Pro-Palestinian Peaceful Protests

[Jayhawker Soule]

The reasonable response to terrorism is not "kill civilians".

Excellent. Unfortunately, I suspect that your comment reflects a shallow and romanticized understanding of Hamas.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Permit me a couple of questions:

• What triggered that barbaric October 7th pogrom?
• What is "the reasonable response to terrorism"?

 

[Revoltingest]

Excellent. Unfortunately, I suspect that your comment reflects a shallow and romanticized understanding of Hamas.

I suspect that you response reflects a shallow understanding of the post.
Israel's massive & intentional killing & maiming of civilians, & destroying
their homes is an unreasonable response to terrorism.
In short....
Fighting terrorism by committing much greater terrorism is wrong.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Israel's massive & intentional killing & maiming of civilians,

Kind of hard to chat with you in a reasonable conversation when you are dominated by imaginary notions.

Israel targets Hamas, not civilians. In fact, it goes out of its way to inform civilians that it will be bombing so that they can move to safer locations, even though doing this undermines the advantage of surprise. The reason the death count is so high is because Hamas embeds among civilians on purpose, which btw is a war crime. You need to put the blame where it actually lies, which is on Hamas.

 

[Revoltingest]

Kind of hard to chat with you in a reasonable conversation when you are dominated by imaginary notions.

It's hard to chat with those who deny reality,
ie, that Zionists value Jews' lives, but not others'.
The best proof of my claim of intentional killing is
when Israel killed some of the hostages who'd
escaped, & had a white flag. Mistaken for
Palestinians, they were shot dead because of that.
More...
Israel said initially that it prioritized
destruction over accuracy.
Israel bombs the "safe" areas they told
Palestinians to go to.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

ie, that Zionists value Jews' lives, but not others'.

Oh don't be so utterly silly. I'm an ardent Zionist, and I value all lives. What you are doing is simply spreading irrational hatred. THAT is the mindset that leads to senseless wars and deaths. Take some time to examine yourself before you criticize others.

 

[Revoltingest]

Oh don't be so utterly silly.

You're failing to see that there's a side other than yours.
Genocide is far from silly, even if you substitute a lesser
word to describe such destruction & carnage.

I'm an ardent Zionist, and I value all lives.

That is at odds with the entire history of Zionism,
which began with the Nakba, & became apartheid
with other human rights crimes by the government
& people.

What you are doing is simply spreading irrational hatred.

What you are doing is wrongly accusing
of what Zionists are actually guilty of.

THAT is the mindset that leads to senseless wars and deaths.

Says one of the group that is causing the
overwhelming number of deaths.

Take some time to examine yourself before you criticize others.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You're failing to see that there's a side other than yours.
Genocide is far from silly, even if you substitute a lesser
word to describe such destruction & carnage.

Oh, genocide is in the works. It's just that it's not Israel. It's Hamas that has it as Article 7 of their charter to kill all the Jews. Where is your outrage? You see, your hypocrisy and Jew-hatred is very, very evident.

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

Oh, genocide is in the works. It's just that it's not Israel. It's Hamas that has it as Article 7 of their charter to kill all the Jews. Where is your outrage? You see, your hypocrisy and Jew-hatred is very, very evident.

Isn’t that charter been revised in 2007?

 

[Revoltingest]

Oh, genocide is in the works. It's just that it's not Israel. It's Hamas that has it as Article 7 of their charter to kill all the Jews.

But Jews are doing about 20 times the killing.
And this is rising as imposed starvation progresses.
Jews are making Gaza unlivable. Killing aid workers.
Destroying food. Burning their trucks.

Israel doesn't need a charter to confirm
what they do to Muslims...they just do it.

Where is your outrage?

My outrage is aimed at the worst malefactor,
ie, Israel...the country that soaks USA for dollars
& weapons to use for genocide.
I criticize Hamas. You don't notice.
Your posts show no concern for non-Jews dying
in vast numbers relative to Israeli deaths. No
concern for their being homeless. No concern
for the lack of justice.

You see, your hypocrisy and Jew-hatred is very, very evident.

Your argument comprises 3 parts....
1) Blame Hamas for whatever evil Israel does.
2) Deny the reality of this evil.
3) Personal attacks on any who criticize Israel.

You post that you love God & your neighbor
as yourself. Is it really so for Palestinians?
Your argument is increasingly failing with the
young, the educated, & non-Zionists.
Does this really suppress all feelings of shame?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Isn’t that charter been revised in 2007?

