Zoroastrianism: Baha'ism: What is meant by a person called "manifestation" of God?

[paarsurrey]

Zoroastrianism: Baha'ism: What is meant by a person called "manifestation" of God?
Any thoughts are welcome from anybody Zoroastrian non-Zoroastrian. Baha’i or non-Baha’i religious or non-religious, everybody is welcome for comments on the thread, please.

Regards

 

[Kirran]

Why are you lumping Zoroastrianism in with the Baha'i Faith? Quite distinct traditions.

 

[Vinayaka]

Why are you lumping Zoroastrianism in with the Baha'i Faith? Quite distinct traditions.

It's a Baha'a thing.

 

[LuisDantas]

Abrahamic traditions tend to prefer clear diferentiations between the human and the divine, while Dharmic traditions often do not.

The Bahai Faith seems to have attempted to bridge that gap of understanding by presenting the idea of people who are understood to be manifestations of God. In some ways they resemble Prophets, in others Bodhisattvas or Saints.

What that means exactly is not clear to me either, and I suspect that it is to a considerable degree left for the individual Bahai to decide.

Which is fine by me, although I do worry a bit about expectations that others should or would acknowledge and agree with their calls on those matters.

 

[paarsurrey]

Abrahamic traditions tend to prefer clear diferentiations between the human and the divine, while Dharmic traditions often do not.

The Bahai Faith seems to have attempted to bridge that gap of understanding by presenting the idea of people who are understood to be manifestations of God. In some ways they resemble Prophets, in others Bodhisattvas or Saints.

What that means exactly is not clear to me either, and I suspect that it is to a considerable degree left for the individual Bahai to decide.

Which is fine by me, although I do worry a bit about expectations that others should or would acknowledge and agree with their calls on those matters.

I want to know it clearly. Please
Regards

 

[LuisDantas]

I want to know it clearly. Please
Regards

I am really not sure of what you mean.

It is IMO not possible to know the difference between human and divine at all clearly, for several very solid reasons. Not least of them, because the divine seems to me not to exist except as a name for the transcendental potential of sentient beings.

 

[Vinayaka]

I want to know it clearly. Please
Regards

If you want to know clearly about 'manifestations' just read the basics about the Bahai faith, Paar. It's one of their core doctrines, but not shared by any other faith.

 

[paarsurrey]

If you want to know clearly about 'manifestations' just read the basics about the Bahai faith, Paar. It's one of their core doctrines, but not shared by any other faith.

I am interested in the words of Baha'u'llah in his core books, not in the thoughts of the Baha`is or Bahaism. Please
Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

I am interested in the words of Baha'u'llah in his core books, not in the thoughts of the Baha`is or Bahaism. Please
Regards

I think they're available for all to read. I'm sure our Bahai friends would be more than delighted to point you to them.

 

[danieldemol]

Zoroastrianism: Baha'ism: What is meant by a person called "manifestation" of God?
Any thoughts are welcome from anybody Zoroastrian non-Zoroastrian. Baha’i or non-Baha’i religious or non-religious, everybody is welcome for comments on the thread, please.

Regards

In the Baha'i sacred writings the term "Manifestation of God" is explained as follows;

The Manifestation of God is compared to a pure mirror. In the same way a mirror reflects the attributes of the sun such as heat and light, but the sun does not dwell to descend in the mirror, the attributes of God such as love, mercy, justice etc are reflected in the pure personage of the Manifestation of God, but God does not descend to dwell in the mirror of His holy Personage.

If we were to hear the radio say, "I'm Joe blogs on the morning show" we know the radio is not claiming to literally be Joe blogs, rather the radio does not assert it's independant existence, but rather relays the message as it is transmitted without mentioning itself.

Thus Baha'u'llah explains in the Kitabiqan,
..."Thus in moments in which these Essences of being1 were deeply immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of divine mysteries, they claimed their utterance to be the Voice of divinity, the Call of God Himself. Were the eye of discernment to be opened, it would recognize that in this very state, they have considered themselves utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of Him Who is the All-Pervading, the Incorruptible. Methinks, they have regarded themselves as utter nothingness, and deemed their mention in that Court an act of blasphemy. For the slightest whispering of self, within such a Court, is an evidence of self-assertion and independent existence"...

