Zen without Buddhism?

[mystic64]

Define Zen.

Zen/Chan is a sect of Buddhism so in that sense no, you cannot separate them.

But in the 20th and 21st century Zen has taken on a different and separate meaning, much of which, IMHO, is a misconception. However based on that misconception Zen is not Buddhism. There is an awful lot of "non-buddhist" mindfulness training out there.... but where did it come from in the first place....

But then if one listens to the Buddha..... what isn't Buddhism.

When one has reached a mind state where their mind is just on and awake without any thought processes happening or needing to happen, they have then broken the third Dharma Seal and they are then "free" of the automated cycle of death and rebirth. Zen is just a technique that used to accomplish that mind state. Most Buddhist masters kind of have their own versions of how to achieve this mind state and Zen is another version/technique of how it can be done.

 

[Wu Wei]

When one has reached a mind state where their mind is just on and awake without any thought processes happening or needing to happen, they have then broken the third Dharma Seal and they are then "free" of the automated cycle of death and rebirth. Zen is just a technique that used to accomplish that mind state. Most Buddhist masters kind of have their own versions of how to achieve this mind state and Zen is another version/technique of how it can be done.

Actually Zen is a sect which is part of the Mahāyāna school of Buddhism

 

[mystic64]

Yes the mind divides, and in some ways that is its job, so as to live our life as a so called human being, its only when we forget that we are truly One with the Source that we then suffer.

I think that we learn this from the folks around us as infants and as very young children. I think that babies are pretty much winging it until the folks that are around them tell them how things have to be, both by their words and their example. If what they teach is functional, then you will be for the most part all right. If what they teach is not functional, then for the most part things are not going to be all right. With there always being some exceptions.

 

[mystic64]

Actually Zen is a sect which is part of the Mahāyāna school of Buddhism

Yes it is.

 

[Straw Dog]

Yes I agree with that statement, that's why I don't call my self a Buddhist.

The greater context of what he's saying should probably be taken into account. Here is my understanding. Yes, ultimately, the path is faulty and temporary. However, relatively speaking, a degree of effort along the path is needed before one is ready to go beyond it. Otherwise, it can easily become a form of ego-jitsu: "Look at me! I'm already a Buddha! I don't need Buddhism. I'm better than those other people who are still in Buddhism." Understanding conceptually that one is Buddha is not the same as realizing it directly through practice. If you think that you are a Buddha, then you are not. It's the difference between practicing and just playing. We cannot really get 'in the zone' and play well without a lot of practice first. Do you catch my drift?

 

[psychoslice]

I think that we learn this from the folks around us as infants and as very young children. I think that babies are pretty much winging it until the folks that are around them tell them how things have to be, both by their words and their example. If what they teach is functional, then you will be for the most part all right. If what they teach is not functional, then for the most part things are not going to be all right. With there always being some exceptions.

Yes that is just what I say, but babies have to be conditioned in some form, for how could they ever live a life together, we have to play the game of separation so as to live here, its only when we forget that we are One in all that we suffer, we have to lose our so called innocents to live in what seems to be duality, this is what the story of Adam and Eve is about.

 

[psychoslice]

The greater context of what he's saying should probably be taken into account. Here is my understanding. Yes, ultimately, the path is faulty and temporary. However, relatively speaking, a degree of effort along the path is needed before one is ready to go beyond it. Otherwise, it can easily become a form of ego-jitsu: "Look at me! I'm already a Buddha! I don't need Buddhism. I'm better than those other people who are still in Buddhism." Understanding conceptually that one is Buddha is not the same as realizing it directly through practice. If you think that you are a Buddha, then you are not. It's the difference between practicing and just playing. We cannot really get 'in the zone' and play well without a lot of practice first. Do you catch my drift?

I as the mind body organism am not the Buddha, the Buddha is my true inner nature, as it is with everyone, some like to spend their whole life searching for Enlightenment, but that is only because of the ego not wanting to be destroyed. The whole thing is that we are all ready there, its just our minds that don't see this, Buddhism can take us away from our true inner being, or it can help to ignite our true inner Being, either way, what will happen is up to the Source, you and I as the mind body can do nothing, if Enlightenment is there, then its there, if we are under grace then we will Awaken, if not we will never Awaken.

 

[mystic64]

Yes that is just what I say, but babies have to be conditioned in some form, for how could they ever live a life together, we have to play the game of separation so as to live here, its only when we forget that we are One in all that we suffer, we have to lose our so called innocents to live in what seems to be duality, this is what the story of Adam and Eve is about.

