You're A Theist Because...

[Rival]

Of most of the theists I have met, of all stripes, none are theists because they:

- Want a purpose in life so they look for a theistic religion that gives them something to do. Not only is this shallow, the illusion will die quickly. Even religions may not propose a concrete idea as to the purpose of life and this may be found in a mystical philosophy or otherwise.

- Are afraid of death.This is insincere and, again, the illusion will die quickly.

- Are born into it. Most serious practitioners I know have evaluated their faith and found it solid. Nowadays many people who are born into faith families have the option to evaluate their faith, find it wanting, and leave. Even if this isn't the case in real life, certainly on the internet one has the freedom to be honest.

These are the most common 'reasons' I hear being put forward by prominent atheists (Dawkins, for example, has used all three). People are theists for all sorts of reasons, and I find it irresponsible for other people to try to tell us why we believe, as if there's some sort of strange pity-party going on for us. And yes, 'My life experience' is a completely valid reason for being a theist.

 

[sun rise]

Allowing someone else to define who you are is virtually always a mistake.

 

[Nakosis]

Of most of the theists I have met, of all stripes, none are theists because they:

- Want a purpose in life so they look for a theistic religion that gives them something to do. Not only is this shallow, the illusion will die quickly. Even religions may not propose a concrete idea as to the purpose of life and this may be found in a mystical philosophy or otherwise.

- Are afraid of death.This is insincere and, again, the illusion will die quickly.

- Are born into it. Most serious practitioners I know have evaluated their faith and found it solid. Nowadays many people who are born into faith families have the option to evaluate their faith, find it wanting, and leave. Even if this isn't the case in real life, certainly on the internet one has the freedom to be honest.

These are the most common 'reasons' I hear being put forward by prominent atheists (Dawkins, for example, has used all three). People are theists for all sorts of reasons, and I find it irresponsible for other people to try to tell us why we believe, as if there's some sort of strange pity-party going on for us. And yes, 'My life experience' is a completely valid reason for being a theist.

How often does a theist choose to be a theist?

Is theism a matter of logic and rational determination or is it a matter of feelings?

Can we rationally determine there is a God? Or is a person left to rely on what they feel is the truth?

Although many have tried the logical, rational approach, these arguments usually fall short of knowledge that can be verified. And, in conversations with many theists, it usually comes down to a matter of feelings.

Why are folks theists? Because of feelings is usually what it comes down to. Your feelings about your life experiences validate your theism.

While I completely understand that. I no longer see feelings as valid reasons by themselves. I've found my feelings alone can't be trusted. Not saying feelings are automatically wrong, just they IMO need to be supported by evidence, logic, reasoned thought. Sometimes feelings are right, sometimes not so much.

 

[Rival]

Is theism a matter of logic and rational determination or is it a matter of feelings?

Generally both.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How often does a theist choose to be a theist?

Is theism a matter of logic and rational determination or is it a matter of feelings?

Can we rationally determine there is a God? Or is a person left to rely on what they feel is the truth?

Although many have tried the logical, rational approach, these arguments usually fall short of knowledge that can be verified. And, in conversations with many theists, it usually comes down to a matter of feelings.

Why are folks theists? Because of feelings is usually what it comes down to. Your feelings about your life experiences validate your theism.

While I completely understand that. I no longer see feelings as valid reasons by themselves. I've found my feelings alone can't be trusted. Not saying feelings are automatically wrong, just they IMO need to be supported by evidence, logic, reasoned thought. Sometimes feelings are right, sometimes not so much.

What's the consequence of trusting false feelings if the benefits of that trust outweigh whether or not those feelings being fact or fiction?

 

[Mindmaster]

These are the most common 'reasons' I hear being put forward by prominent atheists (Dawkins, for example, has used all three). People are theists for all sorts of reasons, and I find it irresponsible for other people to try to tell us why we believe, as if there's some sort of strange pity-party going on for us. And yes, 'My life experience' is a completely valid reason for being a theist.

For all the reasons they mention apparently they're not smart enough to determine that people largely don't choose to be a theist. It's fundamentally easier to have no stated position...

Mind you, I don't conflate habitual practice of a religion with making a choice. That's just tribalism not spirituality of any sort.

I must confess life was easier when I felt I was an atheist, it's just my experiences lead me in another direction. If you think Christians are difficult in this regard, imagine coming out to several of your atheist friends (who are still Satanists) -- it's pretty much like dropping a nuke in your life. Most are militant anti-theists, but I decided that I have integrity and honesty and ultimately it doesn't affect them. If they think I'm crazy, so what? I talk to my deity and he talks to me in his way, and I'm just not a hypocrite about the whole thing. I can pretend it doesn't exist, but it's in my awareness that it does. (I tried, thought I might be crazy for a bit... I was a pretty staunch materialist-atheist, using most of their lingo to explain my reality.) I decided that the definition of crazy or delusional would be that I didn't "question" my experiences in the first place. Someone who is delusional blindly accepts them, but I never did -- I just formed an analysis from a pattern of experiences that lead to only one conclusion.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Of most of the theists I have met, of all stripes, none are theists because they:

- Want a purpose in life so they look for a theistic religion that gives them something to do. Not only is this shallow, the illusion will die quickly. Even religions may not propose a concrete idea as to the purpose of life and this may be found in a mystical philosophy or otherwise.