...'Thus, He hath revealed: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine!”2 And also He saith: “In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.'...3


1 The Messengers of God
2 Quran 8:17
3 Quran 48:10

Kind regards

 

[paarsurrey]

In the Baha'i sacred writings the term "Manifestation of God" is explained as follows;

The Manifestation of God is compared to a pure mirror. In the same way a mirror reflects the attributes of the sun such as heat and light, but the sun does not dwell to descend in the mirror, the attributes of God such as love, mercy, justice etc are reflected in the pure personage of the Manifestation of God, but God does not descend to dwell in the mirror of His holy Personage.

If we were to hear the radio say, "I'm Joe blogs on the morning show" we know the radio is not claiming to literally be Joe blogs, rather the radio does not assert it's independant existence, but rather relays the message as it is transmitted without mentioning itself.

Thus Baha'u'llah explains in the Kitabiqan,
..."Thus in moments in which these Essences of being1 were deeply immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of divine mysteries, they claimed their utterance to be the Voice of divinity, the Call of God Himself. Were the eye of discernment to be opened, it would recognize that in this very state, they have considered themselves utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of Him Who is the All-Pervading, the Incorruptible. Methinks, they have regarded themselves as utter nothingness, and deemed their mention in that Court an act of blasphemy. For the slightest whispering of self, within such a Court, is an evidence of self-assertion and independent existence"...

...'Thus, He hath revealed: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine!”2 And also He saith: “In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.'...3

1 The Messengers of God
2 Quran 8:17
3 Quran 48:10

Kind regards

"1 The Messengers of God
2 Quran 8:17
3 Quran 48:10"

Will one kindly quote the above first verse Quran 8:17, with the context verses, some preceding and some following , for correct understanding? Please
Regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

I am interested in the words of Baha'u'llah in his core books, not in the thoughts of the Baha`is or Bahaism. Please
Regards

Here a couple of links, one from an official Baha'i site, another from Wikipedia to get you started.

Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe

Manifestation of God - Wikipedia

All the best.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
I am interested in the words of Baha'u'llah in his core books, not in the thoughts of the Baha`is or Bahaism. Please
Regards

Here a couple of links, one from an official Baha'i site, another from Wikipedia to get you started.

Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe

Manifestation of God - Wikipedia

All the best.

"Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe"

As I stated earlier, I am interested in the words of Baha'ullah, not in as to what the Bahais believe.
Why the Bahais are hesitant to quote from Baha'ullah or from Quran? I cannot understand,please.
Regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

paarsurrey said: ↑
I am interested in the words of Baha'u'llah in his core books, not in the thoughts of the Baha`is or Bahaism. Please
Regards

"Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe"

As I stated earlier, I am interested in the words of Baha'ullah, not in as to what the Bahais believe.
Why the Bahais are hesitant to quote from Baha'ullah or from Quran? I cannot understand,please.
Regards

The links provided both have extensive quotations and references from authoritative Baha'i writings. You wanted specifically the words of Baha'u'llah? Here they are:

The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, “His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all,” hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 46-49

It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold Them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of Being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendor! Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: “I am the return of all the Prophets,” He, verily, speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact, the truth of which is firmly established….

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 50-56

The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Page 213

"The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples. They are like unto leaven which leaveneth the world of being, and constitute the animating force through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Through them the clouds rain their bounty upon men, and the earth bringeth forth its fruits. All things must needs have a cause, a motive power, an animating principle. These souls and symbols of detachment have provided, and will continue to provide, the supreme moving impulse in the world of being."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 155-158

If you wish to discuss the Quran from a Baha'i perspective you are best to talk to Baha'is from a Muslim background such as @InvestigateTruth

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Zoroastrianism: Baha'ism: What is meant by a person called "manifestation" of God?
Any thoughts are welcome from anybody Zoroastrian non-Zoroastrian. Baha’i or non-Baha’i religious or non-religious, everybody is welcome for comments on the thread, please.

