Zionophobia

[Yeshe Dawa]

I'm not sure. It'll take something major to bring a long term solution to the world. As it is now, the Palestinians will never stop resisting against the existence of Israel, and Israel will never stop defending itself. Only when the Palestinians officially cease their eternal struggle against the existence of Israel should statehood for Palestinians be seriously talked about.


That would be nice, but that still requires peace first.

Would you invite a homicidal maniac determined to kill you and your family to live in your home? Would you force them against their will to live in your home?

If they want to become Israeli citizens and accept the reality of the State of Israel, by all means let them.

If they refuse because "Israel is the enemy", let them relocate to an Arab state.

If they want to stay and fight, let them stay and fight. And if they lose, anyone who calls it ethnic cleansing or genocide or a massacre can go to hell.

Never. Give the Palestinians living in Gaza to Egypt? Sure. But give the land to Egypt? Absolutely not. Israel defended itself against a hostile Egypt in 67, and in the course of winning that war took control of Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula. To make peace with Egypt, Israel gave back Sinai. And it worked. And in 2005, Israel completely withdrew from Gaza to make peace with at least the Palestinians living in Gaza. That didn't work.

There is nothing that distinguishes a Palestinian Arab from any other type of Arab. Before Israel came along, they were more than happy to think of themselves as Southern Syrians. Most of the countries in the middle east were artificially divided up by Europeans after WWI anyway... including lebanon, jordan, syria, iraq, etc... and the British Mandate of Palestine was to be, in part, a Jewish state. And then the Arabs lopped off 80% of that land and it became transjordan (Jordan). What remained should have gone to the Jewish homeland. But then the UN partitioned that remaining land, giving the Jews a raw deal, but they said yes. They hadn't displaced any Arabs living there. They settled into vacant/abandoned and purchased (at outrageously unfair prices) land from Arab landowners. The Jewish presence actually enhanced the standard of living of their Arab neighbors. But the Arab hatred of the Jew got the better of them, and spurred various acts of aggression towards the Jews, both new arrivals, and Jewish communities which existed in the land for over two thousand years. And when the Jews dared to defend themselves and/or retaliate, it got blown up by the Arabs as atrocities and massacres, which they later came to admit were nothing of the sort. Which brings us to the creation of the state of Israel...

A few select passages from Israel's Declaration of Independence (emphasis added by me) :

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land.



Less than a day later, no less than 9 Arab armies descended upon Israel to destroy it.

Israel has been defending its existence ever since.

And the Palestinian refugees created by the Arab states that warred with Israel won't be accepted by those Arab states because to do so would indicate that they failed to destroy the Jewish presence in the middle east. And they keep those refugees living in third world conditions so they can say "Look at what Israel is doing to these Palestinians"... so that Israel will concede... and concede... and concede... until there is nothing left.



Take a look at what Wikipedia has to say on the matter:


I can find more quotes if you'd like, but the Arab world doesn't want the Palestinians because it will mean they ultimately failed to rid the middle east of Israel.

Hi Poisonshady313!

I sincerely thank you for such a complete response. I feel that I have a much better view of the Israeli side of the conflict. It is truly a complicated situation.

Peace and blessings,
Yeshe
:flower2:

 

[kai]

Are you aware most Jordanian leaders agree that "Jordan is Palestine"? Have you seen their flags? If you ask teh Jordanians, they wouldn't want to lose their potential pawns to taking the rest of Israel by letting them live comfortable lives in Jordan. What's the size of Jordan compared to Israel. What is the difference in the "Demographic balance" between Jordanians and "Palestinians"?

Why wasn't Jordan required to make a Palestinian state in the 19 years they ruled the West Bank? What would be the problems involved of "upsetting" this "Demographic balance" in Jordan? Why is it not a problem to upset the "Demographic Balance" in Israel?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/political-debates/118798-jordan-palestine.html

I am not agruing with you! The "Palestinian " identity , the refugee camps all serve the purpose of continuing the Arab Israeli war. Most Arab countries hate Israel more than they "love" the palestinians, i mean they are hardly treated as brothers are they.

