One God or many gods

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Let me clarify, since I think I can pinpoint where our misunderstanding occurred. After examining this closely, I think this is a case where we both are right.

Witchcraft is forbidden, because some people believe in it and attempt to use it, and I can fully understand you pointing to this and saying "See, it does exist." But its claims are false. Casting a spell accomplishes absolutely nothing. The only thing an amulet does is make you feel good. In this respect, a working Witchcraft does not exist, which is what I was pointing out.

In the identical way, the prohibitions against idolatry and other gods are there because people BELIEVE in these false gods and worship them. So yes, the PRACTICE of idolatry exists, which I believe is your point. But their belief does not mean that these gods actually exist, nor does the prohibition of idolatry mean that these false gods exist, which is the point I was trying to make.

Consider this a case of "we are both right" and kind of were talking past each other at first.

Ok. Agree. Thx.

 

[River Sea]

If you say so. Personally, I have never observed consciousness without a central nervous system. I'd love somebody to demonstrate such a thing to me, but for some mysterious reason, nobody can manage it. (Hint: that's why some of us think it doesn't exist.)

@Evangelicalhumanist

fill in the line with what ever word you want to use.

I allow _____ to teach me how to feed from _____ who lives in me

people fills in that line that helps them connect

The only reason why I called Devine light is because I've seen light in people radiate outward., that light was able to think

I also feed from that light a ..fi.re.bu.rn. I put . because can I use that word

That's my personal experience

Later I learn from @dybmh that light is shechina. so not God, but a vessel

I thought light was God., but still even if I'm wrong I can still drink from light as I allow to be taught how

now I need to reference and please read below referencing

Right, not God, but a vessel.

Judaism asserts that all of existence is a direct consequence of the partnership of ever-flowing-vitality and vessels.

The shechina is nothing more than a vessel. From the shechina is flowing vitality in the form of divine-will. All of existence is a direct consequence of ever-flowing-vitality through the shechina. Existence = ever-flowing-vitality + shechina. From the finite perspective, both the ever-flowing-vitality and the shechina are perceived as a unity, but, in truth, they are not. The divine-will which is forming the shechina is the same divine-will which is producing the flow of vitality. This simultaneous, synchronous, and mutually sympathetic partnership of the vessel+flow is the reason that the shechina is misunderstood as the One and Only God, a god, or perhaps an angel with a will of its own. It does not have its own will. It is being formed by the One and Only God for the purpose of directing the ever-flowing-vitality ( what you often describe as "light" ) into a material existence.

Because the shechina is the most "proximal" vessel to the material realm, it is the easiest form to use when contemplating divine entities. "Proximal" is in quotes because time and space do not exist beyond the material realm. From the infinite perspective, all is omnipresent and concurrent.

There I reference

What I learn personally is when I allow _____ to teach me how in the midst of my thoughts, emotions, situations, then _______ teaches me how and [an added personal is the teaching] is extremely personal, too taking it all, and showing me how to feed from light in me, [that writing looks confusing.]

This was and still is extremely meaningful for me because I'm in a first position learning from within my actual situations, my thinking and my emotions that follows my thoughts, and no I don't get rid of my thoughts its in the midst of my thoughts I allow ____ to teach me how to feed from., and also I notice [made up word] a cycle my thoughts cycle through light thoughts, this is how I'm taught, and it's through allowing

and I keep re-learning this too, as there's times I try to do it myself and I can't, as it's through allowing light to do it, feeding me.

If I try to do it myself, then I get stuck, and I actually get more hungry to feed from, so I'll relearn, it's when I allow to be taught how to feed from and then I'm feeding from

 

[dybmh]

There I reference

What I learn personally is when I allow _____ to teach me how in the midst of my thoughts, emotions, situations, then _______ teaches me how and [an added personal is the teaching] is extremely personal, too taking it all, and showing me how to feed from light in me, [that writing looks confusing.]

This was and still is extremely meaningful for me because I'm in a first position learning from within my actual situations, my thinking and my emotions that follows my thoughts, and no I don't get rid of my thoughts its in the midst of my thoughts I allow ____ to teach me how to feed from., and also I notice [made up word] a cycle my thoughts cycle through light thoughts, this is how I'm taught, and it's through allowing

and I keep re-learning this too, as there's times I try to do it myself and I can't, as it's through allowing light to do it, feeding me.

If I try to do it myself, then I get stuck, and I actually get more hungry to feed from, so I'll relearn, it's when I allow to be taught how to feed from and then I'm feeding from

yup.

at risk of sounding parental, in addition to this, please don't forget to prioritize sustenance for the body, water, sleep, etc...

 

[Bear Wild]

I disagree with your premise. Prohibition is not evidence of existence. For example, Witchcraft is forbidden. But Witchcraft doesn't work -- it is a fraud.

What do you mean witchcraft is a fraud? I am probably taking this out of context, but I found the statement alarming. And I do not understand what witchcraft you are talking about that doesn't work. I am probably misunderstanding so please inform me.

