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[TransmutingSoul]

New Does the soul have any substance that you can point to and say "There...there it is"? I believe it has no substance that can be observed directly, yet can be recognized only through realization.

Your thoughts?

By the fruits the soul can be known.

Thus when we see the virtues and morals being practiced, we observe essence or substance of the human soul being practiced.

There is also 5 levels of soul/spirit.

Regards Tony

 

[osgart]

I would say the soul is substance with depth of meaning inherent in the substance. The soul exists much like the space around you exists. You can't touch it but its there. I would say there are levels of interaction that existent things have with normal matter and energy. There is no way to detect it with normal matter, but its inferred to exist. Otherwise I would be a materialist and have to call it an illusion.

Meaning has cause and effect within it. Thus memory and understanding are real properties. Thoughts trigger actions in the normal material world.

 

[blü 2]

In an experiment reported in 1907, more famous than technically accomplished, medical practitioner Duncan MacDougall of Massachusetts set out to weigh six of his dying patients with the best precision he could just before and just after the moment of [apparent] death. Wikipedia tells us:

One of the patients lost weight but then put the weight back on, and two of the other patients registered a loss of weight at death but a few minutes later lost even more weight. One of the patients lost "three-fourths of an ounce" (21.3 grams) in weight, coinciding with the time of death [whence the movie "21 Grams"]. MacDougall disregarded the results of another patient on the grounds the scales were "not finely adjusted", and discounted the results of another as the patient died while the equipment was still being calibrated.
​

MacDougall didn't think he'd established that the soul had mass: rather he thought he'd taken steps in that direction but that more work was required.

Nothing further has been accomplished since then. Rather, there is still no satisfactory definition of, or evidence for, a real soul, one having objective existence.

If the soul is not real then the only other thing way for it to exist is as something purely conceptual / imaginary.

 

[SalixIncendium]

By the fruits the soul can be known.

Thus when we see the virtues and morals being practiced, we observe essence or substance of the human soul being practiced.

There is also 5 levels of soul/spirit.

Regards Tony

As I see it, if one can observe these, then one must be something else other than "soul."

Can you see now, @Salty Booger, why I have an aversion to the word?

 

[SalixIncendium]

In an experiment reported in 1907, more famous than technically accomplished, medical practitioner Duncan MacDougall of Massachusetts set out to weigh six of his dying patients with the best precision he could just before and just after the moment of [apparent] death. Wikipedia tells us:

One of the patients lost weight but then put the weight back on, and two of the other patients registered a loss of weight at death but a few minutes later lost even more weight. One of the patients lost "three-fourths of an ounce" (21.3 grams) in weight, coinciding with the time of death [whence the movie "21 Grams"]. MacDougall disregarded the results of another patient on the grounds the scales were "not finely adjusted", and discounted the results of another as the patient died while the equipment was still being calibrated.
​

MacDougall didn't think he'd established that the soul had mass: rather he thought he'd taken steps in that direction but that more work was required.

Nothing further has been accomplished since then. Rather, there is still no satisfactory definition of, or evidence for, a real soul, one having objective existence.

If the soul is not real then the only other thing way for it to exist is as something purely conceptual / imaginary.

Interesting. This real life experiment must have been an inspiration for Dan Brown. I swear I read a very similar experiment in one of his novels.

Or maybe I'm just suffering from the Mandela Effect...

 

[Salty Booger]

Can you see now, @Salty Booger, why I have an aversion to the word?

I'm not here to judge.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

If your "soul" had substance and you were able observe it and say, "There it is," who would it be that was observing it?

From the mouths of just about any believer in "soul" that I have spoken to, they ascribe it particular roles/functions/future-endeavors that disqualify it from being the "you" experienced day-in and day-out here on Earth - and not just because it is said to be completely separate from the corporeal body. So, I would say that if this "soul" can perceive things, then it very well could observe "you" - because it is decidedly NOT "you" - again, from all accounts I have heard by believers in such a thing, this is the conclusion I necessarily must come to. I don't believe in such a thing myself, so I am not to the one to say.

Can the sun shine upon itself?

I would argue that it can, and does so constantly.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

In an experiment reported in 1907, more famous than technically accomplished, medical practitioner Duncan MacDougall of Massachusetts set out to weigh six of his dying patients with the best precision he could just before and just after the moment of [apparent] death. Wikipedia tells us:

One of the patients lost weight but then put the weight back on, and two of the other patients registered a loss of weight at death but a few minutes later lost even more weight. One of the patients lost "three-fourths of an ounce" (21.3 grams) in weight, coinciding with the time of death [whence the movie "21 Grams"]. MacDougall disregarded the results of another patient on the grounds the scales were "not finely adjusted", and discounted the results of another as the patient died while the equipment was still being calibrated.
​

MacDougall didn't think he'd established that the soul had mass: rather he thought he'd taken steps in that direction but that more work was required.