 

[Levite]

Jews are not supposed to have a country. They're supposed to settle down all over the world and be a light unto nations. That's the orthodox position.

That is not the Orthodox position. That is the position of one tiny Haredi (fanatical ultra-Orthodox) sect called the Neturei Karta, and one Hasidic sect from Satmar.

To call anti-Zionism "the Orthodox position" is like calling al-Qaeda "traditional Islam."

 

[Shermana]

I am not agruing with you! The "Palestinian " identity , the refugee camps all serve the purpose of continuing the Arab Israeli war. Most Arab countries hate Israel more than they "love" the palestinians, i mean they are hardly treated as brothers are they.

If your post was meant to be sarcastic, I apologize.

I believe Jordan would be well served with a dramatic population doubling, they have much potential resources and agricultural, the Palestinian labor could help build a giant irrigation system to their dry East.

 

[kai]

If your post was meant to be sarcastic, I apologize.

I believe Jordan would be well served with a dramatic population doubling, they have much potential resources and agricultural, the Palestinian labor could help build a giant irrigation system to their dry East.

That may be so! but doubling it with a considerable amount of people who consider themselves not to be Jordanian would be problematic--no

 

[Shermana]

Jordan IS Palestine. Jordanians are Palestinians. The difference between Jordanians and Palestinians is nothing. Shall we compare it to the difference between Palestinians and Jews?

 

[kai]

Jordan IS Palestine. Jordanians are Palestinians. The difference between Jordanians and Palestinians is nothing. Shall we compare it to the difference between Palestinians and Jews?

Thats your opinion and one shared by many , but not Arab opinion. and i think that argument has passed its sell by date, Pan Arabism didn't really get off the ground did it. Palestinians are now an entity.

 

[Shermana]

Thats your opinion and one shared by many , but not Arab opinion. and i think that argument has passed its sell by date, Pan Arabism didn't really get off the ground did it. Palestinians are now an entity.

If it's not Arab opinion, what is it? Wrong? It's like Arab opinion that Jews are responsible for the world's evils. If the Arab opinion was allowed to dictate the situation, Israel's existence wouldn't be a continuing question for them.

History of Jordan, Jordan as Palestine & Two states for two people, Jordan must contribute

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Jordan is very much afraid that it will be declared THE PALESTINIAN STATE, [/FONT]

If the Arab opinion says there's an actual difference in the actual matters between a Jordanian and Palestinian ethnicity issue, one should weigh that opinion against the idea of sending the Refugees to the 22% of "Palestine" on Jewish-held land instead.

From the Jihadi's perspective, building up a strong and prosperous Palestinian state in Jordan could be more effective in their aims.

On second thought, Maybe Israel shouldn't do it.....maybe better to send them to the 20 other Arab countries and not organize under such freedom. Israel would have to have watch on their borders. Sending the Palestinians to Jordan could make them a new minor regional power allied +with Iran.

 

[England my lionheart]

Jordan IS Palestine. Jordanians are Palestinians. The difference between Jordanians and Palestinians is nothing. Shall we compare it to the difference between Palestinians and Jews?

Personally i agree with you,it would make more sense for them to be absorbed into the surrounding countries but from an outside perspective the Palestinians are a displaced people,nobody wants them,especially not the Arab/Muslim countries,and this reality is'nt going to go away anytime soon.

 

[Barcode]

I am against Zionism (in theory) so am I anti-Jew?

 

[Poisonshady313]

I am against Zionism (in theory) so am I anti-Jew?

That depends on what you believe Zionism is, and why you're against it.

 

[Desert Snake]

The same sort of Jew hatred that inspired accusations that Jews are Christ killers, that Jews kidnap Christian babies and use their blood to bake Matzah for Passover, etc... is the same sort of Jew hatred that inspired a Russian document known as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, an account of a fictional meeting of Jewish leaders that "prove" the Jewish plot to take over the world.

