Biden "Israel killed civilians by USA bombs"

[ImmortalFlame]

Let me make it clear why it's darn near impossible to have an honest discussion

Because you refuse to have one. You ask questions, receive answers, then claim your question was never answered while refusing to answer anything yourself. You deliberately misrepresent people. You continually ignore the point being made in order to go back to talking points that have already been addressed. You selectively quote people while ignoring the vast majority of their arguments. And you constantly shift the conversation whenever it becomes obvious what the flaw in your argument is.

It's impossible to have an honest discussion with you, because you are not discussing honestly. The common factor in all those discussions you are having is YOU.

 

[metis]

I'm having trouble deciphering what yer trying to say here but what is clear is that you are often responding to stuff people aren’t actually saying. Then getting frustrated enough to place a completely level headed poster, making a completely level headed post, on ignore. You made similar assumptions about some things I said.

Whatever the implication...police are not responsible for tensions in the middle east nor the war crimes being carried out. What they are responsible for is attacking peaceful protesters with tear gas, rubber bullets and brute force. We are talking about law enforcement in the United States of America. Equipped with military grade apparatus and a legacy of over zealousness. Come on man.

I understand the position of long lasting loyalty to a marginalized group of people. I understand the desire to defend the citizens of Israel and the difficulty in seeing them as anything other than victims. Let alone war criminals. We are here. Palestinians are marginalized and innocent victims in Gaza are currently being slaughtered. It shouldn't be difficult to understand the desire to defend them. It's the same desire. A desire to stop the violence and hate.

Biden withholding weapons and placing conditions on military assistance isn't turning a back on an ally. It's putting a dog on a leash. It's not all or nothing. It can't be. But this is immeasurable destruction and times like these conjure reactions round the world. Thank goodness. We can't afford to let human perception skew things in favour of what we want to believe.

Believe what you want but what you and some others are ignoring is what happened on 10-7 and the numerous attacks by Hamas, plus the simple fact that the "head of the octopus" is Iran. All too many here simply do not understand the mandate from the Hadith and what the implications were and are. On 10-7, Israel was the victim, not the assaulter.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Believe what you want but what you and some others are ignoring is what happened on 10-7 and the numerous attacks by Hamas, plus the simple fact that the "head of the octopus" is Iran. All too many here simply do not understand the mandate from the Hadith and what the implications were and are. On 10-7, Israel was the victim, not the assaulter.

"Look, guys, what you're ignoring here is the fact that this specific bad thing happened to Israel, and it's really bad; and for that reason we need to ignore all of the numerous bad things Israel is currently doing and never suggest Israel is accountable for the consequences of its actions. It's a perfectly acceptable moral standard to suggest that countries that are victims of atrocities can do no wrong, and war crimes don't apply to them."

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Believe what you want but what you and some others are ignoring is what happened on 10-7 and the numerous attacks by Hamas, plus the simple fact that the "head of the octopus" is Iran. All too many here simply do not understand the mandate from the Hadith and what the implications were and are. On 10-7, Israel was the victim, not the assaulter.

Yeah, but that ignores the history of the conflict all the way back to the "birth" of nationalism and how it played out in the piece of land and what actors were or are present.

 

[metis]

Yeah, but that ignores the history of the conflict all the way back to the "birth" of nationalism and how it played out in the piece of land and what actors were or are present.

Actually, it doesn't, and I don't ignore the history-- I taught it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Actually, it doesn't, and I don't ignore the history.

Okay, so the idea of nationalism and the movement of Jews under Ottoman and then British rule and not self rule by the Palestians to the area had no relevance, because the same outcome would have happen if Palestains had self rule.

 

[metis]

"Look, guys, what you're ignoring here is the fact that this specific bad thing happened to Israel, and it's really bad; and for that reason we need to ignore all of the numerous bad things Israel is currently doing and never suggest Israel is accountable for the consequences of its actions. It's a perfectly acceptable moral standard to suggest that countries that are victims of atrocities can do no wrong, and war crimes don't apply to them."

I never said nor implied that. and for you to invent such a dishonest view of what I believe and where I'm supposedly coming from is the last thing I'll ever read from you.

 

[metis]

Okay, so the idea of nationalism and the movement of Jews under Ottoman and then British rule and not self rule by the Palestians to the area had no relevance, because the same outcome would have happen if Palestains had self rule.

I didn't say nor imply this either. Also, the area we call the "Middle East" prior to the European interventions and lines they drew is often difficult for many in the west to understand. Because of limited resources, especially water, the overall situation there was more "tribal", but I don't mean that in a negative way. Fighting over the control of resources was very common.

Matter of fact, the whole concept of what is a "Palestinian" was a very changing entity. There's a question as to where the name originated from [Philistines, Phoenicians. etc?], and even the commonly used name "Arab" didn't exist many centuries ago.

Thus, what we see happening with this Israeli/Hamas "war" is really nothing new as such conflicts go back as far as we can take the history there-- just different players. Consider the Sunni/Shi'i conflicts.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I didn't say nor imply this either. Also, the area we call the "Middle East" prior to the European interventions and lines they drew is often difficult for many in the west to understand. Because of limited resources, especially water, the overall situation there was more "tribal", but I don't mean that in a negative way. Fighting over the control of resources was very common.

Matter of fact, the whole concept of what is a "Palestinian" was a very changing entity. There's a question as to where the name originated from [Philistines, Phoenicians. etc?], and even the commonly used name "Arab" didn't exist many centuries ago.

Thus, what we see happening with this Israeli/Hamas "war" is really nothing new as such conflicts go back as far as we can take the history there-- just different players. Consider the Sunni/Shi'i conflicts.

Okay, so are you saying that the Palestians are not real as such and can't demand a state, because there aren't any actual Palestians? Or what?

