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Your honest-to-goodness feelings on atheists.

Sabour

Well-Known Member
You don't seem to realize how absurd that statement is, my friend. :)

You might as well say that were a woman to have a penis, she would have a far easier time in the bathroom.

We atheists aren't theists with a "part missing".

Leaving aside the odd case of the person who thought she was atheist without truly being (they exist, but are definitely a minority among atheists), very nearly all of us simply have no use and no convenience for the idea of a God.

As a concept, it has positive uses... but not for everyone, not by a long shot. It is not even particularly safe even for Theists.


By my first sentence I meant that if someone came to an atheist and talk to him about the existence of God, he must provide a complete explanation of the subject.


Is that still absurd ? I am not sure you understood that in they way I meant it?


That, it is important to understand, makes no sense whatsoever for an Atheist. We are atheists, we are not pretending to be or attempting to be.[/QUOTE]

Still talking about the part where a discussion or a debate is going on. Normally, if an atheist is not interested in my subject, than maybe we will move on and discussing how Real Madrid won the champions league :D
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
By my first sentence I meant that if someone came to an atheist and talk to him about the existence of God, he must provide a complete explanation of the subject.

Most of us know far more of the subject than we need.


Is that still absurd ? I am not sure you understood that in they way I meant it?

Perhaps I didn't, but I think I did.

You seem to believe that it is for everyone's benefit to have belief in God, even if for whatever reason some people do not want it and even claim to be incompatible with it.

It is not a matter of presenting the matter in a skilled enough way, pal. Or of overcoming obstacles. Theism itself is the obstacle. It is just not for everyone.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
How do you feel about atheists?

From being on RF, defining labels gets grey. I'll address my comments to what I call atheist-materialists (that believe the physical is all that exists).


A) They are usually above average in intelligence.

B) Their view of life is depressing but they often have many ways to argue that that isn't so.

C) That many are started in their thinking by dumb sounding theism.

D) That they (like all of us) can become attached and defensive to their position and stop having healthy open-minded considerations.

E) That their reasoning to explain away a great body of paranormal evidence eventually becomes even more difficult to believe than the belief that some paranormal things are 'real' and don't fit into the physical-only worldview.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Most of us know far more of the subject than we need.

This means that people who think that must not be approached by the subject and believers should respect their opinion and not discuss that matter.



Perhaps I didn't, but I think I did.

You seem to believe that it is for everyone's benefit to have belief in God, even if for whatever reason some people do not want it and even claim to be incompatible with it.

What do you mean by, "for everyone's benefit"? If you mean it is better for the society if all were believers than I would say no for many reasons.


It is not a matter of presenting the matter in a skilled enough way, pal. Or of overcoming obstacles. Theism itself is the obstacle. It is just not for everyone.

How about we carry this discussion to my thread "agnositcs and atheists, your decisive moment" because I think we are going away from what this thread is addressing?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Do such extreme people exist at all? How many of them do you feel there are?

The majority of atheists in my experience.

What, if anything, do you believe that falls outside of the conventional colloquial meaning of materialism?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The majority of atheists in my experience.

That part about "belief in nothing but the material" is a deal breaker to me. I just don't think such people exist at all.

Far as I know, it is not really possible for a human being to be like that. Disbelief in God is a far less unusual thing, with far less consequences.

What, if anything, do you believe that falls outside of the conventional colloquial meaning of materialism?

I don't know what the colloquial meaning of materialism is.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
That part about "belief in nothing but the material" is a deal breaker to me. I just don't think such people exist at all.

Far as I know, it is not really possible for a human being to be like that. Disbelief in God is a far less unusual thing, with far less consequences.

There are tons of people like that. Here's the definition from Wikipedia.

In philosophy, the theory of materialism holds that all things are composed of material, and that all emergent phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material properties and interactions. In other words, the theory claims that our reality consists entirely of physical matter that is the sole cause of every possible occurrence, including human thought, feeling, and action.

There are tons of believers in that.

I don't know what the colloquial meaning of materialism is.

I think you do. You're a smart guy.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
There are tons of people like that. Here's the definition from Wikipedia.

In philosophy, the theory of materialism holds that all things are composed of material, and that all emergent phenomena (including consciousness) are the result of material properties and interactions. In other words, the theory claims that our reality consists entirely of physical matter that is the sole cause of every possible occurrence, including human thought, feeling, and action.

There are tons of believers in that.

That? Sure, I happen to be one even. If you allow for the existence of energy, that is.

I'm not sure that is quite the same as belief that "the physical is all that exists", though.



I think you do. You're a smart guy.

Smart enough to be honest about my ignorance, which is quite impressive. ;)

I truly do not know what the colloquial meaning of materialism is. I'm not even sure there is one.

Maybe it is one of those many words that have lots of meanings according to the circunstances, with no clear main or default meaning.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
That? Sure, I happen to be one even. If you allow for the existence of energy, that is.

Then you are a materialist in the standard use of terms.

I'm not sure that is quite the same as belief that "the physical is all that exists", though.

Sounds like an accurate short synopsis of the definition to me.


Smart enough to be honest about my ignorance, which is quite impressive. ;)

In this case I really don't think you are ignorant though. You have a distaste for my short synopsis.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
Well am not sure that is what he meant.

But to address what you have said, I think that if an atheist were to believe in God, he should find a complete answer for all his concerns. One complete answer that is coherent and one should not feel, at any point, that he is forcing himself to believe in something that doesn't make sense to him.
It's not quite exactly what I meant - I am aware that Islam doesn't share the doctrines of original salvation and salvation by grace...the fast track lane to heaven, but there are many similarities with Judaism and Christianity because of what they share in common, the big difference I see is 'we have a different book, and this one is the real divine revelation.'

