Its not euthanasia, its suicide.

[Ignatius A]

To some of us, quality of life counts for something.
And dying with dignity on one's own terms.

As I said we live in a culture of death.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Perhaps they view their duty of care as involving the minimisation of suffering and also maybe respecting the wishes of people to make their own choices within law.

Allowing your patient to kill themselves doesn't minimize suffering, but creates even more.

Would you prefer she does it with a rope or a bag of painkillers?

My preference is that she not die at all, as she doesn't need to! Suicide is suicide, and I'm not going to play the game of making some methods seem "nicer" or more romantic than others. That's really quite gross.

How do you know this? The article doesn't detail her treatment history and the discussions she has had with doctors/counsellors etc.

The article implies her doctors have somehow coerced her into this but there's no quotation from the women saying anything like this.

Because any doctor that tells a depressed patient there's nothing more that can be done (i.e. there's no hope and you'll never recover) is simply lying and giving up on their patient. With mental illness, there's always hope for recovery - as long as you still live! Anyone who has spent much time interacting with the mental healthcare system can tell you that that attitude is not rare. It's not rare with other kinds of healthcare, either.

Doctors and clinicians are not gods with infinite knowledge. They can also not be trained that well. I've had bad therapists and doctors, and a horrible time with psych meds. People also can be misdiagnosed and also not receive the proper treatment (BPD needs different treatment than just depression, and then she also has autism and that needs its own types of treatment, etc.). It can get complicated and it's hard for most people to navigate these things.

The medical ethicist quoted in the article spoke about how often they see mental health patients quickly given up on by their doctors. This isn't some secret. Borderline Personality Disorder alone is highly stigmatized, including by doctors, and often hard to treat. 10% of people with BPD kill themselves, which is extremely high. However, there's still forms of therapy that can help those with BPD, but many clinicians aren't trained in how to deal with it.

 

[SkepticThinker]

As I said we live in a culture of death.

Huh?

This was in response to, "To some of us, quality of life counts for something.
And dying with dignity on one's own terms."

Are you saying that quality of life and dying with some dignity are examples of a "culture of death?" How so?

 

[Twilight Hue]

I don't know if it is a failure or not. I know nothing about this case. Neither do any of you who all are VERY QUICK with your judgements.
I haven't said anything at all about me thinking it is or is not a failure.

What is bizarre is how quick the lot of you are to judge this thing while knowing literally nothing about it.

What I do know is that euthanasia isn't taken lightly. Not in the Netherlands and not in Belgium. What I do know is that there's a whole procedure before the proceedings are cleared and I also know this procedure is quite detailed and has quite strict criteria. I happen to personally knew somebody who went through it. It took 8 months and plenty of interviews and examinations and second and third opinions and hearings and.... on and on. I have no reason at all to doubt that this procedure wasn't properly followed. To call it a "failure", imo anyways, would mean that this procedure wasn't properly followed in this particular case.

It certainly could be the case that it wasn't properly followed, but at present I have seen no indication whatsoever that it wasn't. Neither does the article mention such at all.

So yeah.... not quite sure what else to say here.

As I said to @Saint Frankenstein : all I have done here is point out to people who quicly they jumped on the judgemental band wagon, calling the doctors "failures" and insulting both the patient and her mom, claiming medical malpractice and what-not.... while knowing literally nothing about the case.

I do know enough to discern between terminal and chronic.

This is a chronic condition, not a terminal one. Making this a bonofide suicide and not euthanasia.

 

[McBell]

I do know enough to discern between terminal and chronic.

This is a chronic condition, not a terminal one. Making this a bonofide suicide and not euthanasia.

Where did you get your medical degree?
When did you talk with her?
When did you review her medical records?

 

[Rival]

Where did you get your medical degree?
When did you talk with her?
When did you review her medical records?

Do you need a medical degree to tell when someone has committed suicide?

Does that sound reasonable, really?

 

[Ignatius A]

Huh?

This was in response to, "To some of us, quality of life counts for something.
And dying with dignity on one's own terms."

Are you saying that quality of life and dying with some dignity are examples of a "culture of death?" How so?

You're confused? Why?
You have never heard people say they should be free to abort babies because having a baby would affect their quality of life? Or that the baby would have to grow up in a bad situation.

Dying with dignity isnt the same as suicide and euthanasia

 

[SkepticThinker]

You're confused? Why?

Perhaps if you answered my question ....

