How do we overcome tribalism?

[Pete in Panama]

If we're using resources faster than they're being replaced...

My preference is to take this one step at a time because I like to look at quantities.

Let's understand that the majority of the new wealth being created is information, we have virtually an endless supply of info to be mined. As for other raw materials, we should consider prices as a good index of scarcity. True, commodity prices are volatile but at the same time there's been no up or down long term trend for almost 2 centuries:

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I've seen that point a few times on this thread... well, maybe this is true, maybe not. But even if it's true, then the counter-point is: Even if it is natural, we have to deal with it. After all, natural does not equal good. Eg. we might have a natural urge to grope random women, but (I seriously hope) we never do it, for very good reasons. Whatever the case, we somehow have to cooperate, and currently I see a strong tendency to shut oneself off, retreat into an echo chamber, and curse the "enemy". And that is no bueno, at all!

The urge to grope random women isn't innate in our human social behavior like wanting to accustom oneself to the values of your "pack".

 

[Heyo]

you & I have to wildly different approaches to this question.

I don't think so. We already agreed that there is a positive trend over longer timelines. And we agree that that positive trend will most probably extend into the future.

My take is to establish common ground and make a measured analysis of what we can both observe together. What I'm hearing from you here are political slogans --my expectation is that you'll get into the infamous rule by corporations next.

That isn't a problem tho as I see a lot of very good people sounding that way. My only hope is that you & I can remain friends in spite of my failure to join your political faction.

What I'm saying is that the curve isn't monotonously rising. There are bumps in the road, sometimes a fall back to deepest barbarity. We had a really good time in the recent past but we should not be to naïve in thinking that it will go on just by its own. The rights we have gained in the '60s have been fought for and we need to fight on to keep them.

 

[Valjean]

Please forgive me for stopping you right there.

The world right now is not overpopulated. We are not running out of food. Food prices are cheaper now than they were in the past and people are eating better now than we ate in the past. This overpopulation nonsense was all the rage a few decades ago in the U.S. and then the U.S. population stopped growing. Right now the only reason there are more Americans is immigration.

The world is getting richer & rich people have a lower birthrate --demographic realities.

Yet the world's population is still increasing, resources are diminishing and becoming harder to access, and biodiversity and the biota themselves are decreasing.
"The world" is not getting richer. Humans. on average, are getting richer, and even amongst ourselves the wealth is distributed very unevenly.

It is not about us. It's about the planet; the ecosphere. We're just one species. Other species have a right to exist, as well, but we're killing them off and destroying their habitat. Extinction rates are at a historic high.
We are, in fact, acting exactly like pathogens in an infected organism.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Yet the world's population is still increasing, resources are diminishing and becoming harder to access...

We're not seeing the same world here. I see an essentially unlimited room for the creation of information --and it's information that represents the majority of the new wealth created. As for physical resources, the situation we got is that they're NOT harder to access. They're as accessible as they were centuries ago:

It's possible that our problem comes from how we're approaching the question. You appear to make an emotional statement that demands action. My approach takes into consideration what we can both observe together.

Two very different approaches.

 

[Stevicus]

We're not seeing the same world here. I see an essentially unlimited room for the creation of information --and it's information that represents the majority of the new wealth created. As for physical resources, the situation we got is that they're NOT harder to access. They're as accessible as they were centuries ago:
View attachment 86236
It's possible that our problem comes from how we're approaching the question. You appear to make an emotional statement that demands action. My approach takes into consideration what we can both observe together.

Two very different approaches.

In terms of what you're both observing, it appears you might be just observing a few trees and declaring them sound, while @Valjean is observing the entire forest as a whole. You've twice posted a chart showing the prices of a few key metals, but it doesn't show everything. I notice oil and gas aren't on the list, among other things.

 

[vijeno]

The urge to grope random women isn't innate in our human social behavior like wanting to accustom oneself to the values of your "pack".

True. It's not THAT easy to find good comparions. ;-) Groping is a maladaptive outward expression of a natural and morally neutral impulse, which needs to be channelled into a more productive expression. And in in that regard, I think there is a similarity w/ our need for community and tribalism. We crave connection, we crave community with people who are similar to us, and we need to be safe from attacks - and then we express this complex as animosity towards people who have done us no wrong, we assume that everyone from outside our group is inherently evil, etc.