- Are afraid of death.This is insincere and, again, the illusion will die quickly.

- Are born into it. Most serious practitioners I know have evaluated their faith and found it solid. Nowadays many people who are born into faith families have the option to evaluate their faith, find it wanting, and leave. Even if this isn't the case in real life, certainly on the internet one has the freedom to be honest.

These are the most common 'reasons' I hear being put forward by prominent atheists (Dawkins, for example, has used all three). People are theists for all sorts of reasons, and I find it irresponsible for other people to try to tell us why we believe, as if there's some sort of strange pity-party going on for us. And yes, 'My life experience' is a completely valid reason for being a theist.

Life experience is one of the basis of spiritual validity and evidence for the truth of ones faith. What is off is associating feelings and experiences as universal facts that others, if they have the same experiences, will draw the same conclusions and believe in the same god. My experience and interaction all people explain an incident they have with their gods however define. Weirdly enough, if you extract the culture and language they (as humans) experience the same thing by different name.

So experiences are valid for justification of faith. Knowing its individual or communal rather than universal is the key aggitator.

 

[WalterTrull]

I don't seem able to identify with Theist or Deist, at least from the dictionary definitions. I believe there is God because I am aware of other people. I seem able to interact with them and I truly believe they are real.

 

[nPeace]

need to be supported by evidence, logic, reasoned thought..

Yes. All of the above is what millions of theist go by.

 

[David T]

Allowing someone else to define who you are is virtually always a mistake.

Its virtual literally!!!!!

 

[Skwim]

These are the most common 'reasons' I hear being put forward by prominent atheists (Dawkins, for example, has used all three). People are theists for all sorts of reasons, and I find it irresponsible for other people to try to tell us why we believe, as if there's some sort of strange pity-party going on for us. And yes, 'My life experience' is a completely valid reason for being a theist.

Then how about telling us what you believe and why you believe it. Or at least why you believe whatever it is.

.

 

[Rival]

Then how about telling us what you believe and why you believe it. Or at least why you believe whatever it is.

.

Because this thread isn't about me? And I'm not looking for it to become a debate about why I believe what I do.

 

[Rival]

Rival's problem with people telling him

Her

 

[`mud]

hey Rival,
I found this online, hard to copy, but in context, I found it interesting:
The Seven Laws of Noah

Know G-d
Knowledge of the One True G-d
Man, the weakest of creatures, is surrounded by forces of life and death far greater than himself. Confronted with the vastness of these universal forces, man might well try to ‘serve them’ in order to protect himself, and better his lot. The essence of life, however, is to recognize the Supreme Being who created the Universe and accept His laws with awe and love. We must remember that He is aware of all our deeds, rewarding goodness and punishing evil. We are dependent on Him, and to Him alone do we owe allegiance.
To imagine that there could be any other power that could protect us or provide for our needs perverts the purpose of life, and, as history has shown, potentially unleashes untold forces of evil in ourselves, and in the world.

Respect G-d
Respect G-d’s Holy Name
When we feel disappointed with life, when things do not work out as they should, how easy it to point an accusing finger and blame…everyone…everything…even G-D. Loyalty and trust are crucial in life. To blame G-d, curse, or to curse others in His name, is an act of disloyalty – akin to treason. It is an act which undermines the basis of all order and stability, on which a just society must stand.

Respect Life
Respect the Sanctity of Human Life
The record of man’s inhumanity to man begins with the story of Cain and Abel. Man is indeed his brother’s keeper. The prohibition against manslaughter (including abortion) comes to protect man from the bestial tendency which lies within him. Man the attacker, denies the sanctity of human life, and ultimately attacks G-d, who created us in His image.

Respect Marriage
Respect the Traditional Family
The Bible states, “It is not good for man to be alone,” so G-d made a helpmate for Adam and in marriage “He blessed them.” In a wholesome family, man’s creativity finds meaningful expression. Wholesome families are the cornerstone of healthy communities, nations, and societies. Nations which have condoned immorality – adultery, homosexuality, sodomy, incest – have never lasted long. Sexual immorality is the sign of an inner decay which spawns a ruthless society, bringing confusion into G-d’s life plan.

Respect Property
Respect the Property of Others
Since our sustenance comes from G-d, we should seek to earn it honestly, with dignity, and not through false means. To violate the property of others, by robbing or cheating, is a fundamental attack on their humanity. This breeds anarchy, plunging mankind into the depths of selfishness and cruelty. It was for this sin, above all, that the Flood was brought upon the world.