Regards

I quote from Bahai Scriptures:


"God is pure perfection and the creation is absolute imperfection. For God to descend into the degrees of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; rather, His manifestation, dawning, and effulgence are even as the appearance of the sun in a clear, bright, and polished mirror.
....The Perfect Man, however, is even as a clear mirror in which the Sun of Truth is revealed and manifested in the fullness of its attributes and perfections."

"All the perfections, bounties, and splendours of the one true God are plainly visible in the realities of His Holy Manifestations, even as the light of the sun is fully reflected with all its perfections and bounties in a clear and spotless mirror. And if it be said that the mirrors are the manifestations of the sun and the dawning-places of the daystar of the world, this is not meant to imply that the sun has descended from the heights of its sanctity or has become embodied in the mirror, or that that limitless Reality has been confined to this visible plane. God forbid!"

- Abdulbaha, Some answered questions

 

[paarsurrey]

I quote from Bahai Scriptures:


"God is pure perfection and the creation is absolute imperfection. For God to descend into the degrees of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; rather, His manifestation, dawning, and effulgence are even as the appearance of the sun in a clear, bright, and polished mirror.
....The Perfect Man, however, is even as a clear mirror in which the Sun of Truth is revealed and manifested in the fullness of its attributes and perfections."

"All the perfections, bounties, and splendours of the one true God are plainly visible in the realities of His Holy Manifestations, even as the light of the sun is fully reflected with all its perfections and bounties in a clear and spotless mirror. And if it be said that the mirrors are the manifestations of the sun and the dawning-places of the daystar of the world, this is not meant to imply that the sun has descended from the heights of its sanctity or has become embodied in the mirror, or that that limitless Reality has been confined to this visible plane. God forbid!"

- Abdulbaha, Some answered questions

Please quote from Bahaullah's own words .
Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Please quote from Bahaullah's own words .
Regards

As you may know, Bahaullah appointed Abdulbaha as the infallible interpreter of the verses of Bahaullah. Bahaullah wrote that after Himself, His followers must learn from Abdulbaha about interpretations of the verses. So, when Bahais want to learn, what Bahaullah means by the term 'Manifestation', we must learn from Abdulbaha.

So, i believe what I quoted is sufficient. But I will quote from Bahaullah, just for you, anyway.

"These sanctified Mirrors, these Daysprings of ancient glory are one and all the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the light that can never fade. Even as He hath said: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and them; except that they are Thy servants, and are created of Thee.” This is the significance of the tradition:
“I am He, Himself, and He is I, myself.”

 

[paarsurrey]

As you may know, Bahaullah appointed Abdulbaha as the infallible interpreter of the verses of Bahaullah. Bahaullah wrote that after Himself, His followers must learn from Abdulbaha about interpretations of the verses. So, when Bahais want to learn, what Bahaullah means by the term 'Manifestation', we must learn from Abdulbaha.

That could be relevant for the Bahais, but I am not a Bahai, as one knows.
Thanks for quoting from Bahaullah, however, as requested. Please
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

As you may know, Bahaullah appointed Abdulbaha as the infallible interpreter of the verses of Bahaullah. Bahaullah wrote that after Himself, His followers must learn from Abdulbaha about interpretations of the verses. So, when Bahais want to learn, what Bahaullah means by the term 'Manifestation', we must learn from Abdulbaha.

So, i believe what I quoted is sufficient. But I will quote from Bahaullah, just for you, anyway.

"These sanctified Mirrors, these Daysprings of ancient glory are one and all the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the light that can never fade. Even as He* hath said: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee** and them***; except that they are Thy servants, and are created of Thee.” This is the significance of the tradition:
“I am He*, Himself, and He is I**, myself.”

"Even as He* hath said: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee** and them***; except that they are Thy servants, and are created of Thee.” This is the significance of the tradition:
“I am He*, Himself, and He is I**, myself.”


