Your position about Islam

[sun rise]

False

I have told you it is not about anti theism. It is about fixing something broke.


Fighting literalism is what you see there.

You define belief as "literalism". Well, I've not found semantic arguments to be very productive.

But if you want a nice piece of Quranic literalism, there's 8:61

Yusuf Ali: But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

 

[outhouse]

You define belief as "literalism". Well, I've not found semantic arguments to be very productive.

But if you want a nice piece of Quranic literalism, there's 8:61

Here was my point about required fanaticism.

Belief in the Koran - Koran


According to the Koran, a Muslim must believe the entire Koran, not just parts of it. Doubting any part of it is like doubting the whole volume. The same rule applies: all or none at all. Once a Muslim embraces the Six Pillars of Faith, he or she can begin practicing the faith that Allah teaches in His Holy Book.

I have found this to be pretty dang accurate, by every muslim I have debated here including staff.

Beliefs of Islam - Muslim Beliefs - ReligionFacts


There is no official creed to which one must adhere to be considered a Muslim. All that is required is to believe and recite the Shahada: "There is no God but God, and Muhammad is his Prophet."

And to me, following a pedophile warrior who plagiarized is beyond words I can use here.

 

[sun rise]

I wonder when the OP is going to come back and start answering questions on this thread.

I think at this point this thread is the 9,123,212 go around of the same basic set of arguments and has drifted so far from the OP that I doubt much will be done in that regard.

If the Islam DIR were green rather than blue and this thread were tightly moderated there, then we might see a different outcome.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think at this point this thread is the 9,123,212 go around of the same basic set of arguments and has drifted so far from the OP that I doubt much will be done in that regard.

If the Islam DIR were green rather than blue and this thread were tightly moderated there, then we might see a different outcome.

The OP only has himself to blame. He asked for our opinions on Islam. If most or many of those opinions are negative, that's not our problem.

 

[columbus]

I wonder when the OP is going to come back and start answering questions on this thread.

He only posted the OP this time yesterday and logged out a few minutes later. He hasn't logged back in since.
A hundred hostile posts to read. He may never bother responding.

Tom

 

[sun rise]

Just for fun, I spent a few seconds with google search and found the following about how Muslims look at interpreting the Quran. The details are not something I follow but the basic point is that the Quran is subject to real differences in how it's interpreted by Muslims Part 2: The Teachings of the Qur'an | The Qur'an in Islam | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org

There is considerable disagreement as to the meaning of exegesis, ta'wil, and it is possible to count more than ten different views. There are, however, two views which have gained general acceptance. The first is that of the early generation of scholars who used the word exegesis, ta'wil, as a synonym for commentary, or tafsir.

According to this view, all Qur'anic verses are open to ta'wil although according to the verse, "nobody knows its interpretation (ta'wil) except God," it is the implicit verses whose interpretation (ta'wil) is known only to God.

For this reason, a number of the early scholars said that the implicit verses are those with muqatta'ah-letters at the beginning of the chapter since they are the only verses in the Qur'an whose meaning is not known to everyone.

This interpretation has been demonstrated in the previous section as being incorrect, a view which is shared by certain of the late scholars. They argued that since there is a way of finding out the meaning of any verse, particularly since the muqattah-letters are obviously not in the same classification as the implicit verses then the distinction between the two (muqatta'ah and implicit, mutashabih) is clear.

Secondly, the view of the later scholars is that exegesis refers to the meaning of a verse beyond its literal meaning and that not all verses have exegesis; rather only the implicit, whose ultimate meaning is known only to God.

 

[Chev Chelios]

1- What is your position about Islam?

2- Do you have any questions that you would like having answers to?

3- Why do you think Islam is wrong?

1. The Koran is borrowed greatly from Jewish and Christian theology and it makes very big claims for itself, claims which it never substantiates. Its doctrine is inherently abrasive to core Western values and because it does not separate the church and state I believe that unless Islam is tamed and domesticated the disturbed cultures it shapes will continue to give rise to the human rights abominations we see wherever we look within the Moslem majority world (and increasingly here in the West also).

2. Many. From a theological perspective I wonder how Muhammad’s rape of a 8 year 10 month old girl, or the rape of Safiyah are explained. I am constantly perturbed to the fact Muhammad is said to be a peaceful and perfect man given the fact he raped and slaughtered so many in wars he started. I wonder why Islam claims to be perfect and perfectly clear yet for 1400 years so many Moslems seem to get this perfect and perfectly clear faith wrong because so many keep doing the same violent things all of the time. I wonder why they lie about verses such as 5:32 or 9:25 or try and say laws such as death for apostasy are ‘un-Islamic’. I wonder why so many Moslems claim the koran can only be understood in Arabic. This claimed fact surely means that most Moslems will not be able to understand what their own faiths pronounces seeing as most Moslems do not speak Arabic! I could go on and on.