And again Psychoslice, you have hit the nail on the head (in my opinion). So may I ask you something? How about being in both worlds, so to speak, at the same time. What if one could play the game of separation but not be attached to it? If I lived in a Buddhist monastry or some other place that allowed me to be safe from the world, then I could focus to the exclusion of all else on the higher qualities of things and just let the world go around me. But I don't live in that kind of environment, I have to face the world and deal with it. I know what it is like on the other side of the third Dharma Seal and I spend a lot of time there, but I can't be in both that world and this world at the same time. Life has been a hard haul for me because I am a demon, I like being one, and I am good at it . But at the sametime it is a dead end and can't possibilly unltimately go anywhere. And now after a lifetime of meditation and introspection I am in the world of innocents, oneness, and no conceptual workings and in this world as a demon that is trying to cut back, but not both at the same time. Psychoslice you are an advanced mind, how do you live in this world as a innocent in a state of oneness? What/who protects you?

 

[mystic64]

The greater context of what he's saying should probably be taken into account. Here is my understanding. Yes, ultimately, the path is faulty and temporary. However, relatively speaking, a degree of effort along the path is needed before one is ready to go beyond it. Otherwise, it can easily become a form of ego-jitsu: "Look at me! I'm already a Buddha! I don't need Buddhism. I'm better than those other people who are still in Buddhism." Understanding conceptually that one is Buddha is not the same as realizing it directly through practice. If you think that you are a Buddha, then you are not. It's the difference between practicing and just playing. We cannot really get 'in the zone' and play well without a lot of practice first. Do you catch my drift?

I sure catch your drift ! "By your works you shall be known." "The proof is in the pudding." No pudding, no proof.

 

[psychoslice]

And again Psychoslice, you have hit the nail on the head (in my opinion). So may I ask you something? How about being in both worlds, so to speak, at the same time. What if one could play the game of separation but not be attached to it? If I lived in a Buddhist monastry or some other place that allowed me to be safe from the world, then I could focus to the exclusion of all else on the higher qualities of things and just let the world go around me. But I don't live in that kind of environment, I have to face the world and deal with it. I know what it is like on the other side of the third Dharma Seal and I spend a lot of time there, but I can't be in both that world and this world at the same time. Life has been a hard haul for me because I am a demon, I like being one, and I am good at it . But at the sametime it is a dead end and can't possibilly unltimately go anywhere. And now after a lifetime of meditation and introspection I am in the world of innocents, oneness, and no conceptual workings and in this world as a demon that is trying to cut back, but not both at the same time. Psychoslice you are an advanced mind, how do you live in this world as a innocent in a state of oneness? What/who protects you?

Hi, it really doesn't matter where you live, you are still at the same place as everyone else, there is no need to live in a monastery, many times this can keep one away from discovering their true Self, they can become comfortable with their rituals and doctrines, where as to be Enlightened we need to let these go. No, I haven't got an advanced mind, I am simply who I am, nothing really has changed in my life, we are all One within the Source of Consciousness, we are all playing our own game, its only when we don't realize that it is a game that we suffer.

Protection, well I don't really need protection, the only thing that can truly harm me is my mind, or ego, and that is only on the mind body organism level, but because there is the realization that I am not the mind body, then there is much less fear of wanting to be protected. Those who do harm to others in the society, are nothing more than ignorant, but at the same time they had no other option, that is the way they are programmed, the same as you and I, we as the mind body organism will do just what our programming will allow us to do. When one becomes Enlightened, then the program is altered, we still do what we do, but now we are aware of what we do, we are no longer hypnotised by our former programming.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think that we learn this from the folks around us as infants and as very young children. I think that babies are pretty much winging it until the folks that are around them tell them how things have to be, both by their words and their example. If what they teach is functional, then you will be for the most part all right. If what they teach is not functional, then for the most part things are not going to be all right. With there always being some exceptions.

I think we are a lot like computers in this respect. GIGO.

Yet still I think it's prudent to consider environmental and biological factors as well as it affects body as well as mind as one developes into the person he/she is.

 

[Banjankri]

However, relatively speaking, a degree of effort along the path is needed before one is ready to go beyond it.

Only because everyone already has a path he follows with effort.

Understanding conceptually that one is Buddha is not the same as realizing it directly through practice.

There is really no difference between understanding and realizing.

If you think that you are a Buddha, then you are not.

