Your position about Islam

[LuisDantas]

Let's be fair. Whatever the majority of Muslims, globally, may or may not believe, I have certainly met Muslims who self-identified strongly as Muslim, who were observant of the five pillars of Islam in most of the traditional senses, yet who were willing to believe that parts of the Quran are metaphorical and not literal, or who disagreed with traditional and literal interpretations of various parts of the text, and some of whom even believed that the text of the Quran considered canonical by Islam might not be the precise information revealed to Muhammad by Jibril.

I've probably met at least a dozen or more such Muslims, including an imam colleague of mine. I am told there are many, many more such out there.

It does seem like there are a plethora, a superfluity of literalists and fundamentalists among the world Muslim community, but I hardly think it's fair to say that every single one of the 1.6 billion Muslims on earth are literalist and/or fundamentalist. Even just statistically speaking, it would test the bounds of probability for there literally to be zero progressive Muslims.

That much is a given. However, it is still sensible and necessary to ask how well-equipped to deal with progressive thinking, literalism, fanaticism and violent extremism Islam is.

 

[outhouse]

Out of 1.6 billion muslims, how can you be sure? I don't know if Sufis believe that. Do you?

No there a different sect, but so mystical it still is literalist


Im welcome to a percentage. Even if guessed.


I have not met one that admits known history, not even staff here.


So far every muslim I have debated on history has had the same denial as a YEC debating evolution.

 

[outhouse]

However, it is still sensible and necessary to ask how well-equipped to deal with progressive thinking, literalism, fanaticism and violent extremism Islam is.

Just regular islam.

How much fanaticism and fundamentalism do typical muslism hold?

 

[LuisDantas]

Just regular islam.

How much fanaticism and fundamentalism do typical muslism hold?

Depends on how you define fanaticism. Most seem to be in fact very reasonable and loving people, if a bit on the mistrusting of strangers side.

As for fundamentalism... I fear there is little evidence that they even understand the concept at all well. Far too much of the doctrine and practice involves obedience to religious authority and religious expectations, with little in the way of critical or original thinking.

 

[Levite]

That much is a given. However, it is still sensible and necessary to ask how well-equipped to deal with progressive thinking, literalism, fanaticism and violent extremism Islam is.

I'm not sure we can judge that yet. If one looked at Judaism or Christianity at the equivalent points in their development, they might look hopeless. The situation is also exacerbated by the fact that in all religions, poverty and illiteracy virulently facilitate extremism; and many of the world's Muslims live in countries deeply stricken with poverty and illiteracy.

We have no idea how many of the world's Muslims are progressive now, or would be progressive given the educational opportunities to permit them to make their own analyses and determinations about their theological ideas even within the framework of their religious traditions as they stand, let alone with influence from outside the Islamic tradition.

I doubt we will really be able to tell whether there is an inextricable relationship between Islam and literalism/fundamentalism until a number of things in the world have changed, which will likely take several hundred more years anyhow. Which goes back to what I said in my first post....

 

[outhouse]

Depends on how you define fanaticism. Most seem to be in fact very reasonable and loving people, if a bit on the mistrusting of strangers side.

which means nothing.

my family is great, they are good people, but their personal beliefs follow fanaticism

As for fundamentalism... I fear there is little evidence that they even understand the concept at all well. Far too much of the doctrine and practice involves obedience to religious authority and religious expectations, with little in the way of critical or original thinking.

They do not have to follow or understand the concept, for their beliefs to fall under this definition.



Just like YEC we have in the family, great people, but no denying fanaticism and fundamentalism

 

[sun rise]

Well Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity. How violent were Christians 600 yrs ago? pretty violent from what I read. Talk about Literalist.

Before the Protestant Reformation the idea of a separate Church and State did not exist. The rise of European secular government is thus relatively recent.

When the Crusaders captured Jerusalem, they slaughtered men, women an children and were proud of it, counting it a good deed.

And of course there's recent history with millions of Jews murdered during WWII, at least a million Cambodians murdered more recently.

One can compare those millions against the relative handful that have been killed more recently for needed history perspective.

 

[sun rise]

And with all the hate and violence of historical christians no one flew a jet into building. I don't imagine there were any suicide bombers or train bombings either. Thank goodness today's muslims could never get a nuke..o i mean thank goodness they didn't have nukes 600 years ago )(

It's true that the thousands and millions were killed in low tech ways but that's hardly a mark of anything.

And obviously you are not aware the Pakistan, a Muslim country, has had nukes for decades and used exactly zero.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm not sure we can judge that yet. If one looked at Judaism or Christianity at the equivalent points in their development, they might look hopeless.

On the other hand, they did not have the benefit of the advancement in social sciences that we have today. Nor the example and learning of other faiths that exist now.

The situation is also exacerbated by the fact that in all religions, poverty and illiteracy virulently facilitate extremism; and many of the world's Muslims live in countries deeply stricken with poverty and illiteracy.

That, I agree, is an important consideration.

 

[outhouse]

Here was my point about required fanaticism.