While it is true that this document has been identified as nothing but a fraud and a forgery, written and disseminated for the purpose of stoking the flames of antisemitism, many Arab governments (including but not limited to those of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, and Hamas) insist that the document is a genuine description of a real plot of the Jews to take over the world.

Meanwhile, people who so blindly and virulently hate the Jews often mask their hatred as being hatred not of Jews, but of "Zionists". They insist "accusations of antisemitism are empty because they don't understand the difference between criticisms of the Israeli government and statements against Jews."

Problem is, the people who are busy hating Jews and/or Israelis very rarely make a distinction... and in many cases, from their point of view, there is no distinction.

When they think of Zionism, they think "protocols of the elders of Zion", so they very much misunderstand what Zionism really is, and stand by their hatred of it.

What it boils down to is, antisemitism and anti Zionism are one in the same...

except in modern times it's not so fashionable to admit to hating Jews, so to appeal to the rest of the world, they call it a hatred of the policies of the government of Israel.

And since Israel has refused to roll over and die, and they have a sovereign state, and a strong military, and an excellent economy, and the Palestinians have none of those things, the Palestinians have the sympathy of the western world because they're seen as the underdog next to a big, bad, brutal Israel who just wants to grab land and deny Palestinians their self determination.

It's all a load of crap, but that's the way a lot of people see it. And so when they figure all they're doing is criticizing Israeli government policies, they have no idea that they're really feeding into the antisemitic propaganda of a people who hate Jews and wish for the rest of the world to do the same.

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[Poisonshady313]

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I'm surprised at you. You posted that same exact post before in this very thread... to which I said:

I partially reconsider that statement in light of posts by jay and levite. However, I stand by my assertion that a great deal of antizionism is indeed rooted in antisemitism.

To which you replied:

O.K. I'm not going to argue that.

I'm not sure what you think you're trying to accomplish by rolling your eyes at my statement again.

 

[Desert Snake]

I'm surprised at you. You posted that same exact post before in this very thread... to which I said:




To which you replied:




I'm not sure what you think you're trying to accomplish by rolling your eyes at my statement again.

I felt that bringing up the basic viewpoints you've presented in this thread was applicable to the question.......you know, to avoid arguments based on semantics.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I felt that bringing up the basic viewpoints you've presented in this thread was applicable to the question.......you know, to avoid arguments based on semantics.

My view point expressed in that first post of mine in this thread deals very specifically with people who have an illogical fear or hatred of Zionism based on a misunderstanding of what Zionism really is.

I don't know what Barcode believes Zionism is or why he's against it.

Which is why I said:

That depends on what you believe Zionism is, and why you're against it.

I'm not about to make assumptions about why a person claims to be anti-Zionism when they claim, in a very general manner, that they are against Zionism

 

[Barcode]

That depends on what you believe Zionism is, and why you're against it.

I against any system whether political or philosophical that has nationalistic roots and believes that its self-worth is greater-than-the-whole. Although I believe every nation has a right to choose their soverignty and political status, I believe that in the case of 1939 and the Jewish Diaspora, I believe this movement came at the expense of others and that this particular philosophy didn't consider the "other." I personally believe that this philosophy validates land confiscation (even though it was unanimously decided by other countries which in itself is quite shady in my opinion) validates implicit and explicit racism, and it is utterly wrong in my opinion.

The planet earth belongs to all of its inhabitants but to impose a philosophy and confiscating land through socio-religious philosophy is inherently wrong. This doesn't mean I am against Jews I am against their reason as to why they should be in Israel at the expense of those already living there. It would be extreme to say "anti-zionism, is anti-semitic" because as I see it the ideas of Zionism were rooted in Jewish social politics during experiences of discrimination in Europe. To say I am anti-semitic because I am anti-zionist is to say I am anti-american because I am anti-republican.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I against any system whether political or philosophical that has nationalistic roots and believes that its self-worth is greater-than-the-whole. Although I believe every nation has a right to choose their soverignty and political status, I believe that in the case of 1939 and the Jewish Diaspora, I believe this movement came at the expense of others and that this particular philosophy didn't consider the "other." I personally believe that this philosophy validates land confiscation (even though it was unanimously decided by other countries which in itself is quite shady in my opinion) validates implicit and explicit racism, and it is utterly wrong in my opinion.