I think you may be referring to the 2017 "Document of General Principles and Policies" which is not a charter, but which is still an important document. Since it is not a charter, it doesn't really nullify the original charter but simply adds to it and clarifies it. However, since you brought it up (I think) let's address it.

The 2017 "Document of General Principles and Policies" talks about killing Zionists. Do you realize that virtually all Jews are Zionists? You have a handful of secular far-left Jews who are not, and you have a handful of Jews who are Haredim who are not. There are 15 million Jews in the world today. If they kill all the Jews who are Zionists, what is your estimate how many they will kill? Would you say more than 30,000? Would you say more than 6 million?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But Jews are doing about 20 times the killing.

If you are upset over the huge amount of casualties in Gaza, THAT I can understand. My problem is with your unjust characterization of it as genocide, which it certainly is NOT. Indeed, the whole thing was brought up before the International Court of Justice which, although it warned Israel about the high casualty rate, found there was insufficient evidence for the charge of genocide.

My other problem with you is your hypocrisy. You hold Israel to a much higher standard than everyone else in the world. I'm willing to say I do not approve of everything Israel does. In particular, I'm outraged at the terrorism among the Settlers, and extremely angry that Israel stalls the delivery of aid. The number of casualties absolutely break my heart, although I think Israel has done what it can to minimize these deaths. The devastation of Gazan infrastructure breaks my heart, although I simply cannot imagine any war where this does not happen.

Now what about you? You claim that you criticize Hamas. Here is your chance. Are ready to acknowledge about Hamas that
1. It is Hamas' policy of embedding that is responsible for the high casualty rate?
2. That such embedding is a war crime?
3. That refusal to wear military clothing, so as to conceal themselves as civilians is also a war crime?
4. That beheading children is a war crime?
5. That using rape as part of war is a war crime?
6. That torture of anyone, both soldier and civilian, is a war crime?
7. That the taking of hostages is a war crime?
8: That the confiscation of humanitarian aid, leading to starvation and death is a war crime?

I would also like to ask you a very specific question, and if you don't answer it, your hypocrisy and irrationality will be evident to all: I would like to hear your suggestion for exactly how Israel is to eliminate Hamas without bombing, invasion, and civilian casualties.

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

A weird asking to ask, I condemn every killing of a non-combatant, no matter the ethnicity and faith

Anyways I don’t consider that to be true, that almost all jews are Zionist. That’s just propaganda of the isreal government to avoid accountability of their war crimes.
Every Zionist is a Jew but not every Jew is a Zionist, this is what it means for decades. The government is trying to erase this and change the definition of the Zionist.
The Jews that are in authority of the occupation and agree to the oppression and killing of the Palestinian are Zionist. Those people should be stopped without a doubt

 

[IndigoChild5559]

A weird asking to ask, I condemn every killing of a non-combatant, no matter the ethnicity and faith

If only that were possible. But it's not. Please give me specific examples of what Israel should be doing instead that would result in the elimination of Hamas?

Anyways I don’t consider that to be true, that almost all jews are Zionist. That’s just propaganda of the isreal government to avoid accountability of their war crimes.
Every Zionist is a Jew but not every Jew is a Zionist, this is what it means for decades. The government is trying to erase this and change the definition of the Zionist.
The Jews that are in authority of the occupation and agree to the oppression and killing of the Palestinian are Zionist. Those people should be stopped without a doubt

In the future, please quote what you are replying to. It is a common courtesy for everyone reading your posts.

Let's make this easier by presenting a definition of Zionism: the support for the nation of Israel as a national homeland for the Jews aka a Jewish state. Here is what Zionism does NOT mean: non-critical support of Israel.

Your definition that "The Jews that are in authority of the occupation and agree to the oppression and killing of the Palestinian are Zionist" is incorrect. Such people make up only a teensy weensy proportion of Zionists. They are the lunatic fringe.

It is actually extremely common among those of us in the diaspora to be Zionist, but also disapprove of certain Israeli policies.

The statistic that 95% of American Jews are Zionist comes from an opinion piece by Gallup Senior Scientist Frank Newport, was responding to Trump's obnoxious claim that American Jewish Democrats were being disloyal to Israel. As part of his essay, he estimates that 95% of American Jews are Zionist. There is no direct study that supports this, but Newport is an expert pollster incredibly familiar with the issue, so while it is an estimation, it is likely not that far off base.