If Muslim missionaries or evangelists showed up at my door in a similar manner as Christian missionaries, I would probably think of them as something similar to the Mormons...who also have a book that they claim is divinely inspired.
 

Nymphs

Well-Known Member
But to address what you have said, I think that if an atheist were to believe in God, he should find a complete answer for all his concerns. One complete answer that is coherent and one should not feel, at any point, that he is forcing himself to believe in something that doesn't make sense to him.

That's funny, because that is one big reason I became an atheist. My questions would answered in complete at all.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Then you are a materialist in the standard use of terms.

If you say so. In that case, I am sorry that you think so low of us.


Sounds like an accurate short synopsis of the definition to me.

It really depends on how clear it is that things that matter are not involved in the concept.


In this case I really don't think you are ignorant though. You have a distaste for my short synopsis.

Only in the sense that I find it misleading. And trust me, I am very ignorant about a great many things, many of them involving the supposedly colloquial meanings of words.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
From being on RF, defining labels gets grey. I'll address my comments to what I call atheist-materialists (that believe the physical is all that exists).


A) They are usually above average in intelligence.

B) Their view of life is depressing but they often have many ways to argue that that isn't so.

C) That many are started in their thinking by dumb sounding theism.

D) That they (like all of us) can become attached and defensive to their position and stop having healthy open-minded considerations.
I think these points describe a lot of what I have found unappealing about standard atheist/humanism that is widely promoted for a number of reasons:
1. Many atheist humanists are libertarians on economic issues, which earns them entry into right wing media and think tanks sponsored by wealthy billionaires.
2. Christopher Hitchens for one, went so far down the road of trumpeting "values of the enlightenment" which is taken as code word for European and Western Imperialism in much of the rest of the world, that some critics of Hitchens noted that his ideology wasn't new and radical, but rather a secular version of the old imperialism that had been promoted as "manifest destiny" or "divine right."

Most atheists don't come close to the extremes of Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins or similar promoters of "western values," but expectations of future human progress are as elevated as any faith-based ideology; except that in this case it's mostly undeserved faith in technological developments and human achievement. Virtually everyone - theist or atheist, seems to share faith in technology these days, but in atheist circles, we don't share expectations of future paradise after physical death, so faith that our descendents will have better futures has to substitute as the primary faith of atheist materialism.

And if you've been paying attention to what is happening globally in all aspects of environmental crises we have collectively created....especially increasing global warming, anyone who is seriously expecting a better future for our children and our children's children is living in denial or delusion, regardless of how rational and reason-based they claim their beliefs are! And referring back to point B, I see so little being done presently to prevent total disaster in coming decades, that I have no choice about feeling anxiety if not a true state of depression about the state of the world today. If I still shared the theology of my youth, I could casually disregard impending doom sometime in the future, since Jesus is coming back to fix our mess and put everything in order. But, being an atheist means being an adult about our predicament today.

There is no sky daddy or mommy coming into the room to fix up our mess! If we're not willing to find out what is necessary to ensure future survival and do EVERYTHING possible to make it happen...regardless of the immediate costs and inconveniences, then we are collectively already guilty of the greatest genocide of planetary history - because we will doom future generations of people, and very likely all non-microbial life on Earth.

And these dire future prospects are being increasingly discounted by many of the same people who claim to be forming their beliefs based on evidence, but have really created a secular faith in hope for change and hope for discoveries of new technologies, that it keeps them living in a fantasy bubble that is as separate from reality as the one created by those awaiting the 2nd Coming!

E) That their reasoning to explain away a great body of paranormal evidence eventually becomes even more difficult to believe than the belief that some paranormal things are 'real' and don't fit into the physical-only worldview.

The kind of materialism you describe here is physicalism...which begins from the premise that the forces and particles discovered so far in the Universe, are all that exist.

But, many materialists are naturalists - who don't by definition rule out what is presently called supernatural or the existence of undiscovered forces and particles (which I think is a good position considering what little is understood about dark matter and dark energy today).

But, as I see it, when we discover what dark matter, dark energy actually are, or find previously unknown supernatural forces, they are no longer supernatural! But are added to the body of information about the natural world.
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
B) Their view of life is depressing but they often have many ways to argue that that isn't so.

It isn't. ;) In fact, it's quite fabulous.


Do you see why I think your reply adds to the confirmation of my point B).


I was replying to a question as to what I really think of atheists. To me, their view is depressing. For many of us (atheists and theists) to be happy we need to find a positive outlook.

In my view, the knowledge that my departed loved ones are experiencing love and joy rather than nothingness is a positive to me. To know that no matter what current material situations exist in this life, greater things are ahead for all of us; not oblivion.

I believe my beliefs are subjectively better than atheism which I find depressing by contrast. However I have come to my beliefs by being as coldly objective as possible and not for subjective reasons.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
If you say so. In that case, I am sorry that you think so low of us.

Where did I say I think low of them? I even said in point A) that I think they are generally of above average intelligence. I disagree with them but don't think lowly of them.




It really depends on how clear it is that things that matter are not involved in the concept.

True, but I don't want to give the same long definition every time I discuss the same concepts too. I can see how you might think I meant it in a very narrow way; but that was not my intent.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Wow. Just wow.

Not only are people arguing that they're right, but they're also trying to convince the other side they're also happier.

I've never seen any real relationship between general happiness and religion. Dad was a happy atheist. My brother, not so much. Some religious people suffer from nasty depression, and try to convince everyone they're not. Sense of humour (or a lack of it) is a quality that both sides have and are sorely missing.

But hey, who is to say? There are studies on it though. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201211/are-religious-people-happier
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Not only are people arguing that they're right, but they're also trying to convince the other side they're also happier.

I was only speaking for myself. I find atheism depressing. And I explained why.

The thread title is " Your honest-to-goodness feelings on atheists.'.
 
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