Belief in the Koran - Koran


According to the Koran, a Muslim must believe the entire Koran, not just parts of it. Doubting any part of it is like doubting the whole volume. The same rule applies: all or none at all. Once a Muslim embraces the Six Pillars of Faith, he or she can begin practicing the faith that Allah teaches in His Holy Book.


I have found this to be pretty dang accurate, by every muslim I have debated here including staff.


Beliefs of Islam - Muslim Beliefs - ReligionFacts


There is no official creed to which one must adhere to be considered a Muslim. All that is required is to believe and recite the Shahada: "There is no God but God, and Muhammad is his Prophet."


And to me, following a pedophile warrior who plagiarized is beyond words I can use here.

 

[sun rise]

Find me one that does not believe Gabriel revealed the book to muhammad, and im all ears.

That is a requirement of islam, and it is all gods word to them.


So sorry but your wrong here, and I have talked to many muslims including my family that say your wrong.

Started a thread here about muslim literalism and not one muslim denied it.



Find me any muslim that thinks Abraham is a mythical character, that moses was mythical, and the rest of the mythology and we will talk.

less one point, everyone I know that follows history and science and is educated. is no longer really muslim.

You're complaint is that Muslims are not atheists. Well, you're right believers are not non-believers but that applies to any belief in God - Hindu, Christian, Muslim or Jew.

 

[Tabb]

Before the Protestant Reformation the idea of a separate Church and State did not exist. The rise of European secular government is thus relatively recent.

When the Crusaders captured Jerusalem, they slaughtered men, women an children and were proud of it, counting it a good deed.

And of course there's recent history with millions of Jews murdered during WWII, at least a million Cambodians murdered more recently.

One can compare those millions against the relative handful that have been killed more recently for needed history perspective.

Atrocities done in the name of Christianity are astounding. The amount of Jews and Muslims killed in Spain by Crusaders on their way is seldom mentioned. Does this make it ok for Muslims killing in the name of Islam. Of course not. But lets not act like this is a one sided tragedy.

 

[outhouse]

I doubt we will really be able to tell whether there is an inextricable relationship between Islam and literalism/fundamentalism until a number of things in the world have changed,...

Not to sure about that.


Education and knowledge does reduce fanaticism and fundamentalism.

It is not always effective, but it does have a positive effect, this cannot be denied.


You get me 10 muslims who are not literalist and I will show you 10 friends of mine. And these friends can create roll models for others on the fence. The more you have, the more you can combat ignorance.

 

[outhouse]

You're complaint is that Muslims are not atheists. .

False

I have told you it is not about anti theism. It is about fixing something broke.


Fighting literalism is what you see there.

 

[sun rise]

Let's be fair. Whatever the majority of Muslims, globally, may or may not believe, I have certainly met Muslims who self-identified strongly as Muslim, who were observant of the five pillars of Islam in most of the traditional senses, yet who were willing to believe that parts of the Quran are metaphorical and not literal, or who disagreed with traditional and literal interpretations of various parts of the text, and some of whom even believed that the text of the Quran considered canonical by Islam might not be the precise information revealed to Muhammad by Jibril.

I've probably met at least a dozen or more such Muslims, including an imam colleague of mine. I am told there are many, many more such out there.

It does seem like there are a plethora, a superfluity of literalists and fundamentalists among the world Muslim community, but I hardly think it's fair to say that every single one of the 1.6 billion Muslims on earth are literalist and/or fundamentalist. Even just statistically speaking, it would test the bounds of probability for there literally to be zero progressive Muslims.

I know and have read Muslims who are ask skilled in Fiqh, interpreting Islam, as Talmudic scholars are in interpreting the Torah. Seriously, the better ones could convince me that black is white - that the meaning of some scripture is really the exact opposite of the literal meaning.

 

[sun rise]

Not to sure about that.


Education and knowledge does reduce fanaticism and fundamentalism.

It is not always effective, but it does have a positive effect, this cannot be denied.


You get me 10 muslims who are not literalist and I will show you 10 friends of mine. And these friends can create roll models for others on the fence. The more you have, the more you can combat ignorance.

Actually most of the terrorists have been well educated. The poor and uneducated are typically too busy earning a meal.

 

[outhouse]

You're complaint is that Muslims are not atheists. .

Facing education and knowledge, is not atheistic.

I have Christian and x Muslim friend on this board that are not literalist, and don't argue this, as well as some Jewish members.


The problem is islam requires literalism.

Judaism not as much

And Christians are all over the board, but not violent

 

[outhouse]

Actually most of the terrorists have been well educated. The poor and uneducated are typically too busy earning a meal.

I am talking in context, and generally speaking, I am correct.

 

[MD]

1- What is your position about Islam?

2- Do you have any questions that you would like having answers to?

3- Why do you think Islam is wrong?

1) It's an Abrahamic faith, like Christianity with a history of wars, genocides and an assortment of other crap associated with it. It needs to go through an enlightenment like Christianity did to come up to speed to the 21st century. Too many fanatics, although the West is big time at fault for this.

2) What is the proof that the Quran is the actual word of God? Why do you not think it's metaphorical? Why do you not think it's just a book of stories?

3) Too much violence, fundamentalism and ignorance.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I wonder when the OP is going to come back and start answering questions on this thread.