You have never heard people say they should be free to abort babies because having a baby would affect their quality of life? Or that the baby would have to grow up in a bad situation.

That's a completely different topic of discussion. We're talking about quality of life of a person considering euthanasia.

Dying with dignity isnt the same as suicide and euthanasia

It's got a lot to do with euthanasia and it's availability. Especially for those with terminal illnesses who are suffering and would like to die with some dignity.

 

[Ignatius A]

Perhaps if you answered my question ....

That's a completely different topic of discussion. We're talking about quality of life of a person considering euthanasia.

It's got a lot to do with euthanasia and it's availability.

You don't like the answer. Not the same at all

So you have heard the "quality of life" argument for killing babies you just want to pretend it's a different rationale. It's the same reasoning to the same end.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You don't like the answer. Not the same at all

So you have heard the "quality of life" argument for killing babies you just want to pretend it's a different rationale. It's the same reason to the same end.

My question was, "Are you saying that quality of life and dying with some dignity are examples of a "culture of death?" How so?"

Your response was off-topic. And this is not the same rationale as the one you're claiming.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Where did you get your medical degree?
When did you talk with her?
When did you review her medical records?

You don't need nor require any degree to see poor medicine in action. Doctors are not the only ones who have a brain you know.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Do you need a medical degree to tell when someone has committed suicide?

Does that sound reasonable, really?

Some people simply cannot think for themselves what is good or bad without appealing to a professional in their mind to make a decision for them.

 

[Vinayaka]

If people want to do that, then it's their business. It's sad, it sucks, it hurts their loved ones, but its still their choice.

Sometimes loved ones would be incredibly relieved to not have to watch their loved one spend the rest of their days in total misery.

 

[Rival]

Sometimes loved ones would be incredibly relieved to not have to watch their loved one spend the rest of their days in total misery.

So if one of my relatives is severely depressed, do I suggest suicide?

If I can't suggest it, the person oughtn't really be thinking it either.

 

[libre]

Not a doctor but I think that 'There’s nothing more we can do for you. It’s never gonna get any better' indicates malpractice.
Doctors are not oracles.

On the other hand, I am not against MAID and think there is a solid argument that it saves lives in Canada because it requires patients to exhaust treatment methods that many would not consider or bother with if they felt they needed to take matters into their own hands.

 

[Rival]

Not a doctor but I think that 'There’s nothing more we can do for you. It’s never gonna get any better' indicates malpractice.
Doctors are not oracles.

On the other hand, I am not against MAID and think there is a solid argument that it saves lives in Canada because it requires patients to exhaust treatment methods that many would not consider or bother with if they felt they needed to take matters into their own hands.

I think one of its main issues is that by nature it only targets mentally ill people and people with physical disabilities. It seems borderline eugenicist to me to suggest that if these people can't find help or can't seem to fit into society one way or the other, they are free to do away with themselves. It will see a whole lot of these people killing themselves. In that way it seems worse than forced sterilisation or asylum imprisonment, because they are apparently making the decision themselves after being told there's nothing more to be done.

 

[McBell]

Do you need a medical degree to tell when someone has committed suicide?

Does that sound reasonable, really?

Not that I am aware.

Now all you needs do is tie your question to the context of the post you quoted.

You know, that someone is making all manner of claims based absolutely no information concerning the case at hand.

 

[Rival]

Not that I am aware.

Now all you needs do is tie your question to the context of the post you quoted.

You know, that someone is making all manner of claims based absolutely no information concerning the case at hand.

The case at hand is very clear.

A young woman wants to kill herself and the state is going to help her.

She has no terminal illness, is not facing end of life care, and is in a relationship.

That's all I need to know.

 

[McBell]

You don't need nor require any degree to see poor medicine in action. Doctors are not the only ones who have a brain you know.

You are making all manner of claims about her, her doctors, her mother, the council, etc. with absolutely no information.

I notice you completely ignored my post asking when you met her, talked to her, reviewed her medical records, etc.
And you still have not addressed the actual law involved, even though I have linked it multiple times.

 

[McBell]

The case at hand is very clear.

Not really, but do go on....

A young woman wants to kill herself and the state is going to help her.

Yes.
She has followed all the rules and regulations, jumped through all the red tape.
Even got approval from the council.

She has no terminal illness, is not facing end of life care, and is in a relationship.

And?

That's all I need to know.

Ah.
Neverminded then.
You are merely trying to shove your beliefs down everyone else throats.

I am not big on dealing with zealots.

Have a nice day.