Respect Animals
Respect All Creatures
G-d gives man “dominion over the fish of the sea, the fowl of the heaven, over cattle, and over all of the earth.” We are caretakers of G-d’s creation. Ultimately our responsibility extends beyond our family, even beyond society, to include the world of nature.
Eating meat so fresh that the animal is still alive, may be healthy, but it is cruel, even barbaric, displaying a decadent insensitivity to the pain of others. This law is the touchstone, if you will, that measures how well the other six laws are being observed. When man fulfills his potential, the whole of creation is nurtured and elevated to realize its goal. This transforms the world into a beautiful gem – a place where G-d can dwell.

Preserve Justice
Establish a Righteous Judicial System
A robust and healthy legal system, administering justice fairly, creates a society worthy of G-d’s blessings. Establishing a system of judges, courts, and officials to maintain and enforce the law is a far-reaching responsibility. This precept translates the ideals of our personal life into a formal order for society at large. It is the extension and guarantee of all the preceding laws.
~
A lot of it fits my life style, sans `G_D`, but... kinda good!
Substitute `Earth's Stuff` for `G_D` and I like it a lot !

 

[Rival]

hey Rival,
I found this online, hard to copy, but in context, I found it interesting:
The Seven Laws of Noah

Know G-d
Knowledge of the One True G-d
Man, the weakest of creatures, is surrounded by forces of life and death far greater than himself. Confronted with the vastness of these universal forces, man might well try to ‘serve them’ in order to protect himself, and better his lot. The essence of life, however, is to recognize the Supreme Being who created the Universe and accept His laws with awe and love. We must remember that He is aware of all our deeds, rewarding goodness and punishing evil. We are dependent on Him, and to Him alone do we owe allegiance.
To imagine that there could be any other power that could protect us or provide for our needs perverts the purpose of life, and, as history has shown, potentially unleashes untold forces of evil in ourselves, and in the world.

Respect G-d
Respect G-d’s Holy Name
When we feel disappointed with life, when things do not work out as they should, how easy it to point an accusing finger and blame…everyone…everything…even G-D. Loyalty and trust are crucial in life. To blame G-d, curse, or to curse others in His name, is an act of disloyalty – akin to treason. It is an act which undermines the basis of all order and stability, on which a just society must stand.

Respect Life
Respect the Sanctity of Human Life
The record of man’s inhumanity to man begins with the story of Cain and Abel. Man is indeed his brother’s keeper. The prohibition against manslaughter (including abortion) comes to protect man from the bestial tendency which lies within him. Man the attacker, denies the sanctity of human life, and ultimately attacks G-d, who created us in His image.

Respect Marriage
Respect the Traditional Family
The Bible states, “It is not good for man to be alone,” so G-d made a helpmate for Adam and in marriage “He blessed them.” In a wholesome family, man’s creativity finds meaningful expression. Wholesome families are the cornerstone of healthy communities, nations, and societies. Nations which have condoned immorality – adultery, homosexuality, sodomy, incest – have never lasted long. Sexual immorality is the sign of an inner decay which spawns a ruthless society, bringing confusion into G-d’s life plan.

Respect Property
Respect the Property of Others
Since our sustenance comes from G-d, we should seek to earn it honestly, with dignity, and not through false means. To violate the property of others, by robbing or cheating, is a fundamental attack on their humanity. This breeds anarchy, plunging mankind into the depths of selfishness and cruelty. It was for this sin, above all, that the Flood was brought upon the world.

Respect Animals
Respect All Creatures
G-d gives man “dominion over the fish of the sea, the fowl of the heaven, over cattle, and over all of the earth.” We are caretakers of G-d’s creation. Ultimately our responsibility extends beyond our family, even beyond society, to include the world of nature.
Eating meat so fresh that the animal is still alive, may be healthy, but it is cruel, even barbaric, displaying a decadent insensitivity to the pain of others. This law is the touchstone, if you will, that measures how well the other six laws are being observed. When man fulfills his potential, the whole of creation is nurtured and elevated to realize its goal. This transforms the world into a beautiful gem – a place where G-d can dwell.

Preserve Justice
Establish a Righteous Judicial System
A robust and healthy legal system, administering justice fairly, creates a society worthy of G-d’s blessings. Establishing a system of judges, courts, and officials to maintain and enforce the law is a far-reaching responsibility. This precept translates the ideals of our personal life into a formal order for society at large. It is the extension and guarantee of all the preceding laws.
~
A lot of it fits my life style, sans `G_D`, but... kinda good!
Substitute `Earth's Stuff` for `G_D` and I like it a lot !

Believe it or not, I know these well!

 

[Mindmaster]

How often does a theist choose to be a theist?