 

[Bear Wild]

Casting a spell accomplishes absolutely nothing. The only thing an amulet does is make you feel good. In this respect, a working Witchcraft does not exist, which is what I was pointing out.

This is incorrect. I am surprised you would make such a statement.

 

[Bear Wild]

From my very cursory review of recent posts, it appears his remark is made about God, not the gods. The idea that God has no gender is one of many ways that a monotheistic God is often different from polytheistic gods.

So is this like Ymir who was both male and female. Does this god contain both the light and dark of this world as well as the chaos and order. Is this god representative of both yin and yang as one entity without losing both?

 

[Bear Wild]

Monotheistic religions have symbols like the cross and kaaba. Hindu religion sees idols as such symbols and calls The God as Brahman. They are the same. In practice though the Hindus have focussed on the idol hence their fall.

The people I know who practice use the sacred site as the focus to connect with something greater and thus there is no fall. But I am not Hindu. The reported idols in European traditions were never seen as the important connection. Rather it is like the finger pointing to the moon. You use it to experience the moon and not believe the finger is the moon. Everyone i know who have alters never make the mistake you are claiming.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So is this like Ymir who was both male and female. Does this god contain both the light and dark of this world as well as the chaos and order. Is this god representative of both yin and yang as one entity without losing both?

I think you are missing the point. God has no body, no form. He/she/it doesn't have sex organs because he is not corporeal and doesn't need to have sex.

FWIW, yin and yang have absolutely nothing to do with this.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

This is incorrect. I am surprised you would make such a statement.

Why are you surprised. I'm well known in these rooms to accept scientific discoveries.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What do you mean witchcraft is a fraud? I am probably taking this out of context, but I found the statement alarming. And I do not understand what witchcraft you are talking about that doesn't work. I am probably misunderstanding so please inform me.

My understanding is that witchcraft is a kind of generic word that applies to the casting of magic spells and incantations and use of so called magic items. I would use this definition even if I were talking about practitioners of magic in my own religion.

For example, we Jews have a tradition of putting a mezuzah on all the doors of our homes. The purpose is to remind us frequently to keep the commandments. But there are some Jews who believe that these mezuzot actually protect the home from harm. THAT is magic, and it is not a reality. Maimonides actually devotes two chapters to his Mishnah Torah emphatically denying any protective function. Nevertheless, people with this ideation are going to continue believing what they believe.

Because I value scientific discovery as the most accurate way of knowing objective reality, I understand that magic doesn't work. For many practitioners, they simply are not aware of reality. Doing magic tickles their intuition, it is an experience that is deeply meaningful on a psychological level. There are a minority who know full well magic doesn't work, but do it in order to fleece others.

 

[Bear Wild]

I think you are missing the point. God has no body, no form. He/she/it doesn't have sex organs because he is not corporeal and doesn't need to have sex.

FWIS, yin and yang have absolutely nothing to do with this.

I can understand this perspective and it makes perfect sense to me. You have to understand that being raised in a Christian environment There is a massive tendency to assign a male characteristic not necessarily sexual parts. When I refer to male and female it is not as sexes in a human form but rather as of opposing aspects of our world where both have to exist for the world we know to exist.

 

[Bear Wild]

My understanding is that witchcraft is a kind of generic word that applies to the casting of magic spells and incantations and use of so called magic items. I would use this definition even if I were talking about practitioners of magic in my own religion.

For example, we Jews have a tradition of putting a mezuzah on all the doors of our homes. The purpose is to remind us frequently to keep the commandments. But there are some Jews who believe that these mezuzot actually protect the home from harm. THAT is magic, and it is not a reality. Maimonides actually devotes two chapters to his Mishnah Torah emphatically denying any protective function. Nevertheless, people with this ideation are going to continue believing what they believe.

Because I value scientific discovery as the most accurate way of knowing objective reality, I understand that magic doesn't work. For many practitioners, they simply are not aware of reality. Doing magic tickles their intuition, it is an experience that is deeply meaningful on a psychological level. There are a minority who know full well magic doesn't work, but do it in order to fleece others.

The problem is that witchcraft has become a legitimate spiritual practice which is not about magic but rather coming into a deep relationality with the natural element of our world. What they may call magic or spell work is not some supernatural trick. It rather refers to a much more profound understanding of relationality of our natural world. An example is the use of herbs for some treatment, they take the time to understand the plant and its cycles to know when to collect for its most potent effect and when to give for best results. This is true for most indigenous societies who know the environment well enough to respect the plants and know when, how much and how to collect it. This is indigenous science. As for other forms of spells and magic they know there is not a direct cause and effect but learn how these influence them and others that can lead to change. This is a very complex topic to understand since it is tapping into complex world in an intuitive and spiritual way that has as much meaning as any spiritual practice.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The problem is that witchcraft has become a legitimate spiritual practice which is not about magic but rather coming into a deep relationality with the natural element of our world.

This is how the Oxford Dictionary defines witchcraft:
witch·craft
/ˈwiCHˌkraft/
noun
the practice of magic, especially for evil purposes; the use of spells.

