1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Your thoughts on Cuomo's reproductive health act?

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by whirlingmerc, Jan 31, 2019.

  1. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Messages:
    5,881
    Ratings:
    +3,778
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Unrepresentative anecdotes are a poor basis for policy. What percentage of medically recommended abortions turn out to have been misdiagnosed?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    19,377
    Ratings:
    +6,917
    Religion:
    Zen Buddhism
    The thing about those kind of examples is that they are success cases with people who have strong wills and motivations and living in communities that can accommodate. Nothing wrong with it , but you still need to be realistic that most people in those situations tend to have very terrible and difficult lives to live, with outcomes not typical of their successful counterparts.

    It's important to keep the broad picture in mind.
     
  3. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    6,124
    Ratings:
    +1,578
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    I could ask the same as you.

    Why do you want to promote the removal of viable life that you are currently trying to brush off?
    What's your problem with having laws to protect life when emotions impair rational thinking?
    Why should it be the why "you think it should"?
     
  4. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    6,124
    Ratings:
    +1,578
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian

    Ok... I understand that real dialogue isn't the goal here.
     
  5. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    3,877
    Ratings:
    +2,057
    Religion:
    atheist
    There are anecdotal stories and there are anecdotal stories.

    Some people are more gullible than others.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    3,877
    Ratings:
    +2,057
    Religion:
    atheist
    It's hard to have any kind of dialogue with you when you continuously refuse to address even a most basic question like:
    However, I was easily able to spot RightWing propaganda in your Washington Times article. Did you find anything in the NYT article that was untrue?


    It's hard to have any kind of dialogue with you when you intentionally get your information from Ultra Conservative sources and refuse to look at multiple mainstream sources.


    It's hard to have any kind of dialogue with you when you intentionally post things like:
    but where does "It may cost more but the parents or the family who has the authority over the patient think it needs to continue" portion?

    If it is all about just the cost because it exceeds costs, where is the help for the one outside that boundary?
    I politely asked to you put your comments into context, but you refused. All you did was respond with:
    I understand that real dialogue isn't the goal here.​

    I guess you were referring to yourself.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    6,124
    Ratings:
    +1,578
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian

    First, I answered your question.
    Second, you give yourself a "get out of jail" free card by judging others with a different weight than yourself
    Third, your statement are FILLED with accusations
    And last,

    YES

    "The 15-member board has always been more theoretical than actual."

    In that you really don't want dialogue but rather create false narratives that amount to fake news...

    I bow out.
     
  8. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    3,877
    Ratings:
    +2,057
    Religion:
    atheist
    I'm sure that is easier than responding to:

    However, I was easily able to spot RightWing propaganda in your Washington Times article. Did you find anything in the NYT article that was untrue?
     
  9. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Messages:
    7,606
    Ratings:
    +2,929
    How so?

    Why did you ignore my questions?

    What I want is for medical decisions to remain where they belong - between the patient and the doctor. It's the only way that a person's autonomy is not trampled upon. Do you not think a person should get to make decisions about their own life and death? I mean, do you think it would be okay to force someone to donate a kidney to a dying person? Why or why not?
     
  10. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    6,124
    Ratings:
    +1,578
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    For the same reasons you ignored mine?
    For various reason.

    1) What about the rights of the baby that is 8 months in gestation?
    2) Why is it ok to trample on his/her rights?
    3) Who will speak for the baby about their own life decisions?
    4) Kidney is not applicable.
    5) Is it really just between them or does the doctor promote it as an authority during a very emotionally charge time? Forcing his will? (It is difficult enough for women)
    6) How many doctors do you have to go through to have one help you when you want to keep the baby?

    Example:

    New York passed a law allowing abortion for “health” reasons (even emotional or familial) through the entire pregnancy, Sudlow told Live Action News that from the moment the ultrasound technician said, “That’s one strong heart in there,” she knew she would do anything to protect her child.

    At 20 weeks along, she was given that opportunity when at her 20-week anatomy ultrasound appointment, she and her husband learned something was wrong with the baby. Hannah was rushed to maternal-fetal health, and after three hours of ultrasounds, the doctor turned to the couple and said matter-of-factly, “Do you have any idea what’s going on?” Sudlow replied that no, she didn’t.