The planet earth belongs to all of its inhabitants but to impose a philosophy and confiscating land through socio-religious philosophy is inherently wrong. This doesn't mean I am against Jews I am against their reason as to why they should be in Israel at the expense of those already living there. It would be extreme to say "anti-zionism, is anti-semitic" because as I see it the ideas of Zionism were rooted in Jewish social politics during experiences of discrimination in Europe. To say I am anti-semitic because I am anti-zionist is to say I am anti-american because I am anti-republican.

ok then. I can see that you're not antisemitic.

Question: What land was confiscated prior to 48? What land was confiscated due to a socio-religious philosophy, as opposed to land that may have been taken as the result of winning a war that they didn't start?

David Ben Gurion said:

We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

What sort of land confiscation based on a socio-religious philosophy occurred to make you believe Ben Gurion was either lying or mistaken?

 

[Shermana]

I against any system whether political or philosophical that has nationalistic roots and believes that its self-worth is greater-than-the-whole. Although I believe every nation has a right to choose their soverignty and political status, I believe that in the case of 1939 and the Jewish Diaspora, I believe this movement came at the expense of others and that this particular philosophy didn't consider the "other." I personally believe that this philosophy validates land confiscation (even though it was unanimously decided by other countries which in itself is quite shady in my opinion) validates implicit and explicit racism, and it is utterly wrong in my opinion.

The planet earth belongs to all of its inhabitants but to impose a philosophy and confiscating land through socio-religious philosophy is inherently wrong. This doesn't mean I am against Jews I am against their reason as to why they should be in Israel at the expense of those already living there. It would be extreme to say "anti-zionism, is anti-semitic" because as I see it the ideas of Zionism were rooted in Jewish social politics during experiences of discrimination in Europe. To say I am anti-semitic because I am anti-zionist is to say I am anti-american because I am anti-republican.

At what point is the defender supposed to freely relinquish any territory he claimed in a battle where the enemy attacked first? The Jews bought their land at high prices, starting from the Ottoman period. The Arabs refused to work out a deal, and they attacked. Even before 1967 when Israel "struck first", Egyptian and Syrian forces were skirmishing with Israel. Egypt and Jordan refused to grant Palestinians any rights or statehood for the 19 years they owned Gaza and Judea and Samaria, Israel gives its Arab citizens better lives than almost any other Arab country. If anything, if you are against Nationalistic Totalitarian regimes, you should hope for Israel to decapitate the Tyrannies.

If your concern against Zionism is due to "Racism" please direct your intention to some of the most racist rhetoric on Earth, the pan-Arabists.

You should apply your same logic against Jordan, which has already called itself Palestine, to allow full immigration of Palestinians.

 

[JacobEzra.]

do people view Zionists unfairly.

Conspiracy theories like he Zionist rule the world, are nothing but carry on's of the anti-semitic conspiracies of the old days.

 

[JacobEzra.]

At what point is the defender supposed to freely relinquish any territory he claimed in a battle where the enemy attacked first? The Jews bought their land at high prices, starting from the Ottoman period. The Arabs refused to work out a deal, and they attacked. Even before 1967 when Israel "struck first", Egyptian and Syrian forces were skirmishing with Israel. Egypt and Jordan refused to grant Palestinians any rights or statehood for the 19 years they owned Gaza and Judea and Samaria, Israel gives its Arab citizens better lives than almost any other Arab country. If anything, if you are against Nationalistic Totalitarian regimes, you should hope for Israel to decapitate the Tyrannies.

If your concern against Zionism is due to "Racism" please direct your intention to some of the most racist rhetoric on Earth, the pan-Arabists.

You should apply your same logic against Jordan, which has already called itself Palestine, to allow full immigration of Palestinians.

Does any of this justify the mistreatment of arabs in Palestine?