I would maintain that any religion, new or old, pagan or otherwise, that does NOT use magic cannot be said to be witchcraft. I would include here those pagans who do spells and incantations but only for the sake of altering their own thinking and feelings, NOT because they believe it changes reality.

An example is the use of herbs for some treatment,

Herbalism can be a perfectly valid field to learn and use. When I was younger, I was WAY into herbalism. If you are into herbs, I support you--just be careful because the field mixes a lot of unsubstantiated claims in with the real stuff.

It is not witchcraft. It is medicine, or at worst, a failed attempt at medicine. It is very common for the use of herbs to be correlated with those who also do magic. But that is clearly not always the case. Thus, we cannot point to someone's use of herbs and say "that's witchcraft." Again, I refer you to the Oxford Dictionary.

 

[Bear Wild]

This is how the Oxford Dictionary defines witchcraft:
witch·craft
/ˈwiCHˌkraft/
noun
the practice of magic, especially for evil purposes; the use of spells.

I would maintain that any religion, new or old, pagan or otherwise, that does NOT use magic cannot be said to be witchcraft. I would include here those pagans who do spells and incantations but only for the sake of altering their own thinking and feelings, NOT because they believe it changes reality.

Herbalism can be a perfectly valid field to learn and use. When I was younger, I was WAY into herbalism. If you are into herbs, I support you--just be careful because the field mixes a lot of unsubstantiated claims in with the real stuff.

It is not witchcraft. It is medicine, or at worst, a failed attempt at medicine. It is very common for the use of herbs to be correlated with those who also do magic. But that is clearly not always the case. Thus, we cannot point to someone's use of herbs and say "that's witchcraft." Again, I refer you to the Oxford Dictionary.

That is because they are using an outdated use of the term. The people who i know that practice witchcraft would tell you how wrong the definition is. Things have changed with time which seems to be the way of the world.

 

[Bear Wild]

This is how the Oxford Dictionary defines witchcraft:
witch·craft
/ˈwiCHˌkraft/
noun
the practice of magic, especially for evil purposes; the use of spells.

I would maintain that any religion, new or old, pagan or otherwise, that does NOT use magic cannot be said to be witchcraft. I would include here those pagans who do spells and incantations but only for the sake of altering their own thinking and feelings, NOT because they believe it changes reality.

Herbalism can be a perfectly valid field to learn and use. When I was younger, I was WAY into herbalism. If you are into herbs, I support you--just be careful because the field mixes a lot of unsubstantiated claims in with the real stuff.

It is not witchcraft. It is medicine, or at worst, a failed attempt at medicine. It is very common for the use of herbs to be correlated with those who also do magic. But that is clearly not always the case. Thus, we cannot point to someone's use of herbs and say "that's witchcraft." Again, I refer you to the Oxford Dictionary.

The etymology of witchcraft comes from wiccian "to practice witchcraft. From Wikipedia we have In modern english, the term Wicca which refers to Wicca, the religion of contemporary Pagan witchcraft. In their religion they state do no harm to others.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That is because they are using an outdated use of the term. The people who i know that practice witchcraft would tell you how wrong the definition is. Things have changed with time which seems to be the way of the world.

I didn't exactly quote an outdated 50 year old dictionary. This is still the working definition of the word in English.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The etymology of witchcraft comes from wiccian "to practice witchcraft. From Wikipedia we have In modern english, the term Wicca which refers to Wicca, the religion of contemporary Pagan witchcraft. In their religion they state do no harm to others.

Wicca? Wicca is a brand spankin' new religion, one of the many forms of Neo-Paganism. It was not around when the word "witchcraft" came into English. I have known Wiccans who do believe in and practice witchcraft, and others who so not.

 

[Bear Wild]

I didn't exactly quote an outdated 50 year old dictionary. This is still the working definition of the word in English.

I know but in our current times the predominate path has been wicca which is legitimate and those witch's I know, which are neighbors on either side of me, fit the new understanding of witchcraft. I am just saying because of these changes making blanket statements is no longer helpful. Sorry, You new dictionary still needs updating. You certainly do not want to make the mistake with your definition to one of my neighbors.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I know but in our current times the predominate path has been wicca which is legitimate and those witch's I know, which are neighbors on either side of me, fit the new understanding of witchcraft. I am just saying because of these changes making blanket statements is no longer helpful. Sorry, You new dictionary still needs updating. You certainly do not want to make the mistake with your definition to one of my neighbors.

I'm sorry, but I'm just completely unsympathetic to people who think they have the authority to redefine words.

By the way, this has nothing to do with Wicca per se. If you are Wiccan, knock yourself out.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

The people I know who practice use the sacred site as the focus to connect with something greater and thus there is no fall. But I am not Hindu. The reported idols in European traditions were never seen as the important connection. Rather it is like the finger pointing to the moon. You use it to experience the moon and not believe the finger is the moon. Everyone i know who have alters never make the mistake you are claiming.

There are different planes of connection. I agree that the idols have limitations. Not recognizing this has led to the decline of hinduism. But it is more a question of focus. I have not studied european idols. But symbols are all over. The cross, kaaba, and star.