    New York passed a law allowing abortion for “health” reasons (even emotional or familial) through the entire pregnancy, Sudlow told Live Action News that from the moment the ultrasound technician said, “That’s one strong heart in there,” she knew she would do anything to protect her child.

    At 20 weeks along, she was given that opportunity when at her 20-week anatomy ultrasound appointment, she and her husband learned something was wrong with the baby. Hannah was rushed to maternal-fetal health, and after three hours of ultrasounds, the doctor turned to the couple and said matter-of-factly, “Do you have any idea what’s going on?” Sudlow replied that no, she didn’t.

    “He said, ‘Basically everything is wrong with this child. She has cysts on her brain. She is four weeks behind on her growth. She has intrauterine growth restriction, a hypo-plastic left ventricle, a single ventricle heart. She is missing half her heart. She has a cleft palate, clenched fists, and oh, by the way, two clubbed feet. Oh and by the way, it’s a girl,'” Sudlow explained.

    An amniocentesis was performed and the results came back that the baby girl, named Evelyn, had Down syndrome. Doctors said that if Sudlow and her husband were going to keep Evelyn, they needed to see a cardiologist and have a plan in place.

    The cardiologist confirmed that Evelyn had a double outlet right ventricle and no left ventricle. There was no left side to her heart at all and he seemed confused because what he was seeing fell in line with Trisomy 18, not Down syndrome. Still, he said the surgery Evelyn would need would be complicated, but doable. That was until the lab director realized that they had mixed up Evelyn’s test with someone else’s. Evelyn didn’t have Down syndrome. She had Trisomy 18.

    When a doctor from Maternal Fetal Health called to tell Sudlow of the error, he told her that Trisomy 18 is considered incompatible with life. Then he said he had spoken with a doctor at her OB/GYN office and that doctor had informed him that Sudlow would be terminating the pregnancy and that he had already scheduled the abortion appointment. Sudlow was shocked and said she did not want an abortion. The doctor didn’t agree. (why the pressure? - why does a doctor schedule something without talking to the parents?)

    “He said, ‘You can’t keep her. I don’t think you know how serious this is,'” said Sudlow.

    Obviously upset, she called the doctor who had scheduled the abortion – a doctor she had never met – and told him she wasn’t doing it. As she sobbed on the phone, he told her to save her energy for the child she was carrying – the child he had scheduled an abortion for without consent. After she refused the abortion again, the office she had been going to for her entire pregnancy refused to provide her with prenatal care. (I thought the decision was the mothers and not the doctors? So doctors are going to force them to do what they want?)

    “The driving force behind my pregnancy was that I did not start Evelyn’s heartbeat and I did not have the authority to decide when it stopped,” said Sudlow. “She was ALWAYS safest inside my womb, and I had to protect her.”

    Sudlow searched for a doctor to care for her and her baby and finally found one. However, it was the main center for high-risk pregnancies and they would only take her on as a patient if she made it to 25 weeks. Sudlow agreed and waited. Then came the good news.

    At 30 weeks, the cysts on Evelyn’s brain went away. At 32 weeks, one of her feet straightened out. That same week, Evelyn went into heart failure and doctors said she would die at any moment. But by week 37, her heart began to work again and she began to kick and grow again. At 37 weeks, her hands opened. Doctors discussed with Sudlow and her husband the kind of care they wanted Evelyn to receive at birth.

    “I knew she needed a chance,” said Sudlow. “I made it very clear that she was not to be a DNR. She was to have full intervention.”

    Baby Evelyn was born safely at 39 weeks. Eight doctors were there and despite what they had predicted, she didn’t die. She also no longer had a cleft palate. Evelyn was taken immediately for oxygen and spent three weeks in the hospital. Despite the proof that she was a fighter, the outlook was still grim. The surgery that had been discussed when doctors thought Evelyn had Down syndrome was no longer an option because she had Trisomy 18. Doctors sent Evelyn home still believing she would die — and therefore treating her differently.

    By the time she was two months old, Evelyn’s heart began to cut off her oxygen supply and her liver was failing. The cardiologist said there was nothing they could do, and they placed her on hospice. It was Christmas, but shortly after New Year’s, the family met with the one cardiologist at the office that had never treated Evelyn before. She shocked the new parents when she told them that there was something that could be done to fix Evelyn’s heart. The couple was hopeful, but when the doctor spoke to the cardiology surgical team, they turned down the surgery. They felt that the risk of Evelyn dying on the table or never being able to come off the breathing tube outweighed any chance of her living longer than two more weeks.