3. I do not think it is any more right or wrong than any other faith but I do think what it espouses is more disturbing than any of the other faiths - its historical record bears testament to this fact. Also, for a religion of its size it has done very little for humanity and if it was to be removed from existence humanity would be have been put back very little indeed. As it stands, Islam is clearly a burden on humanity for both its followers and those who do not.

 

[LuisDantas]

The OP only has himself to blame. He asked for our opinions on Islam. If most or many of those opinions are negative, that's not our problem.

It is still not particularly constructive to overwhelm him, though.

 

[Majikthise]

I hope that only interested member about the topic would reply to it.

I have been pointed to create this thread in this section so I would be able to debate things.



Please note that some complex questions may require some time so I can get the answer to. I may also answer some question along with youtube videos.

I wish questions would be more directed towards theology and about Islam rather than being about Muslims and what they seem to do.

After all, not all muslims represent Islam. I would like to start with a misconception about Islam. This misconception is that we hate Jesus peace be upon him. As a matter of fact we don't and it is the other way round. Jesus peace be upon him is one of the greatest prophets in Islam and no one can be a muslim without believing in him and his miraculous birth from the mother Mary. There are far more misconceptions about Islam an here I would like to shed light and debate some of them


Two things I wish to hear from members so we can debate when there is a room for debate. I would be basing my answers from the Quraan when possible.

1- What is your position about Islam?
It will never evolve.

2- Do you have any questions that you would like having answers to?

Why islam hates freedom.

3- Why do you think Islam is wrong?

I have have hing out with a couple of muslims. Human life does w hold the same value as in western culture, period.

 

[Majikthise]

Im trying to answer this on my cell phone. It is screwed up.
Bottom line, islam is a culture of hate and extreme patriarchy. If that doesn't make sense, you are brainwashed.

 

[YmirGF]

It is still not particularly constructive to overwhelm him, though.

The denial is strong in that one though, so it really should not be much of a concern.

 

[Sabour]

1) I think Islam is alright. It seems to be going through a rough time right now.
2) What is its version of an afterlife, heaven vs. hell, etc.?
3) Can't say for myself if it is right or wrong.

I agree on you first line.

Regarding the second question, the afterlife is the reason we are on this earth. We are here being tested and every single deed would be counted. We are saved and granted heaven through our faith and work side by side. Neither Faith without good deeds nor good deeds without faith would save us. We have to believe in Allah and do the good deeds.

If you look through through the Quraan, you will always see the expression "those who do good deeds" after the word those who believe.

Here are some examples.

18: 107 Indeed, those who have believed and done righteous deeds - they will have the Gardens of Paradise as a lodging,

31:8 Indeed, those who have believed and done righteous deeds - they will have the Gardens of Paradise as a lodging,

However, we should note that the belief is not a blind belief. If you read through the Quraan, you will notice that Allah reasons with people and always challenges people to use their intellect and reflect on things so that they can see that there is in fact one Creator which is Allah and also Allah challenges people to bring even one chapter like the Quraan.

I hope this answers the question

 

[YmirGF]

However, we should note that the belief is not a blind belief. If you read through the Quraan, you will notice that Allah reasons with people and always challenges people to use their intellect and reflect on things so that they can see that there is in fact one Creator which is Allah and also Allah challenges people to bring even one chapter like the Quraan.

In regards to the first part of your comment one could only wonder what went so terribly wrong with people who are so steeped in intellectual thought and critical thinking. As to the second part, this assertion is always struck my funny bone. Why would anyone want to write a tomb as dreary as the Qur'an? Besides that is who, exactly, would judge any work put forward? How well do you think even the greatest literary effort would fare? Be honest. The challenge dooms any challenger... one way or another.

 

[LuisDantas]

I agree on you first line.

Regarding the second question, the afterlife is the reason we are on this earth. We are here being tested and every single deed would be counted. We are saved and granted heaven through our faith and work side by side. Neither Faith without good deeds nor good deeds without faith would save us. We have to believe in Allah and do the good deeds.

I know that Islam is not compatible with or even friendly to animism, but it is frightening how closely that mirrors Kardecist and particularly Roustaing Spiritism.