Some little questions just to understand the passage:

1. *Who is exactly mentioned with the pronoun "He" in the above passage, please.
2. **Who is exactly mentioned with the pronoun "Thee" in the above passage, please.
3. ***Who is exactly mentioned with the pronoun "Them" in the above passage, please.
4. *Who is exactly mentioned with the pronoun "He" in the above passage, please.
5. **Who is exactly mentioned with the pronoun "I" in the above passage, please.

Kindly give one's own understanding of the passage on the above little questions. Please
Anybody, please
Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"

"Even as He* hath said: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee** and them***; except that they are Thy servants, and are created of Thee.” This is the significance of the tradition:
“I am He*, Himself, and He is I**, myself.”


Some little questions just to understand the passage:

1. *Who is exactly mentioned with the pronoun "He" in the above passage, please.
2. **Who is exactly mentioned with the pronoun "Thee" in the above passage, please.
3. ***Who is exactly mentioned with the pronoun "Them" in the above passage, please.
4. *Who is exactly mentioned with the pronoun "He" in the above passage, please.
5. **Who is exactly mentioned with the pronoun "I" in the above passage, please.

Kindly give one's own understanding of the passage on the above little questions. Please
Anybody, please
Regards

This is the significance of the tradition:
“I am He*, Himself, and He is I**, myself.”


Some little questions just to understand the passage:

1. *Who is exactly mentioned with the pronoun "He" in the above passage, please.
2. **Who is exactly mentioned with the pronoun "Thee" in the above passage, please.
3. ***Who is exactly mentioned with the pronoun "Them" in the above passage, please.
4. *Who is exactly mentioned with the pronoun "He" in the above passage, please.
5. **Who is exactly mentioned with the pronoun "I" in the above passage, please.

Kindly give one's own understanding of the passage on the above little questions. Please
Anybody, please
Regards

The first one, is part of Prayer, in Shia Traditions, which is for the Prayer of Rajab. It is believed to be a divinely inspired prayer. I think it is attributed to a Shia Imam:


اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَسْأَلُكَ بِمَعانِي جَمِيعِ ما يَدْعُوكَ بِهِ وُلاةُ أَمْرِكَ، الْمَأْمُونُونَ عَلى‌ سِرِّكَ، الْمُسْتَسِرُّونَ‌[2] بِأَمْرِكَ، الْواصِفُونَ لِقُدْرَتِكَ، الْمُعْلِنُونَ لِعَظَمَتِكَ.

أَسْأَلُكَ‌[3] بِما نَطَقَ فِيهِمْ مِنْ مَشِيَّتِكَ، فَجَعَلْتَهُمْ مَعادِنَ لِكَلِماتِكَ، وَ أَرْكاناً لِتَوْحِيدِكَ، وَ آياتِكَ وَ مَقاماتِكَ، الَّتِي لا تَعْطِيلَ لَها فِي كُلِّ مَكانٍ، يَعْرِفُكَ بِها مَنْ عَرَفَكَ، لا فَرْقَ بَيْنَكَ وَ بَيْنَها إِلَّا أَنَّهُمْ عِبادُكَ وَ خَلْقُكَ، فَتْقُها[4] و رَتْقُها[5] بِيَدِكَ، بَدْؤُها مِنْكَ وَ عَوْدُها إِلَيْكَ، أَعْضادٌ وَ أَشْهادٌ، وَ مُناةٌ وَ أَزْوادٌ، وَ حَفَظَةٌ وَ رُوَّادٌ، فَبِهِمْ مَلأْتَ سَماءَكَ وَ أَرْضَكَ حَتّى‌ ظَهَرَ [أَنْ‌][6] لا إِلهَ إِلَّا أَنْتَ.

The Prayer begins, by 'O My God'.
.....
.....
“There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee(O My God) and them(Your Messengers); except that they are Thy servants, and are created of Thee.”


The second Tradition is attributed to Muhammad:

“I am He(God), Himself, and He is I(Muhammad)**, myself.”

I believe the first Tradition's Quranic Evidence is 4:150,

"Verily, those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allah and His Messengers saying, "We believe in some but reject others," and wish to adopt a way in between. Those are the disbelievers..."