    “Then we got a call the next morning that there is a doctor that is willing to do the surgery even though she may not make it,” said Sudlow. “The surgery took six hours. She came off the breathing tube six hours later. And she has been fine ever since.”

    Thanks to doctors that were willing to try, Evelyn is now two years old and is a big sister to Esme, just 10 months younger than she is. Her heart is stable and though every few months she visits the hospital for oxygen support, she has no form of heart failure.

    “She is thriving. She’s laughing. She knows her sister. She knows her name,” said Sudlow. “She is meeting milestones we were told she never would. She is our greatest, greatest, greatest joy. She has brought so much love and life to our family. The only tragedy would have been to never have met Evelyn. She has brought so much to our life.”

    Sudlow wants every parent of a child with a health condition to know that Evelyn’s days may be numbered, but so are everyone’s.

    “Only God is the holder of time. That is freedom to me,” she explained. “It frees me up to be Evelyn’s mom and enjoy her like I would any other child. I pray for wisdom with her health and God to open doors when something needs done, but knowing her life has its own purpose takes that weight off of my shoulders.”

    “The moment we stop defending the weakest & most vulnerable in our society will be a complete tragedy,” wrote Sudlow on Facebook. “I will always share my story. I always stand in the gap. I will always choose life.”
     
    #90 KenS, Feb 11, 2019 at 2:34 PM
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019 at 2:45 PM
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    3,877
    Ratings:
    +2,057
    Religion:
    atheist
    The above makes it clear that Sudlow's opinions are based on religion. People who believe laws should be based on religion should move to Countries where laws are based on religion.

    Saudi Arabia comes to mind.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    6,124
    Ratings:
    +1,578
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    skewed vision -- stay on the subject please.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  13. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2012
    Messages:
    11,700
    Ratings:
    +2,257
    I agree as the fetus matures the states interest in protecting the child increases. The New York law allows for that. However, not until birth do the states interest in protecting the then baby's rights reach a level that would allow for state intrusion.

    Rights have always been a balancing act, whether we are discussing freedom of speech, freedom of religion or freedom of privacy.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    6,124
    Ratings:
    +1,578
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    Yes, it has.... I think it has balanced to far against life.

    If "Emilia Grabarczyk was only 8.6 inches (22cm) long and weighed 8 ounces (229 grams) when she was born at a hospital in the western German city of Witten nine months ago." (2016) and is fully alive and functioning... why not just let the mother give her away? Save them both?

    Why snuff out the life of a real child?

    Why not just let a childless couple who wants a baby but can't have one just adopt it?

    Have we become so calloused as to think THIS isn't a baby because it is in a womb but "POOF" it is taken out of the womb and now it a baby?
    PAY-smallest-ever-prem-baby-to-survive-was-only-31-cm-long.jpg

    added

    today:

    Screen Shot 2019-02-11 at 6.57.24 PM.png
     
    #94 KenS, Feb 11, 2019 at 5:50 PM
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019 at 5:59 PM
  15. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2012
    Messages:
    11,700
    Ratings:
    +2,257
    I would agree that the states interests in the child's rights meet the necessary threshold to intervene by giving the birthed infant to another family and punishing those who wpuld oppose that intervention.

    Are you intentionally creating a strawman, unaware of what I said, or have a specific point?
     
  16. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    6,124
    Ratings:
    +1,578
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    You completely lost me here.
     
  17. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Messages:
    5,881
    Ratings:
    +3,778
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Don't you just love it when they claim "I answered your question" when they previously never even acknowledged it? It's hard to imagine what's going on in their brains, they seem so sincere, yet their logic is utterly alien.
     
  18. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

    Joined:
    May 19, 2017
    Messages:
    5,881
    Ratings:
    +3,778
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Makes sense to me. Maybe read it again without willfully looking for something to disagree with?
     
  19. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2012
    Messages:
    11,700
    Ratings:
    +2,257
    Reread my post 93 and notice how your reply does not relate.

    You asked a question that was already answered in my previous post. What about post 93 do you not understand and/or with what in that post do you disagree?
     
  20. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    6,124
    Ratings:
    +1,578
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    I understand where we crossed wires..

    I was writing in reference and in context to my response to Skeptic Thinker. I didn't realize a changed subject matter.
     
Loading...