You always are a Buddha. The problem lies not in thinking this or that, but in dualistic perspective, which comes from ignorance about your own being. Ignorance, we hear it a lot, but what does it really mean? When you look closely, disregarding content, you will notice that every experience implies one thing, your presence. "I am", as a sound in your head, does not differ in this aspect from anything else. Everything is, and always will be, a way of implying your presence.
There is this koan, which points to it, without directly revealing it: "Bring me the essence of the temple bell sound."
There are practices leading to this realization, but they are often mistaken for the realization itself. If you think that not thinking about anything is It, then It is destroyed by thinking. If you think it's somewhere out there, you are tricked into chasing a ghost. But if you realize that everything is there just to manifest your being, duality is nowhere to be found. Since everything has one and the same purpose, your presence, there is nothing special to chase after. This is why path is faulty, because it created duality.
Here is a piece of Dzogchen text, which talks about It directly:

"I determine all events and meanings.
Because no objects exist which are not me,
You are beyond perspective or meditation.
You are beyond charismatic activity to be sought.
Because there is no state other than me,
You are beyond stages to cultivate.
[...]
Because there is nowhere to go apart from me,
One is beyond paths to traverse.
Because all buddhas, sentient beings, appearances,
Existence, environments and inhabitants
Arise from the quintessential state of pure and total presence,
One is beyond duality.
Because self-arising pristine awareness is already established,
One is beyond justifying it; the transmission of the great
teaching provides a direct entry into understanding.
Because all phenomena do not exist apart from me,
One is beyond duality, I fashion everything."
-Longchenpa

(Spoiler alert)
You are the essence of the temple bell sound.

 

[mystic64]

Hi, it really doesn't matter where you live, you are still at the same place as everyone else, there is no need to live in a monastery, many times this can keep one away from discovering their true Self, they can become comfortable with their rituals and doctrines, where as to be Enlightened we need to let these go. No, I haven't got an advanced mind, I am simply who I am, nothing really has changed in my life, we are all One within the Source of Consciousness, we are all playing our own game, its only when we don't realize that it is a game that we suffer.

Protection, well I don't really need protection, the only thing that can truly harm me is my mind, or ego, and that is only on the mind body organism level, but because there is the realization that I am not the mind body, then there is much less fear of wanting to be protected. Those who do harm to others in the society, are nothing more than ignorant, but at the same time they had no other option, that is the way they are programmed, the same as you and I, we as the mind body organism will do just what our programming will allow us to do. When one becomes Enlightened, then the program is altered, we still do what we do, but now we are aware of what we do, we are no longer hypnotised by our former programming.

I sure do not disagree with you, I just thought that I would get your input on some of the things that I have been tossing around in my mind. Just for the sake of discussion (and curiosity ) , what would you think is the relationship between the concept of "true self" and the concept of breaking the third Dharma Seal?

 

[mystic64]

I think we are a lot like computers in this respect. GIGO.

Yet still I think it's prudent to consider environmental and biological factors as well as it affects body as well as mind as one developes into the person he/she is.

I agree with environmental and biological factors. And if one removes religion, then we are all just biological robots. What seems to be interesting though is that Buddha seems to have indicated that there is a reality that is beyond that. At least to me . There are others that do maintain that nothing can exist beyond the robotic mind and that enlightenment is just a more sophisticated level of the robotic mind. I suppose that one would have to go out there and have a look at things with understanding and then come back and demonstrate the validity of this other reality. The problem is that 99% of the folks that do do this leave and do not come back. And the 1% that do come back are either worshipped or are persecuted for witchcraft or sorcery.

The whole thing makes one want to go back to their action/adventure video game where they can kick some tush . Of course having a worthy opponent in an intellectual message board reality can also be fun . Robotic mind against robotic mind! Way to much fun! But I am not exactly sure where the "Zen" is in that though .

 

[Twilight Hue]

I agree with environmental and biological factors. And if one removes religion, then we are all just biological robots. What seems to be interesting though is that Buddha seems to have indicated that there is a reality that is beyond that. At least to me . There are others that do maintain that nothing can exist beyond the robotic mind and that enlightenment is just a more sophisticated level of the robotic mind. I suppose that one would have to go out there and have a look at things with understanding and then come back and demonstrate the validity of this other reality. The problem is that 99% of the folks that do do this leave and do not come back. And the 1% that do come back are either worshipped or are persecuted for witchcraft or sorcery.

The whole thing makes one want to go back to their action/adventure video game where they can kick some tush . Of course having a worthy opponent in an intellectual message board reality can also be fun . RobHaukins ic mind against robotic mind! Way to much fun! But I am not exactly sure where the "Zen" is in that though .

Primarily why I chose Zen. Soto in particular as the emphasis lies with Zazen as opposed to more ideological and even scriptural forms of Buddhist practices that are out there.