Are you aware that a certain Jean-Baptiste Roustaing is believed to this day by many Brazilians to have been the reincarnation of the Prophet, and his variety of Spiritism makes many of the same claims that Islam does (weird as I find that to be)?

 

[Sabour]

That is a nice set of questions right there. How separate should one be perceived from the other, and why?

I am not sure that I correctly understood the question, and I don't know if that answers the question, but the prophet once said no one of you will be a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself. According to some scholars, we are talking here about brothers in humanity, and not only brothers in Islam.

To which extent is Islam not the collective result of Muslim practice? If they are not one and the same, then why does Muslim practice matter?

As you know, we have the Quraan as the revealed Word of Allah to our prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. And Allah has chose prophets to share the message with humanity to worship Allah alone.

With that said, we should know that the sources of Islam are both from the Quraan and from our last prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. So no matter how many muslims do a thing, if it is not Quraan or Sunnah supported than it is not Islamic.

As portrayed in the Quraan and from the Sunnah, one can't be muslim enough because being a muslim 100 % means being perfect.

Sure you would find some violence and fighting back verses, but this is only because it is part of life. One will face some occasions when he is expelled out of his country for example. Fighting in that case for example, is not forbidden, as indicated in the Quraan. (this is just an example)

It is very much a Theistic, Abrahamic Faith. One that holds scripture in high regard. And one that assumes that everyone would convert ("revert") to it if it only gave the Quran and the Faith a fair chance at that.

As for scripture, it is because Quraan is the Word of Allah revealed to our prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and as you know Islam is all about worshiping God alone and associating no partners. God is the Almighty, the only perfect one. So we hold his Words in the highest regards.

As for expecting everyone to convert/revert, Do you think that God being the Creator of everything and the All knowledgeable doesn't know us. He knows us better than we know ourselves. Based on that, any thing from God is the right thing.

As for the "fair chance" part, God makes it clear through out the Quraan that things won't be easy and that people, even strong believers won't have an easy life, it is on the contrary.

chapter 29

2 Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried?
3 But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars.
4 Or do those who do evil deeds think they can outrun Us? Evil is what they judge.
5 Whoever should hope for the meeting with Allah - indeed, the term decreed by Allah is coming. And He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
6 And whoever strives only strives for [the benefit of] himself. Indeed, Allah is free from need of the worlds.
7 And those who believe and do righteous deeds - We will surely remove from them their misdeeds and will surely reward them according to the best of what they used to do.



Despite the fact that if it were easy or hard, God always asks people to believe in Him for this life is nothing and just a short time and the purpose of it is going to the eternal life after our death.

6:32 And the worldly life is not but amusement and diversion; but the home of the Hereafter is best for those who fear Allah , so will you not reason?

Which is to say, it is not for me, and it can never be a good fit for many people.

Should we discuss the reasons and see why it is not a fit?

How much of a conviction that converts are actually reverts do you have, and why?

There is a hadith saying Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “No one is born except upon natural instinct, then his parents turn him into a Jew or Christian or Magian.

Also Quraan 30:30

So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know. ( fitrah is like instict).

So we believe that God created all people as believers. This is the instinct inside of them, because as you know Islam is all about worshiping God and God alone. So one that happens, you feel in peace with yourself because that is your instinct, this is how Allah created you.

Because it demands belief in God and centers its doctrine on that belief.

Would that be not a problem if it were proved to be true?

Because it holds scripture in such high regard.

Doesn't it deserve to be in the highest regard if it is the Word of your Creator?

Because it expects everyone to be capable of belief in God or to benefit from it.

Benefits in this world is living in peace and having answers to questions and in in the afterlife it would be eternity in heaven. It explains our purpose. However, God never told us that it would be an easy rode in this life to do so. But God promises to facilitate us a way if we seek Him.

If you like watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4anqkegYklQ

Because it thinks of disbelievers as sinners.

Sinners would be those people knowing the truth but rather choosing not to believe. There are rights towards the creation and right towards the Creator. However there are some people who it was simply not there fault because they were not approached the right way or were never approached by the subject. For those people will have their own test later. However, God will judge each one accordingly for He knows intentions of people and knows each person.

Because it separates the religion from the practice.

I did not understand what you mean by that?

 

[Sabour]

My biggest objection to Islam is that it leaves itself open for criticism for misogyny. The separation of the sexes at the Masjid, for example, I find it to be an out of date custom that should be changed. I know that the Qur'an itself is very pro women but the religion as practiced falls short of supporting equality of the sexes.

I disagree with that.

First equality doesn't mean being the same because every sex has different traits and not the same things would be suitable for both.