Do you agree that this is the case? And if so, that the latter part - the maladaptive expression - needs mitigation?

 

[Valjean]

We're not seeing the same world here. I see an essentially unlimited room for the creation of information --and it's information that represents the majority of the new wealth created. As for physical resources, the situation we got is that they're NOT harder to access. They're as accessible as they were centuries ago:
View attachment 86236
It's possible that our problem comes from how we're approaching the question. You appear to make an emotional statement that demands action. My approach takes into consideration what we can both observe together.

Two very different approaches.

 

[Valjean]

We're not seeing the same world here. I see an essentially unlimited room for the creation of information --and it's information that represents the majority of the new wealth created. As for physical resources, the situation we got is that they're NOT harder to access. They're as accessible as they were centuries ago:
View attachment 86236
It's possible that our problem comes from how we're approaching the question. You appear to make an emotional statement that demands action. My approach takes into consideration what we can both observe together.

Two very different approaches.

How much ecological damage is the extraction and usage of those metals causing?
And there remains the decreasing topsoil and increasing aquifer depths. the decreasing number of insects, birds and dozens of other species, the deforestation and oceanic pollution, and, of course, climate change.

These are real changes in the planetary systems we depend on, all tied directly or indirectly to our massive population The human prosperity you point to is the result of ecologically dangerous industrial, extractive and agricultural practices.

 

[Pete in Panama]

In terms of what you're both observing, it appears you might be just observing a few trees and declaring them sound, while @Valjean is observing the entire forest as a whole. You've twice posted a chart showing the prices of a few key metals, but it doesn't show everything. I notice oil and gas aren't on the list, among other things.

--and while you have not posted any info oil & gas prices you seem to have decided --w/o supporting data-- that resources are more scarce.

That's not a problem because many people think that way, they've made up their minds and live their lives learning nothing while struggling to defend decisions made on impulse years ago. I say it's not a problem because this same humankind --goofy thinking patterns and all-- are somehow very successful at doing well in a world w/ plentiful resources.

Albeit complaining all the way.

 

[Pete in Panama]

How much ecological damage is the extraction and usage of those metals causing?
And there remains the decreasing topsoil and increasing aquifer depths. the decreasing number of insects, birds and dozens of other species, the deforestation and oceanic pollution, and, of course, climate change.

These are real changes in the planetary systems we depend on, all tied directly or indirectly to our massive population The human prosperity you point to is the result of ecologically dangerous industrial, extractive and agricultural practices.

Super! I'll take the fact that you're changing the subject away from resource scarcity and now bringing up environmental impact --that this means we agree that the resources are not in fact becoming scarce.

Interesting that you'd mention the ecological impacts of extracting the metals. Here in the Republic of Panama we're just winding down from a couple months of crisis where it appears that one of the biggest open pit copper mines is now being closed. The closing required wide spread conflict resulting in several deaths and an enormous loss to the public w/ closed roads, spoiling food, unemployment, and kids unable to go to school.

Now the mine looks like it's closing and the world (including the people here in Panama) will buy their copper from other mines. Business as usually along w/ an enormous cost to Panama, and whether the cost is justified is a separate issue. Sure, you can arbitrarily wave your arms and say it's a good idea but I prefer to think before making up my mind.

 

[Stevicus]

--and while you have not posted any info oil & gas prices you seem to have decided --w/o supporting data-- that resources are more scarce.

That's not a problem because many people think that way, they've made up their minds and live their lives learning nothing while struggling to defend decisions made on impulse years ago. I say it's not a problem because this same humankind --goofy thinking patterns and all-- are somehow very successful at doing well in a world w/ plentiful resources.

Albeit complaining all the way.

I didn't say anything about oil and gas prices or decided that they're scarce. I'm just saying that there's more to the overall equation than just those few metals on that chart you posted. A lot of people had the same "all is right with the world" attitude just prior to WW1 - and then got a rude awakening.

 

[Pete in Panama]

I didn't say anything about oil and gas...

huh, I was going with...

...I notice oil and gas aren't on the list...

We're going around in circles here, maybe we could give this a rest.

 

[Heyo]

Super! I'll take the fact that you're changing the subject away from resource scarcity and now bringing up environmental impact --that this means we agree that the resources are not in fact becoming scarce.

