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Your best argument that god exists

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Skwim, May 6, 2015.

  1. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Simple as that.

    Identify your god and convince us that it exists.
     
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  2. kepha31

    kepha31 Active Member

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    In 25 words or less?
     
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  3. lovemuffin

    lovemuffin τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος

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    And the Gentile says: I see you bowed down full of reverence, shedding not false, but rather heartfelt, tears of love. I wish to know who are you?
    Christian: I am a Christian.
    Gentile: Whom do you adore?
    Christian: God.
    G: Who is the God, whom you adore?
    C: I do not know.
    G: How can you so earnestly adore, what you do not know?
    C: Because I do not know, I adore.
    -- On the Hidden God, Nicolas of Cusa
    What is interesting to me about the "simple" question is that it proceeds from presuppositions which are already challenged by a great deal of the traditional experience of the Divine, both Christian and otherwise, which declares such a demonstration impossible. "No one has ever seen God". And from my own experience, I am sure I would completely fail: at identifying God, defining existence, and at demonstrating objectively the existence of that which is identified. For that reason it seems I should remain entirely silent, but the question reminds me so much of this text, I felt like quoting it anyway, even if it's non-responsive within the parameters of the question.

    It seems to me though that both a certain kind of skepticism, as well as much religious ideology, proceeds from these same assumptions about the identity of God which underlie the question. In their respective ways, I think they both miss what is worthwhile in the question about "God". Fundamentalist theology because it makes too rigid an ideology -- and too naive a theology -- out of an existential mystery. And a certain kind of atheism (or perhaps anti-theism) because it has borrowed too much of its presupposition about the question of God from those same fundamentalists.
     
  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist LGBT Stonewall historic marker

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    This should be interesting thread. :rolleyes:

    Here is my shot. Ha. Take it or leave it. ;)

    Life: "The ability to grow, change, etc., that separates plants and animals from things like water or rocks. The period of time when a person is alive. The experience of being alive." What distinguishes living beings from inanimate objects. That which is living.

    Spirit: "The force within a person that is believed to give the body life, energy, and power. The inner quality or nature of a person. A person."
    ~Courtesy of Ms.Merriam Webster.

    I don't know if Ms. Webster is Christian or not, but she sure does describe what (or who?) I define as "God."

    God is the life inside of you. The energy, force, or however you call it (or him?) that keeps you moving. It's a religious fancy word for your inner spirit. You.

    Convince you God exists?

    1. If you do not exist, then there is no spirit, no life, no God in you. No you, no life. No life, no God. We--all organic life--makes up God for without "Him" we are just bones an flesh. We don't exist as how "we" define ourselves as living beings, animals, and organisms. Life--all--are depended on God to be alive. The result, the evidence "he" exists.

    2. Culture and religious beliefs.

    Because you and more than millions of people exist, each person finds a way to define life as the spirit, force, or God (or Jesus? or Allah?) within them. We try to mirror who we are within ourselves (the spirit of life, Buddanature? Brahma?) or that which provides it (what some affectionately call the Creator). How do we define the characteristics of God? Culture, science, if you like, experiences, and observation.

    As my favorite Samoan writer puts it "God is in the food they ate, the water they drank, the air they breathed, the earth they trod and died on. The words they spoke. In the everywhere and the everything." Anne Wilson Shaef says "In many cultures, there is no word for God because God is life itself."

    Christianity: God exists through scripture.

    No, not a literal being floating in the sky. The life (as defined by Ms. Webster), or Holy Spirit that works through the people in the Bible (and gives people our callings today) are the evidence that there is something (or one) that exists no beyond us but within us who "gives us" life an IS life. Time period an whether or not it is written does not negate people existed then as we do now.

    Whether people actually walked water or Jesus coming back on chariots sounds like how we imagine the Creator (personified life) to interact with us. Those who "connect" with this Creator are those who will have and do have life within them. Those who o not (which, in my view is impossible), will not be alive (dead to sin). If you sin, or do things against the Creator's morals (how we are designed to live), you are harming yourself. By harming yourself you are distancing yourself from God. If you can feel that distance, then you know you are falling away from God. Mentally an physically=aka spiritually, depressing yourself from living who you are are. It's also basic psychology. God is not separate from us. He is what makes up who we are. Body, Mind, an Spirit. If they are not balanced and "you realize this" you experienced what people call "falling from God." an what evangelists call "the devil getting you."

    Gosh, there are so much evidence that "God" exists. The problem I see is that we want others to believe the "God of our definition." It will not work. I don't see God as an external being who literally create the heavens and earth. That is like a cartoon to me. Likewise, a Christian doesn't see God as life itself but separate from Creation. (God cant be the creator and the created at the same time, in other words) I'm referring to literalists.

    Not everyone will see God in the deer I see run in front of me. The trees that stand tall an the water that we came from, which is our source of life. Yet, everyone, even atheist, know that we live by morals define by our respective preferences, cultures, and the like. They on't have to attribute these goals an motivations to a source to know they have these goals an motivations. An because they do, there is a source. THIS is what people call God. As the above and more, they are the evidence of.

    --

    If you're looking for a strict Abrahamic answer, it depends on the person. I am a Catholic by vows. I know Jesus as a Spirit just as we have the spirit of God (aka above) in all of us, He does too. When we die in Christ, we die to ourselves. We all know this. We just don't all use the terms religious people do to describe a simple concept of living life to its fullest. If God (or Christ, or Brahma, or Buddha) didn't exist, we don't.

    Learn the language of the cosmos! Then you'll find God. :hugehug:
    God is love. (That is if you love life. Life--people, an all living, if you can find the love, even if it isn't blunt, loves you in return. Just got to learn how to see it.)
     