Strangely enough, I found it too difficult to master the discipline one requires for an effective Soto practice, so I opted instead for Bompu Zen in terms of maintaining the holistic benefits derived from the practice brought about by the techniques used in Zazen and Kinhin. Bompu is also scripture -less, left entirely at the discretion of the practitioner. Basically put, it's wild fox zen as it stands.

To address the robot chicken issue.... ;0]

The techniques I use result in a very sterile and impersonal form of Zen for which Zazen plays a key role as it focuses on quieting thoughts through acknowledgment and letting go, giving way for dissipation to which at that time maybe, perhaps, ??? afford a "glimpse" into what is said to be pure and pristine revealing for a moment our untainted true nature as such, far from the reaches of thought and mind.

So as such remains wordless and thought-less. Which as I see it, is why scriptures and metaphysical nuances pertaining to Buddhist practices, helpful as they may be in cases, cannot penetrate the dazzling brilliance brought about by (that particular monkey) finally letting go of the branch and giving way to an understanding not demonstrable through thoughts and words.

Incidentally, was that two mindful robots. minding 2 robots.... Oh no. *Grin*

 

[psychoslice]

I sure do not disagree with you, I just thought that I would get your input on some of the things that I have been tossing around in my mind. Just for the sake of discussion (and curiosity ) , what would you think is the relationship between the concept of "true self" and the concept of breaking the third Dharma Seal?

Well there is no true concept of the true Self, because its only a concept, which can never be the true Self, even breaking the seal is a concept, in truth there is no seal to break, we are already that which IS, of course the concepts can help, but like a thorn in our foot, we take a thorn or concept to dig the thorn out of our foot, we then throw both thorns away.

 

[mystic64]

Primarily why I chose Zen. Soto in particular as the emphasis lies with Zazen as opposed to more ideological and even scriptural forms of Buddhist practices that are out there.

Strangely enough, I found it too difficult to master the discipline one requires for an effective Soto practice, so I opted instead for Bompu Zen in terms of maintaining the holistic benefits derived from the practice brought about by the techniques used in Zazen and Kinhin. Bompu is also scripture -less, left entirely at the discretion of the practitioner. Basically put, it's wild fox zen as it stands.

To address the robot chicken issue.... ;0]

The techniques I use result in a very sterile and impersonal form of Zen for which Zazen plays a key role as it focuses on quieting thoughts through acknowledgment and letting go, giving way for dissipation to which at that time maybe, perhaps, ??? afford a "glimpse" into what is said to be pure and pristine revealing for a moment our untainted true nature as such, far from the reaches of thought and mind.

So as such remains wordless and thought-less. Which as I see it, is why scriptures and metaphysical nuances pertaining to Buddhist practices, helpful as they may be in cases, cannot penetrate the dazzling brilliance brought about by (that particular monkey) finally letting go of the branch and giving way to an understanding not demonstrable through thoughts and words.

Incidentally, was that two mindful robots. minding 2 robots.... Oh no. *Grin*

Quote from luckymojo.com:

The first of [the five] types [of Zen] we call
*bompu* or "ordinary" Zen as opposed to the other
four, each of which can be thought of as a special
kind of Zen suitable for the particular aims of
different individuals. Bompu Zen, being free from
any philosophic or religious content, is for
anybody and everybody. It is a Zen practiced
purely in the belief that it can improve both
physical and mental health. Since it can almost
certainly have no ill effects, anyone can under-
take it, whatever religious beliefs he happens to
hold or if he holds none at all. Bompu Zen is
bound to eliminate sickness of a psychosomatic
nature and to improve the health generally.
Through the practice of bompu Zen you learn to
concentrate and control your mind.
________________________

I have spent thousands of hours over the last forty years in meditation. And it has been just recently that everything has begin to come together as understanding. The key to it all was stepping in to one of Strawdog's topics in the Buddhist DIR and discovering the concept of a no notion/conceptual workings mind state. I have been drifting into and out of that mind state for some years now but I have always tried to understand it with conceptual workings which has always then brought me back into a conceptual workings reality. After all who could ever believe that one could exist in a functional mind state where notions or conceptual works do not exist? When I learned and understood back in my late thirties that I had to forget everything that I was ever taught I was able to achieve the nirodha (cessation of thought) mind state. And I thought that that was so that I could learn a higher level of conceptual workings, which I actually did learn, but these higher conceptual learnings kept taking me into a mind state where conceptual workings didn't exist. Finding out that there is suppose to be a place/mind state where conceptual workings do not exist and that that mind state was the Buddhist goal (and Daoist/Taoist), because of Strawdog's topic, has been a real gift to me as a student of this stuff.