Environmental impact means also depletion of resources - natural resources. E.g. fish, we have all but fished the oceans empty and what remains is full of micro plastic. Insects, especially bees, are a natural resource as they do the pollination of our crops for us. Water and top soil are natural resources. And carbon sinks (forests mostly) are a natural resource.
Earth Overshoot Day - Wikipedia was on July 29th this year.
A healthy (for the eco system) human population is at around 2 billion, currently we are at 8 billion.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Environmental impact means also depletion of resources - natural resources...

sure, it can mean that, and it can also mean an increase in resources. Remember that in the past oxygen was a pollutant that some plants emitted and at the time it was caustic to the rest of the environment. What happened next was that life on the planet adapted to increased oxygen and now life has come to depend on a lot of oxygen in the atmosphere.

Most people don't automatically say that environmental impact only represents an inevitable exhaustion of resources. However, if you have your own definitions of words then we'll have to establish what the new set of definitions are and possibly even develop a new language. Either that or we can end our convo.

...A healthy (for the eco system) human population is at around 2 billion, currently we are at 8 billion.

That's your opinion. There are about 6 billion people in the world who might disagree.

Like, are you aware that the total biomass of life on earth is over 500 Gigatonnes while the biomass of humans is just 0.06Gt? Let's get a grip here. Humans are about one ten thousandth of the mass of life on the planet and you're saying there's too many of us?

Please.

 

[Valjean]

Super! I'll take the fact that you're changing the subject away from resource scarcity and now bringing up environmental impact --that this means we agree that the resources are not in fact becoming scarce.
Interesting that you'd mention the ecological impacts of extracting the metals. Here in the Republic of Panama we're just winding down from a couple months of crisis where it appears that one of the biggest open pit copper mines is now being closed. The closing required wide spread conflict resulting in several deaths and an enormous loss to the public w/ closed roads, spoiling food, unemployment, and kids unable to go to school.

Now the mine looks like it's closing and the world (including the people here in Panama) will buy their copper from other mines. Business as usually along w/ an enormous cost to Panama, and whether the cost is justified is a separate issue. Sure, you can arbitrarily wave your arms and say it's a good idea but I prefer to think before making up my mind.

You choose to be oblivious of the effects of ecological degradation. Your focus is on jobs, economic stability and the continuing access to resources by the rich nations of the world. Your focus is on people and the life you're familiar with. Even this is unwinding.

Overpopulation: The World’s Most Serious Problem - Science Abbey

Over 360,000 new babies are added to the world every day. In a world of short supply, where almost half the world lives in poverty, about 22,000 children die of poverty each day.

www.scienceabbey.com

Want to fight climate change? Have fewer children

Next best actions are selling your car, avoiding flights and going vegetarian, according to study into true impacts of different green lifestyle choices

www.theguardian.com

 

[Stevicus]

huh, I was going with...

We're going around in circles here, maybe we could give this a rest.

Noticing that they weren't on the chart you posted is not making a comment on their prices or perceived scarcity, which is what you said I was doing.

 

[Pete in Panama]

You choose to be oblivious of the effects of ecological degradation. Your focus is on jobs, economic stability and the continuing access to resources by the rich nations of the world. Your focus is on people and the life you're familiar with.

Interesting, I don't remember even mentioning:

• jobs
• economic stability
• the continuing access to resources by the rich nations of the world
• people and the life I'm familiar with

--in any of my posts here. All I ever wanted to clarify was this silly stuff about resources becoming scarce. If we can stick to that we'll be fine. While those other things you brought up are interesting too they're off topic.

 

[Pete in Panama]

Noticing that they weren't on the chart you posted is not making a comment on their prices or perceived scarcity, which is what you said I was doing.

You commented on the fact that the chart titled "Real commodity price index" did not include oil and gas. That may be where we went wrong. This topic is becoming tedious. Let's end it.

 

[Koldo]

Interesting, I don't remember even mentioning:

• jobs
• economic stability
• the continuing access to resources by the rich nations of the world
• people and the life I'm familiar with

--in any of my posts here. All I ever wanted to clarify was this silly stuff about resources becoming scarce. If we can stick to that we'll be fine. While those other things you brought up are interesting too they're off topic.

You did mention those things in your former post when you reported what is going on Panama (the cooper mine closure).