repeatedly misgenders them that they take issue.

I have to admit that I feel a pressure to conform and this has generated feelings of resentment that I've had to wrestle with.

How so, if you don't mind sharing (regarding the pressure to conform)?

All I can do is hope that any person I encounter and incorrectly identify has a practical understanding that new ways take time to assimilate and find footing.

Agreed! I think such understanding is a good MO for life in general, not just gender-related issues.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
My wife and I have often been wished a Merry Christmas or Happy Easter. To the extent that we think about it at all, ee focus on intent.

I suspect (and expect) that if and when I botch pronouns, the person addressed will do the same.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
I can imagine. Also, as I mentioned in the OP, since the vast majority of people are cisgender, referring to someone with pronouns associated with a gender not matching that person's sex is very different from the usual social routine of many people, hence sometimes requiring one to actively remember to do it.

Thankfully, most trans people I've interacted with have been quite understanding of such nuances. It's only when someone intentionally and repeatedly misgenders them that they take issue.



How so, if you don't mind sharing (regarding the pressure to conform)?



Agreed! I think such understanding is a good MO for life in general, not just gender-related issues.
Mostly at work where there are people that identify differently and visually don't match my mental image of that identification. I don't want to to alienate colleagues I like and work with.

But it is also socially. Over New Years, there was a party at my house that included a polyamorous cis couple, a cross-dressing heterosexual male and his wife, two gay friends in a May/December romance, a lesbian trans couple and a woman that was identified as Amber, but looked like Tommy Lee in a skirt. With the balance being cis individuals and couples. All are interesting people in their own right, but as a tangential host, I felt compelled to do my best to address the needs and desires of the guests, while recognizing that this is all new in relation to my very old template of reality.

I did find humor in the political discussion that broke out between one of the trans women and a former Marine Trump supporter that refuses to recognize that he is not God's gift to women and the smartest person on Earth. But Dunning/Kruger is another thread. She held her own well and I was smiling inside while keeping an eye on this so it didn't get out of control.

That sort of pressure.
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
My wife and I have often been wished a Merry Christmas or Happy Easter. To the extent that we think about it at all, ee focus on intent.

I suspect (and expect) that if and when I botch pronouns, the person addressed will do the same.
It's a complex world out there! Our Sikh friends are more Christmassy than we are!
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Unless someone's genitals are exposed, I have no way of knowing their actual gender apart from all the usual visual clues. From which I would determine how to refer to them. And then they can correct me if I misinterpreted those visual clues.

The human mind tends to follow expectations and if I do misinterpret those visual clues and thereby mislabel someone I'm not going to feel bad or bothered by it as it happens to all of us, often. I'll simply stand corrected and move on. If they want an apology, I'll be happy to supply that as well. After all, it was my mistake. But if they're stIll offended, then that's on them. Humans will make mistakes and they need to learn to accept that.
 
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