Now, for what I really want to address. I asked you a question in post 91 which you have not yet answered, so I will ask again. In my experience people who refuse to give straight answers are usually being duplicitous but I want to give you a chance to clear it up:
"There are 15 million Jews in the world today. If they kill all the Jews who are Zionists, what is your estimate how many they will kill? Would you say more than 30,000? Would you say more than 6 million?"

 

[MayPeaceBeUpOnYou]

If only that were possible. But it's not. Please give me specific examples of what Israel should be doing instead that would result in the elimination of Hamas?

Well there is your problem. Thinking that Hamas should be eliminated, which is impossible since it’s a ideology, a resistance against occupation,

he statistic that 95% of American Jews are Zionist comes from an opinion piece by Gallup Senior Scientist Frank Newport, was responding to Trump's obnoxious claim that American Jewish Democrats were being disloyal to Israel. As part of his essay, he estimates that 95% of American Jews are Zionist. There is no direct study that supports this, but Newport is an expert pollster incredibly familiar with the issue, so while it is an estimation, it is likely not that far off base.

Oh wait you are talking about 95% of the Jews in the US are Zionist? Just want to clarification ?

Now, for what I really want to address. I asked you a question in post 91 which you have not yet answered, so I will ask again. In my experience people who refuse to give straight answers are usually being duplicitous but I want to give you a chance to clear it up:
"There are 15 million Jews in the world today. If they kill all the Jews who are Zionists, what is your estimate how many they will kill? Would you say more than 30,000? Would you say more than 6 million?"

Who is saying that Hamas will exterminate every Zionist if the occupation will end?
don’t have a estimate since I don’t know how many Jews are zionist so I can’t tell you a estimate. The idea that that Hamas has the ability to kill all the Jews is a bit far fetched since isreal being backed by the west.
I like to believe if there is a end to the occupation there is a future where people can leave in peace. But we both agree that isreal doesn’t want that right?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Oh, genocide is in the works. It's just that it's not Israel. It's Hamas that has it as Article 7 of their charter to kill all the Jews. Where is your outrage? You see, your hypocrisy and Jew-hatred is very, very evident.

There was a time when anti-Semitism meant something. Now for a number of people in the world, it's a badge of honor regardless of the history of people they like to defend and tout as being the victims.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If only that were possible. But it's not. Please give me specific examples of what Israel should be doing instead that would result in the elimination of Hamas?

Well there is your problem. Thinking that Hamas should be eliminated, which is impossible since it’s a ideology, a resistance against occupation,

It is a terrorist organization. It is no different than when the world fought against al qaeda or ISIS.

Oh wait you are talking about 95% of the Jews in the US are Zionist? Just want to clarification ?

I was extremely clear. Go back and read what I wrote again.

Who is saying that Hamas will exterminate every Zionist if the occupation will end?
don’t have a estimate since I don’t know how many Jews are zionist so I can’t tell you a estimate.

Sure. Now the entire forum sees that you refuse to even attempt answer the question. You clearly have an idea in your head what proportion of Jews are Zionist, since you think that I, by comparison, am exaggerating.

The idea that that Hamas has the ability to kill all the Jews is a bit far fetched since isreal being backed by the west.

Irrelevant. Could Hitler have killed every last Jew in the world. Of course not. But he wanted to. THAT is what counts.

I like to believe if there is a end to the occupation there is a future where people can leave in peace. But we both agree that isreal doesn’t want that right?

You are living in la la land. Do you know what will happen if Israel is irradicated? Jews will once more be forced to live in countries not our own, victimized by repeated incidents of pogroms, just as it was before the state of Israel. But I know enough about you to know you don't give a damn.

In my mind, the only ethical solution is for the land to be split, with a Jewish state and a Palestinian state. I would accept the 1967 borders.

 

[Revoltingest]

If you are upset over the huge amount of casualties in Gaza, THAT I can understand. My problem is with your unjust characterization of it as genocide, which it certainly is NOT.

It fits the 1948 UN definition.
I've covered this before.

My other problem with you is your hypocrisy.

Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

You hold Israel to a much higher standard than everyone else in the world.

Wrong.

I'm willing to say I do not approve of everything Israel does. In particular, I'm outraged at the terrorism among the Settlers, and extremely angry that Israel stalls the delivery of aid.

That's a good start.

The number of casualties absolutely break my heart, although I think Israel has done what it can to minimize these deaths. The devastation of Gazan infrastructure breaks my heart, although I simply cannot imagine any war where this does not happen.