Second, if you ask our muslim sisters, there will be many who prefer things being that way because this is what suits them.

 

[Sabour]

It started out great, then took a turn towards fundamentalism. From light to darkness.

I won't mind if you like to talk about it more in details because that seemed a bit vague for me.

 

[Sabour]

My position is that you delude yourselves, if you really believe in flying horses and magic black meteorites from Heaven.

These were at the times of the prophets where miracles were in place to prove that prophets are actually prophets.

We still have the Quraan miracle if you like to check it out.

Sure. In which direction do you pray if you find yourself around the antipode of the Mecca?

I will ask if I found my self in that situation.

 

[MD]

What proof do you have that Islam isn't just some story written by a group of people 1400 years ago?

 

[Sabour]

Sunrise123, Thanks for your very interesting answers.Let me please answer them

1. To me Islam is one of the great highways to God along with Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism and smaller religions. Anyone desiring to have true peace and love in his or her heart can walk any of these paths and will arrive at God's threshhold.

Well let me explain Islam first.

As muslims we believe that Allah sent us prophets. There are a total about 124000 prophets sent to mankind out of which 25 were mentioned in the Quraan. These prophets all came with the same message from God which is worshiping God alone. From these prophets there are Moses and Jesus peace be upon them. They both had the Torah and Injeel as revelations just like we have the Quraan as a revelation. However the difference is that Muhammad peace be upon him was the last prophet and the Quraan was the last revelation and hence it was preserved. If we look at the Quraan we find that Quraan has always been in the hands of the people and the language which it came with is still a living language. Whereas the bible is not the Injeel that was revealed because it has changed overtime and you find many different versions of the bible and not two are the same. So we believe that the message of all the prophets are essentially the same. Hence we believe that they all were muslims.

However, there is a major difference between Islam and Christianity as known today. Islam holds that there is One God while Christianity implies having three, no matter how you twist the explanation of the trinity. Do you think that holding these two different beliefs would both lead to the same place?

2. One of the messages of Muslims is that the Quran should be read in the original Arabic because of the problem of translation. My classic example of why I agree with that is 17:100-104 which, depending on translation, indicates that the existence of the state of Israel is by the will of God and is proof we're living in the end times. If someone is a Muslim but can't read Quranic Arabic, how can you be sure that what you're reading is really what the Quran as we know it today says? This also applies to Hudud punishments which some groups interpret vastly differently than others.

Many scholars have different translations and explanations of the Quraan. Believe it or not, even people who know Arabic sometimes face the same problem for the Arabic language is like a sea and a letter or a vowel ( which you see on the letter) can change the whole meaning of a sentence. So there are explanations from scholars and some hadith of the the prophet that explain the verses.

As muslims we are not free to interpret the Quraan as we want if something is vague. We must refer to different scholars to know the meaning. Similarly, there are different translations and different explanations for the Quraan in English.

Besides, why not learning Arabic

I would say Quraan is only the Quraan in Arabic in that in English it is rather like an interpretation.

3. Since there is no one Islam, at least according to practitioners (Sunni, Shi'a and others), "Islam" is not wrong in my view. Muslims can misinterpret what it says taking verses out of context. Some Muslims ignore Hadith entirely, some believe certain ones are weak and other believe the same ones are strong.

I've found that Muslims inclined to peace find the Quran enjoins them to peaceful behavior. Those whose hearts are filled with violence, find sections of the Quran which confirms their inner states.

In that regard, I'll note a recent article about using religious dialog to undercut the mistaken religious beliefs of the fanatics and terrorists. This Cleric Thinks ISIS Can Be Defeated With More Religion

So I'll state your question differently: how can a Muslim be sure that he or she is walking the true rather than the false path?

Well let me say that as Muslims we have two sources to determine what is Islamic and what is not. These two sources are from the Quraan and from the Sunnah.

Let me add that it is not for people to find what suits them in Islam. Islam is taken as a whole and it can't be taken as parts. You can't take the Jihad part and neglect other parts. You can't take the worship aspect and neglect other aspects for Islam is a complete system of life and one only part is taken, it won't be Islam anymore.

About ISIS, I would say that many muslims are mislead due to them not knowing their religion properly. From what I see and hear, ISIS is the complete opposite of Islam and I would say that Islam is not their motivation at all. It is rather what they are covering their acts with.

To answer your last question, I would say as Jesus peace be upon him said, seek the truth with your heart and the truth shall free you.

The first word of the Quraan revealed to out prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was "READ". That has to count for something.