Nothing further has been accomplished since then. Rather, there is still no satisfactory definition of, or evidence for, a real soul, one having objective existence.

If the soul is not real then the only other thing way for it to exist is as something purely conceptual / imaginary.

One would hope the experimenter had controlled for temperature and humidity of the air. I would think that several billion particles of moisture landing on a corpse, or evaporating off of it could easily have an impact if you are truly measuring with such great deal of precision, as assumed.

 

[blü 2]

One would hope the experimenter had controlled for temperature and humidity of the air. I would think that several billion particles of moisture landing on a corpse, or evaporating off of it could easily have an impact if you are truly measuring with such great deal of precision, as assumed.

Yes, indeed. MacDougall thought his experiments were a start, not definitive, and they weren't set up to check alterations in the total weight of body+defined local environment. As well, his scales were accurate only to a fifth of an ounce / 5.6 grams.

More >here<.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As I see it, if one can observe these, then one must be something else other than "soul."

Can you see now, @Salty Booger, why I have an aversion to the word?

I do not see it that way. The soul without education reverts to animal instincts, that is obsevable.

A Soul educated by the higher level of spirit can choose to portray those morals and virtues and that is obsevable.

The higher virtues are not of this world. That is why the Bible said we must be born again.

Regards Tony

 

[SalixIncendium]

I would argue that it can, and does so constantly.

I wouldn't. Especially not in a non-debate forum.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I wouldn't. Especially not in a non-debate forum.

Here, I'll just state it then: the sun can and does shine on "itself" constantly. Hear that everyone? Just an FYI here. I was thinking about making a new thread specifically about it, but that seemed a bit much.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Here, I'll just state it then: the sun can and does shine on "itself" constantly. Hear that everyone? Just an FYI here. I was thinking about making a new thread specifically about it, but that seemed a bit much.

Nothing worth discussing in the interest of education and knowledge is ever a bit much. Here ya go: Can the Sun Shine Upon Itself?

 

[Clara Tea]

Does the soul have any substance that you can point to and say "There...there it is"? I believe it has no substance that can be observed directly, yet can be recognized only through realization.
View attachment 46612
Photo by Perchek Industrie from Pexels

God gave divine psychic sight to the strongest psychics in the world prior to W. Bush's war in Iraq. This prompted them to go online and use their psychic powers and google searches to seek out other psychics of God. God wanted his psychics to warn the world of the devastating things to come (things that we are now experiencing...homeless, economic disaster, COVID, etc). Things were so bad that many couldn't bear to look at things as they exist today (and worse in the future), so they didn't see the whole story, and merely hoped that things wouldn't get too bad and cause too much suffering. The suffering was a result of the United States attacking Babylon, Iraq (God was worried about all those deaths and a torture camp).

President W. Bush had covertly continued CIA Project MKULTRA, using psychics to spy on various groups that he deemed subversive. So, when W. Bush paid his misguided psychics to spy on the prophets of God, it became obvious that they had invaded their thoughts. At first, they tried to push away the other psychics, but that didn't work. I explained to them that they could not push away psychic energy, since it can penetrate virtually anything (except, of course, the psychic vortex generated around heaven that keeps out intruders and snoopers, and the psychic vortex of hell which keeps in demons. I told them that obviously psychic energy cannot be kept out by electromagnetic or gravitational forces since those are constrained to the speed of light, and psychic energy can travel forward and backward in time and transcend the luminal speed limit. They were horribly irked and worried about the espionage, so I told them that they could bend the energy away from them, and that they could send wrong info back to the source (to discredit them). They can spin the energy and that would cause the psychics on the other end to get dizzy and vomit. This is what ultimately shut down the restarted MKULTRA program during the W. Bush administration.

David Moorehouse wrote books about being a psychic warrior, and how he was tortured in sensory deprivation tanks to do the bidding of MKULTRA. Those government psychics should have done a reading on their own participation with the government, because they could have easily concluded that their psychic gifts from God were being misused and maltreated.

The soul is also called a spirit (or if earthbound, called a ghost or apparition). It is not the same as an echo of former life. Almost all humans have souls (given to them by God), and so that is a tiny piece of God inside of them. Most people are wowed by statements of Jesus about having part of God in him, but the fact is, all souls are a part of God and almost all people have a soul or part of God. Jesus, of course, had far more power than a normal human, which makes me wonder if he had more than one soul.