Lamenting the death & destruction
without assigning culpability to the
perpetrator is weak.

Now what about you? You claim that you criticize Hamas. Here is your chance. Are ready to acknowledge about Hamas that
1. It is Hamas' policy of embedding that is responsible for the high casualty rate?
2. That such embedding is a war crime?
3. That refusal to wear military clothing, so as to conceal themselves as civilians is also a war crime?
4. That beheading children is a war crime?
5. That using rape as part of war is a war crime?
6. That torture of anyone, both soldier and civilian, is a war crime?
7. That the taking of hostages is a war crime?
8: That the confiscation of humanitarian aid, leading to starvation and death is a war crime?

I would also like to ask you a very specific question, and if you don't answer it, your hypocrisy and irrationality will be evident to all: I would like to hear your suggestion for exactly how Israel is to eliminate Hamas without bombing, invasion, and civilian casualties.

I won't do this every time a Zionist demands
criticism of Hamas. But I note that the crimes
you've listed have been committed by Israel,
including beheading children (falsely claimed
about Hamas).

You keep on posting personal attacks.
I've spared you my opinion of you personally
so far. You don't want me to go there. Stick
to the issues, & don't make it personal, lest
I become candid.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It fits the 1948 UN definition.
I've covered this before.

According to the 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, genocide is defined as any act that aims to destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, in whole or in part. That is NOT what is happening in Gaza. It is not the intent of Israel to kill off Palestinians either in whole or part. Their objective is clearly to destroy Hamas. COLLATERAL DAMAGE is not genocide.

But I note
that the crimes you've listed have been
committed by Israel, including beheading
children (falsely claimed about Hamas).

Oh puhleeze. Link me to any Israeli document that calls for children to be beheaded. Do you even have any evidence that renegade IDF not following Israeli policy have beheaded children?

The IDF has plenty of photos of the atrocities of 10/7. Many of these photos and videos were produced by Hamas itself, and found when their phones were confiscated. 10/7 was not just a normal military battle. Unlike what the IDF is doing in Gaza, Hamas very definitely targeted civilians, including kids. Their maps indicating where schools and youth centers are marked should clue you in. And they didn't just kill them. They tortured them before their deaths. Their actions were utterly sadistic.

You keep calling me a hypocrite.

You had a chance to clarify, and openly refused to. You have earned the label of hypocrite.

 

[Revoltingest]

According to the 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, genocide is defined as any act that aims to destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, in whole or in part. That is NOT what is happening in Gaza. It is not the intent of Israel to kill off Palestinians either in whole or part. Their objective is clearly to destroy Hamas. COLLATERAL DAMAGE is not genocide.

With so many dead, so many injured, so many homes
destroyed, & Israel negotiating to deport the survivors
to Africa, this meets the definition.

Oh puhleeze. Link me to any Israeli document that calls for children to be beheaded.

Calling for it isn't the problem.
Doing it is. (Israel uses bombs.)

Do you even have any evidence that renegade IDF not following Israeli policy have beheaded children?

Stated policy isn't what matters.
Acts do.

The IDF has plenty of photos of the atrocities of 10/7. Many of these photos and videos were produced by Hamas itself, and found when their phones were confiscated. 10/7 was not just a normal military battle. Unlike what the IDF is doing in Gaza, Hamas very definitely targeted civilians, including kids. Their maps indicating where schools and youth centers are marked should clue you in. And they didn't just kill them. They tortured them before their deaths. Their actions were utterly sadistic.

Israel has long tortured Palestinians.
Why decry torture only when done by Hamas?

You had a chance to clarify, and openly refused to. You have earned the label of hypocrite.

Your posts show vicious bigotry that values only the
lives of Jews, & cares naught for the rights & lives
of non-Jews, particularly Muslims, ie, Islamophobia.
Your posted defense of Israel's deadly vengeance under
the pretense of self defense is to justify genocide.
To deny the act by denying the label for it just reeks of
desperate hypocrisy. Your continual personal attacks
bespeak intolerance typical of fanatical Zionists who
are unwilling to consider other views.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Calling for it isn't the problem.
Doing it is. (Israel uses bombs.)

You basically just confessed to blatant lying. You began by saying Israel beheaded babies. Now you want to say instead they bombed them. I've had enough of you and your irrational hate. I will no longer be reading or replying to your nutty, irresponsible posts.