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Featured Zero equals infinity says the mystic

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by dfnj, Sep 17, 2018.

  1. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    To the scientist zero never equals infinity and division by zero is "undefined". To the mystic, zero equals infinity and is the source of all creativity and possibility in the Universe. Our Big Bang is the result of a star collapsing to a black hole in a previously existing space-time dimension.

    The problem with some people's way of thinking is they believe objectivity is objective. It isn't. All "good" objectivity is determined by subjective judgments. People who are devout in their belief science is the only worthy approach to resolving our big questions around our own existence are simply deluding themselves.

    The idea of science and the scientific method have limitations. No belief system is perfect. Every belief system is built on a set of assumptions and axioms that are considered to be true without any proof. If you dig hard enough there will find the axioms inherent in every belief system. And in every case, these axioms, once questioned, will put the belief system in doubt.

    Being able to question the validity of the axioms of any belief systems is a property and limitation of human language none of us can escape. We either choose to accept these limitations, which are extremely uncomfortable for most people, or we choose to think our own dogma as the only right dogma. If we choose dogma above all else, then people who do not share the same axioms as we do will seem to be insane in their thinking. This is human nature.

    To the mystic, zero equals infinity. To the scientist, zero never equals infinity.

    It most of the discussions on these threads the most basic axiom the theists have is "God exists". To the people who choose science or atheism over religion, the theists are irrational and insane. And the theists think people who do not choose to accept the divine nature of existence are damned to a life of misery empty of any real meaning. The two ends will never meet.
     
  2. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    The Mystic ponders reality. The Scientist has to validate reality. The mystic is free to say whatever they want, the scientist isn't.
     
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  3. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    In math concepts like infinities and zero are part of math as the descriptive tool box primarily used by science. Philosophies and theologies may describe things differently. Such as the difference between the philosophical/theological absolute nothing, and the Quantum Nothing of science.

    There is not a wall between philosophy and science, but there are differences on how they consider some things like math zero and infinities. Actually science is not realy concerned with where infinites explain the limits our physical existence.
     
    #3 shunyadragon, Sep 17, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
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  4. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    I would say... not exactly. They're talking about different things.
     
  5. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva
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    This modern mystic would consider a mystic who said such a thing to be slightly off his/her/its meds. They are two different concepts and to pretend they are the same is silly and or misguided.
     
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  6. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    I'd say the mystic experiences things and talks about them with analogies. Some mystics may make the mistake of thinking those analogies in concrete terms in areas they do not really fit. Lots of us luckily aren't like that.

    I would say the pondering reality is more of a Philosopher's or Theologian's job. The results... I'd say usually less than worth the effort in an objective sense.
     
  7. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
     
  8. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    True, a mystic probably spends more time pondering their subconscious insights than reality.
     
  9. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    I'd call "pondering subconscious insights" less than useful. Even the meditators starting out call that the monkey mind. Something rather to ignore than waste time pondering about.

    Of course, all my mystical experiences are fully conscious experienced with a clear mind. If I wanted to ponder my subconscious more than reality, I wonder if I would not be an insane man by definition or at the very least, an addict.
     
  10. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Libertarian Capitalist Atheist Baconist
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    I don't begrudge mystics having goofy beliefs.
    But I'd be wary of their designing bridges, airplanes or any
    dangerous product which requires a keen sense of reality.
     
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  11. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    IMO the subconscious mind is the source of those mystical experiences. While you maybe consciously aware of the experience, that doesn't mean your a consciously aware of the subconscious' involvement.
     
  12. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    From what I've seen and read about mystics they seem very adroit at picking up a concept, or even a cool sounding term, and affixing some kind of arcane meaning to it, and then weaving all kinds of otherworldly, supernatural, occult, metaphysical, etc. bull**** around it. All of which goes into making them appear more mystical than the next mystic. In main, they're fairly harmless if not taken seriously.

    .
     
    #12 Skwim, Sep 17, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
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  13. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    On the same basis as any thinking process has it's source in the subconscious, or do you think the subconscious is somehow "more" on top than say when we are writing to each other on the forum.

    Since you seem to have a specific idea about mystical experiences, what do you think the experiences are, or rather how would you describe a mystical experience?
     
  14. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    And we don't begrudge yours.

    Reasonable people would dismiss anyone who confused the two instead. The two being laws of physics and something else that you assume we're confusing things with.
     
  15. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Build that straw man like a pro.
     
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  16. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Sometimes, a number of my replies are impulse. Kind of the first thing that "pops" into my mind. Especially if one has been over the same arguments numerous times.

    Depends on the individuals. Sometimes it a feeling, like feeling a presence in he room with you. Or it could be a conversation with a being you are not consciously aware of being in control of. Could be audio where you actually hear a voice, some even have a visual experience where one is awake/conscious but has a vision. Some mystical experiences occur as dreams where just about anything goes. In normal consciousness the subconscious mind is constantly communicating. Sometimes it's difficult for the conscious mind to know the difference between reality and something created by the subconscious mind since the subconscious mind uses the same process for both. A mystic experience can feel very, very real to the person experiencing it.
     
  17. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Do you think there are posts where the subconscious does not play a role?

    Doesn't sound much like a mystical experience to me, except for the last one. All of those others sound more like things most people have when they're being slightly off, confused and tired, perhaps under influence of some mind-numbing drugs, maybe anaesthesia wearing off. Those were things that teens used to scare each other sitting near a campfire. Just apply a bit of reason and they go away.

    Ever heard something like this "it's too hard to put into words, so I'm using this awkward analogy that only other folks who've experienced the same can relate to" and you'll be closer to describing a mystic experience.
     
  18. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    Also note that the original posts "mystic" is in direct contrast to most mystics I've talked to on this forum.
     
  19. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    No role at all, no. It is after all our interface to the outside world. However I do believe we can take conscious control over how we respond.

    I may have conflated spiritual experiences a bit.

    Experiences that at the time you understood perfectly, but when you tried to convey the experience you couldn't find the right words to describe the impact of the experience. An experience that changed your perspective in a way that you couldn't or didn't consciously think of or grasp prior to the experience?
     
  20. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Libertarian Capitalist Atheist Baconist
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