 

[metis]

Okay, so are you saying that the Palestians are not real as such and can't demand a state, because there aren't any actual Palestians? Or what?

Or what.

BTW, there is basically a "Palestinian state" and its name is "Jordan", although it does also contain some other elements as well. Also, because Israel was frequently attacked after partition, they took over additional territory. Plus, more land was lost with those in the WB and Gaza Strip after the two Intifadas, which were a form of genocide as innocent civilians [Israeli] were targeted.

If this happened where you live, what would you do? If you and your family were frequently under attack with rockets hitting where you live, what we you do? Hamas keeps firing them, including just a couple of days ago, so would you try to stop them or just move out of the area?

Anyhow, these questions are rhetorical, so I'm just going to move on.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Or what.

BTW, there is basically a "Palestinian state" and its name is "Jordan", although it does also contain some other elements as well. Also, because Israel was frequently attacked after partition, they took over additional territory. Plus, more land was lost with those in the WB and Gaza Strip after the two Intifadas, which were a form of genocide as innocent civilians [Israeli] were targeted.

If this happened where you live, what would you do? If you and your family were frequently under attack with rockets hitting where you live, what we you do? Hamas keeps firing them, including just a couple of days ago, so would you try to stop them or just move out of the area?

Anyhow, these questions are rhetorical, so I'm just going to move on.

Yeah, because Israel had a right to a state, because they had that as such, due o in effect the colonial settlement and the gulity of the Western world.
I know my history. We as the Western world accepted that the Jews in effect stole land.

 

[metis]

Yeah, because Israel had a right to a state, because they had that as such, due o in effect the colonial settlement and the gulity of the Western world.
I know my history. We as the Western world accepted that the Jews in effect stole land.

Ah yes, "the Jews".

BTW, couldn't help but notice you didn't even try to answer the question I posed. It's easy to make decisions for others when you have no irons in the fire.

Have a nice day.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Ah yes, "the Jews".

BTW, couldn't help but notice you didn't even try to answer the question I posed. It's easy to make decisions for others when you have no irons in the fire.

Have a nice day.

Well, yes. They were and are Jews. That is a distinct cultural group. And they acted as such.

And for irons in the fire neither do you, unless you are a Jew or Palestain. Rather we both comment based on different understandings of how to rate the sistuation.

 

[Yerda]

Believe what you want but what you and some others are ignoring is what happened on 10-7 and the numerous attacks by Hamas, plus the simple fact that the "head of the octopus" is Iran. All too many here simply do not understand the mandate from the Hadith and what the implications were and are. On 10-7, Israel was the victim, not the assaulter.

Honest question. Do you want Israel to continue killing men, women and children by their tens of thousands?

EDIT: Forgot I was on ignore. Oh well.

 

[Revoltingest]

Honest question. Do you want Israel to continue killing men, women and children by their tens of thousands?

EDIT: Forgot I was on ignore. Oh well.

You too?
Join the club.
I'll bet he sang the Israeli settlers' praises
when they destroyed the food aid, &
burned the trucks. It was self defense.
It was Hamas's fault. And so on.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I never said nor implied that.

It's literally the implication of the post I quoted. Your argument against someone rightly pointing out that Israel can be legitimately criticised for their actions (in a manner that was incredibly even-handed and sympathetic, even) was basically just "7/10 and other bad things happened to Israel, though". If that's NOT the implication, then please explain why you thought that response was suitable.

and for you to invent such a dishonest view of what I believe and where I'm supposedly coming from is the last thing I'll ever read from you.

The irony is incredible. It's pretty obvious that the real reason you don't want to deal with my posts is because they expose you, and you feel ashamed and embarrassed. You're quick to bring up the numerous atrocities committed AGAINST Israel, but have never once acknowledged atrocities committed BY Israel. You seem to operate under this deranged notion that bad things being done to Israel means it cannot equally engage in bad behaviour, and the completely a-historical view that Israel has only ever been the victim, and never the perpetrator, of genocidal violence or ethnic cleansing. You believe violence against Israel justified war crimes against Palestinians, conveniently ignoring that this logic literally exonerates Hamas. You claim Israel was an innocent victim of antifadas, conveniently ignoring the ethnic cleansing of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.

You're a propagandist. Nothing more.

And, let's be honest, you were never reading my posts anyway. They exposed you too much for you to dare to take in any more than one or two sentences. Your last several responses are absolute proof of this.

 

[Revoltingest]

The irony is incredible. It's pretty obvious that the real reason you don't want to deal with my posts is because they expose you, and you feel ashamed and embarrassed.

When Christians support genocide, the cognitive
dissonance causes emotional woe, & resorting
to ad hominem attacks.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

When Christians support genocide, the cognitive
dissonance causes emotional woe, & resorting
to ad hominem attacks.

I think at this point it goes beyond cognitive dissonance, because that would imply they - at least, in part - genuinely oppose ethnic cleansing and war crimes. The kind of arguments and responses I have seen from these last few posts alone display an explicit and conscious willingness to engage in war crime denial. There's no other possible explanation.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think at this point it goes beyond cognitive dissonance, because that would imply they - at least, in part - genuinely oppose ethnic cleansing and war crimes.

They oppose it in principal, but not
in the case of Jews killing Muslims.
That's gotta be uncomfortable.

The kind of arguments and responses I have seen from these last few posts alone display an explicit and conscious willingness to engage in war crime denial. There's no other possible explanation.

They can't admit it, lest they realize
they're supporting genocide.

 

[Revoltingest]

So much for Genocide Joe's delaying shipment
of bombs to Israel. Now he's reverted to increasing
offensive weapon delivery.

https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/biden-moves-forward-on-1-billion-in-new-arms-for-israel-844b761c