  5. Quagmire

    Quagmire Imaginary talking monkey
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    Why?
     
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  6. savagewind

    savagewind Something, not nothing
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    Look at all that humans can do with a little ingenuity and in a relatively few years. People of science are on the verge of making artificial people. But people are bound by physical laws and God is not. If God wants to exist God will exist.
     
  7. kepha31

    kepha31 Active Member

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    How about atheists give reasons why they don't believe in God. There is a good chance theists don't believe such a God exists either.
     
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  8. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
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    Brahman based on....The testimony of those who have experienced higher levels of consciousness that this is all a conscious One/Brahman. Also the teachings of Oneness from the advanced souls that have taken incarnation to further mankind's development. And to a lesser extent the failure of the most serious contender for belief, atheistic-materialism, to explain many anomalous (paranormal) events (except to deny their existence).
     
  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist LGBT Stonewall historic marker

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    Em. If you mean an external invisible entity floating apart from creation, I'm an atheist. Reminds me of a cartoon or some sort. Probably (no offense) why many people believe Christ is God. It takes the pressure of "trying to imagine an invisible being" to knowing a physical being exist who says He is One with His Father (hence, its interpreted as He is God). I admit, that makes sense hypothetically. Everyone is divine. Whether a human is perfect, I'd say no. Jesus included.

    My take....and I shall travel on.
     
  10. Nietzsche

    Nietzsche The Last Prussian
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    Just monotheists,or polytheists?
     
  11. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    use as many as you like.

    One issue at a time.


    'cause.


    Got more than one, then go ahead and give us your best shot.
     
  12. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein Pyrphóros ⚡ Lux Aeterna
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    This isn't a debate forum.
     
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  13. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Sounds rather vacuous.
    So what?

    In your case then, perhaps silence is best.

    What assumptions?

    ___________________________________________________
    ___________________________________________________

    Okay

    And why would anyone believe this?


    Nope. In the first place, I'm not convinced there's an inner spirit in me. Secondly, I see no reason to call it god---which I assume is your claim.

    Sorry, but your assertions that god fulfills some needs does not convince. Also, that many people define god in various ways fails to convince me such a being exists. At one time many people asserted that the earth was flat.

    And why should we believe the Bible?

    _________________________________________________
    _________________________________________________


    No more convincing than "if unicorns want to exist, unicorns will exist."

    _________________________________________________
    _________________________________________________



    So you feel that a subjective experience that's subjectivly interperted is worthy evidence? I don't. Moreover, if paranormal events occur why would it be necessary for a god to exist? Can't ghosts exist without a god around?
     
  14. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    The remarks by kepha31, Quagmire, and Nietzche were not attempts to convince anyone that a god exists, but essentially requests for clarification.

    My succeeding remarks to the others also don't constitute a debate.
    Debating requires at least three exchanges: a position, a counter to that position , and a counter to the counter. A statement and a critique of that statement doesn't constitute a debate. I presented a challenge: "Identify your god and convince us that it exists." The respondents tried to do so and I told them why I thought they failed. NOW, if they should respond to my reply this might very well create a debate. But I'll let you be the judge. Personally, I feel four exchanges should be the minimum.
     
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  15. savagewind

    savagewind Something, not nothing
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    Unicorns are physical and bound by law so, no, it is not the same.
    Intelligent life came about by mutation, but you say spirit could not have come about. That seems to me to be at both sides of an argument.
     
  16. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist LGBT Stonewall historic marker

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    Well, first, this isnt a debate forum. So, we can discuss about the question you ask, which I find interesting, but I cannot put it more simple than youre existing. If youre looking for a christian type answer, youll wont get anything different than you already know.
    I guess not everyone depends on the dictionary. Spirit is a religious word for just being alive. There does not need to be any religious connotation behind it. No God. No metaphorical language. You exist. Why not be thankful?

    Doesnt matter what you call it. Youre body is run by energy. Biology book can be a good rescource for what is moving you around. It does not need to be religious in nature.

    Life has no metaphysical language. Its biology and psychology. Biology keeps your heart pumping. Psychology is what "religion" and thr concept of God is made up of... our connection with the earth, unknown, something beyond, self, mind, and the list goes on.

    What your doing is asking evidence for a psychological concept ingraved in cultural and traditional history and mythology. People will answer in the langauge of their belief and culture. Look beyond the surface.

    The evidence is in your own existence. No God of any religion needed.
    -
    Also, you dont have to believe the Bible. As a discussion rather than debate, if you want a christian answer, the proof is just written by the callings people had in the bible the same as today. I dont believe in the Bible. That doesnt mean people dont have credible experiences even though I disagree with it as objective for all people.
     
    #16 Unveiled Artist, May 6, 2015
    Last edited: May 6, 2015
  17. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

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    That would make an interesting thread.
     
  18. Rick O'Shez

    Rick O'Shez Irishman bouncing off walls

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    The problem is that higher levels of consciousness are, well, just higher levels of consciousness, they are subjective psychological states. You can add a structure of religious belief around those experiences, but it's just belief, and nothing is proved.
     
  19. Rick O'Shez

    Rick O'Shez Irishman bouncing off walls

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    I'm not sure I see the difference.
     
  20. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist LGBT Stonewall historic marker

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    Between spirit and life? There is none. I dont like using spirit because it has a lot of religious connotations yet people understand what I am saying when I use the language they are familar with. I couldnt find a way to describe life, so I used the dictionary.

    Its all common sense. Thr Buddha says it so plainly. Just religions put a lot of stuff onto something so simple.

     
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