Since most people have souls, and souls possess psychic power, most people are able to do amazing things, and they don't even know it. Most people can see future events (dejavu). They can project themselves to other locations, just as the psychics of God used to do when they were playing around with each other on their time off (they visited each other). They also played finger games on the internet, feeling each other's fingers wiggle on the screen, and telling the other how many fingers they were holding up.

The psychics of God sensed deep evil in president W. Bush, so some were afraid of reading his thoughts and sitting in at Oval Office meetings (unseen, as merely a spirit). Yet, others dared to get close to the source of so much evil.

You ask about the substance of the soul. I ask about the substance of matter....it has none. Quantum mechanics shows that matter is merely trapped energy. Virtually everything is vibration. Nothing truly has substance. Yet, nothing is truly without substance (it is like the wave-particle duality).

 

[loverofhumanity]

Does the soul have any substance that you can point to and say "There...there it is"? I believe it has no substance that can be observed directly, yet can be recognized only through realization.

Your thoughts?

View attachment 46612
Photo by Perchek Industrie from Pexels

Here is an answer direct from our Writings.


The soul is not a combination of elements, it is not composed of many atoms, it is of one indivisible substance and therefore eternal. It is entirely out of the order of the physical creation; it is immortal!

Scientific philosophy has demonstrated that a simple element (‘simple’ meaning ‘not composed’) is indestructible, eternal. The soul, not being a composition of elements, is, in character, as a simple element, and therefore cannot cease to exist. (Bahá’í Writings)

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Does the soul have any substance that you can point to and say "There...there it is"? I believe it has no substance that can be observed directly, yet can be recognized only through realization. Your thoughts?

Did Adam have any substance ? because all of Adam was a 'living soul'. Adam did Not have a soul, Adam did Not possess a soul, Adam was a soul.
Adam did Not come to life until his God breathed the ' breath of life ' into life-less Adam - Genesis 2:7
Thus, Adam went from non-life, to life, and simply returned back to non-life.
No post-mortem life for sinner Adam just ' returning ' to where he started: the dust of the ground - Genesis 3:19

If we had an immortal soul No one would need a resurrection for the living do Not need a resurrection.
Even sinner Satan is Not death proof because Jesus will ' destroy' sinner Satan - Hebrews 2:14
Sinner Satan ends up in the symbolic ' second death ' of Revelation 21:8

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Because the thing from which we observe the world cannot be grasped (the soul).

Well, yes. But nothing follows from that other than there is a limit to human understanding.

 

[Salty Booger]

Well, yes. But nothing follows from that other than there is a limit to human understanding.

The mind is limited.

 

[Brian2]

Did Adam have any substance ? because all of Adam was a 'living soul'. Adam did Not have a soul, Adam did Not possess a soul, Adam was a soul.

Adam did Not come to life until his God breathed the ' breath of life ' into life-less Adam - Genesis 2:7

Which part of Adam was the living soul, the physical body or the spirit that God breathed into him or both together?

Thus, Adam went from non-life, to life, and simply returned back to non-life.
No post-mortem life for sinner Adam just ' returning ' to where he started: the dust of the ground - Genesis 3:19

We all return to dust because the part of us which was made is dust. The part of us which was not made and which came from God is the spirit of life in us. That part does not return to the dust. This is the part that does not die at the death of the body. Matt 10:28
Jesus told the Sadducees (who did not believe in spirit or the resurrection) that they were badly mistaken and that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all alive. (Mark 12:24-27) This shows not only that we have a spirit part but that a resurrection is possible, because if they were not existing then they could not be resurrected at all.

If we had an immortal soul No one would need a resurrection for the living do Not need a resurrection.

If we are going to be humans on the earth we need a resurrection of our body which has been redeemed by Jesus blood. We are put back together as complete humans with both our life (the spirit part) and our body redeemed.
Romans 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Which part of Adam was the living soul, the physical body or the spirit that God breathed into him or both together?



We all return to dust because the part of us which was made is dust. The part of us which was not made and which came from God is the spirit of life in us. That part does not return to the dust. This is the part that does not die at the death of the body. Matt 10:28
Jesus told the Sadducees (who did not believe in spirit or the resurrection) that they were badly mistaken and that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were all alive. (Mark 12:24-27) This shows not only that we have a spirit part but that a resurrection is possible, because if they were not existing then they could not be resurrected at all.



If we are going to be humans on the earth we need a resurrection of our body which has been redeemed by Jesus blood. We are put back together as complete humans with both our life (the spirit part) and our body redeemed.
Romans 8:23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

That is your belief. It is not mine.