And now as a gift from you Nowhere Man, I find out that what I have been doing as a yogi for all of these years was "bompu" Zen . For years as a Christian yogi mystic I have been wondering about the mysteries of Buddha's wisdom and now I find out that all of this time I have been a practicing "bompu" Zen, which has lead to the understanding of the mysteries of Buddha's wisdom. All thanks to Strawdog and Nowhere Man. I really own you guys I really do.

 

[Straw Dog]

I have spent thousands of hours over the last forty years in meditation. And it has been just recently that everything has begin to come together as understanding. The key to it all was stepping in to one of Strawdog's topics in the Buddhist DIR and discovering the concept of a no notion/conceptual workings mind state. I have been drifting into and out of that mind state for some years now but I have always tried to understand it with conceptual workings which has always then brought me back into a conceptual workings reality. After all who could ever believe that one could exist in a functional mind state where notions or conceptual works do not exist? When I learned and understood back in my late thirties that I had to forget everything that I was ever taught I was able to achieve the nirodha (cessation of thought) mind state. And I thought that that was so that I could learn a higher level of conceptual workings, which I actually did learn, but these higher conceptual learnings kept taking me into a mind state where conceptual workings didn't exist. Finding out that there is suppose to be a place/mind state where conceptual workings do not exist and that that mind state was the Buddhist goal (and Daoist/Taoist), because of Strawdog's topic, has been a real gift to me as a student of this stuff.

And now as a gift from you Nowhere Man, I find out that what I have been doing as a yogi for all of these years was "bompu" Zen . For years as a Christian yogi mystic I have been wondering about the mysteries of Buddha's wisdom and now I find out that all of this time I have been a practicing "bompu" Zen, which has lead to the understanding of the mysteries of Buddha's wisdom. All thanks to Strawdog and Nowhere Man. I really own you guys I really do.

You are very welcome! Just please don't mistake anything I say for 'wisdom', whatever that is. I'm just a trickster and a fool.

Is it a particular static state of mind? Or is it the realization of statelessness?

 

[Straw Dog]

Primarily why I chose Zen. Soto in particular as the emphasis lies with Zazen as opposed to more ideological and even scriptural forms of Buddhist practices that are out there.

Strangely enough, I found it too difficult to master the discipline one requires for an effective Soto practice, so I opted instead for Bompu Zen in terms of maintaining the holistic benefits derived from the practice brought about by the techniques used in Zazen and Kinhin. Bompu is also scripture -less, left entirely at the discretion of the practitioner. Basically put, it's wild fox zen as it stands.

My practice has also gone in a more bompu direction. I call it wild card zen or casual zen: informal mind, informal practice. I meditate daily, but don't follow a strict schedule or pattern. Sometimes I stop halfway through kinhin and start doing the dishes. Sometimes I stop at particular pivot points, like a doorway, and turn around or take a few mindful breaths while appreciating the sense of place and objects (bedroom, living room, etc.). Sometimes my zazen shifts into zuowang.

Well... I need to realign my chi. I've already spent too much time on RFs/computer today. And now time for something completely different...

 

[mystic64]

You are very welcome! Just please don't mistake anything I say for 'wisdom', whatever that is. I'm just a trickster and a fool.

Is it a particular static state of mind? Or is it the realization of statelessness?

I think that it has to do with processing speed. Our minds have the innate ability to have a processing speed that is so fast that time ceases to exist. Conceptual workings as a thought process slows thing down to a real crawl. It is not really a static state of mind, but it is a realization of statelessness if you consider statelessness being just on and aware of a reality that appears to be infinite in every conceivable and non conceivable direction. For lack of any other term, it is like being in a mind meld with God and understanding is not necessary. And it is like you are moving so fast that everything is standing still. And then when you add to this, a/the connection to the "Source" everything becomes dynamically alive which actually feels quite pleasent.

Yep Straw Dog, I think it has to do with processing speed. It is like one of the old original desk computers trying to understand a super computer. And because you are using the memory of the super computer your only limitation is your processing speed which apparently is unlimited if you dump the old DOS operating system (conceptual workings mind reality), which then also allows the super computer to show you how to play in its reality.

Strawdog, I am glad that nobody takes me seriously and I like it that way. I am a pure investigative research type fellow that would rather not have to deal with the conceptual workings of academia and tradition. And I do own you guys a debt, I was up against a wall and you inadvertently opened a door for me !