Every single time, because it's not the natural position. (Which is namely -- "I don't know, either way.") I am not including born-in tribalism into that mix.

Is theism a matter of logic and rational determination or is it a matter of feelings?

Both, neither exist in isolation in the average human. Conversely, both are important and not exclusive to one another. Our happiness is what makes us human, but also our ability to meander in these thoughts.

Can we rationally determine there is a God? Or is a person left to rely on what they feel is the truth?

Yes, if you accept your subjective impressions as valid sensory input. (I do.) Though admittedly, material evidence is not useful in this regard. By extension though, what do you know outside of your human filter? Science and materialism are mostly consensus, and one has to realize that property limits its scope to some degree. If we're ultimately trying to be logical, after all. There are plenty of things in nature that don't "make sense" like our bodies arbitrarily perceiving some electromagnetic radiation as sound, light (and color), and so on. There is no reason for it to be so, other than our bodies present us this information in this way -- other animals see, hear, and sense differently yet we conflate our reality with our perceptions. Those senses filter out 99.9% (or even more) of the data, perhaps they filter out spiritual information for most people as well. (At least, in the truest sense.) Anyway, all I'm saying here is that you should never overly trust things on the basis of independent verification. If 1% of the population has the ability to directly sense a higher power that doesn't mean that the "consensus" is right, but the filter (aka the human machine) makes things difficult. Of course, you could just literally be questioning these things and one of them literally reaches out to you -- like in my case. However, I realize there is a chance I am just in that lucky percentage it's not something I expect people to believe. I perceive spiritual communications as thoughts -- I don't hear them. We could argue they exist only in my head, but I have the impression they're not mine -- they know things I don't know, and so on. Ultimately, that is the test of whether they are valid impressions or not. Is the information useful? That determines the worth for the receiver. I'm, of course, completely rejecting any sort of blind-faith argument.

Although many have tried the logical, rational approach, these arguments usually fall short of knowledge that can be verified. And, in conversations with many theists, it usually comes down to a matter of feelings.

This is mixing fields of course, in that presuming logic has authority because it seems more correct. Consensus rarely achieves the truth. It's simply arguing that the "middle-of-the-road" is the right path, the middle being established in what most people tend to agree with due to what is immediately apparent. If you can't discern a difference between that and the whole truth it becomes problematic.

Why are folks theists? Because of feelings is usually what it comes down to. Your feelings about your life experiences validate your theism.

Your feelings about rationality and logic validate that as well. We all suffer at the hands of the cruel master of the human filter.

While I completely understand that. I no longer see feelings as valid reasons by themselves. I've found my feelings alone can't be trusted. Not saying feelings are automatically wrong, just they IMO need to be supported by evidence, logic, reasoned thought. Sometimes feelings are right, sometimes not so much.

But, you do, in the hypocritical sense. Your feelings tell you that evidence, logic, and facts are more important than anyone else's experience. That's a gut shot call, you can't know that. The issue is far to complex to generalize in such a way about it's nature. It's accurate to restate the position in the context of, "I am not aware of such experiences because I don't have them", but not valid to say that "evidence" is greater than personal experience. If your personal experiences refute evidence that others have provided, then such evidence is null and void immediately. It all becomes a game of where you decide the filtering begins.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Of most of the theists I have met, of all stripes, none are theists because they:

- Want a purpose in life so they look for a theistic religion that gives them something to do. Not only is this shallow, the illusion will die quickly. Even religions may not propose a concrete idea as to the purpose of life and this may be found in a mystical philosophy or otherwise.

- Are afraid of death.This is insincere and, again, the illusion will die quickly.

- Are born into it. Most serious practitioners I know have evaluated their faith and found it solid. Nowadays many people who are born into faith families have the option to evaluate their faith, find it wanting, and leave. Even if this isn't the case in real life, certainly on the internet one has the freedom to be honest.

These are the most common 'reasons' I hear being put forward by prominent atheists (Dawkins, for example, has used all three). People are theists for all sorts of reasons, and I find it irresponsible for other people to try to tell us why we believe, as if there's some sort of strange pity-party going on for us. And yes, 'My life experience' is a completely valid reason for being a theist.

Argument from design is also a common reason among theists who don't understand how natural selection and sexual selection can give the illusion of design in living things.

 

[Rival]

Argument from design is also a common reason among theists who don't understand how natural selection and sexual selection can give the illusion of design in living things.

Did you understand my OP? It's about not telling theists why we believe stuff. Here in the UK, creationism is not widely believed by Christians, the majority faith. None of the reasons I gave are 'common reasons' for theism.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I've had too many experiences and signs in my life to not believe in God. Also that there is one supreme God just makes the most logical sense to me.

 

[Holdasown]

I am a theist because I believe the gods exists as individual beings. You can tack more on to it if you wish but I am not obliged to care.