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Featured Young Hillsong Church congregant who mocked vaccine dies of COVID

Discussion in 'COVID-19' started by AlexanderG, Jul 23, 2021.

  1. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    We have liability insurance in case we kill or injure someone in an accident or damage property. You missed the point.
     
    #101 Wandering Monk, Jul 24, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  2. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    That might have been true with the first strain. But long COVID and Delta strains are absolutely kicking the butts of the young and (previously) healthy now. With long term damage to organs among other symptoms. It might be time to reevaluate the “pros” and “cons” as it were.
    I mean at first I was frustrated with the awfully slow rollout because of constant lockdowns and loss of jobs for my friends. And public health, obviously. Now, I’m thinking more about my own health. What if I end up in the ICU, you know? Bring on my vaccine already
     
  3. Shakeel

    Shakeel Well-Known Member

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    I'm much more isolated than most with or without covid. There is very little I can do to take more precautions and that would be too difficult to be worth it. Life goes on.
     
  4. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Unfortunately for me I have to go out in the public and work. I would prefer to be a hermit lol but I still have to make a living

    My work had to be open during all lockdowns and my employers are merely encouraging those who are in the first phase (right now people aged 40 and over) to get it. But I’m not 40. And right now things are pretty dire for my neighbour states. I mean they’re actually urging a reevaluation of recommendations for the AstraZeneca vaccine simply because the delta outbreak is too overwhelming. But the blood clot issue is enough to make me want to wait for Pfizer. Despite our near empty supply
     
  5. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    I understand that, but what does this have to do with the vaccination risk-benefit analysis?
     
  6. Left Coast

    Left Coast Purveyor of Pumpkin Spice
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    When you post information about how COVID isn't that bad and it's just like getting a cold, or this whole thing is a "Plandemic" orchestrated for government to control us, or vaccines "haven't been adequately tested," or anecdotal reports of people having bad reactions to vaccines, or myths about how vaccines make people magnetic, or give them COVID, or is the Mark of the Beast, etc etc etc etc...those are all discouragements away from vaccination. This is how it works.

    Because when you ask them their reasons for being unvaccinated, over and over again they circle back to one of the above sorts of ignorant lines of reasoning to explain themselves.

    There are some people who genuinely want to get vaccinated and haven't had a chance yet. I work for an organization that is still vaccinating people to this day. So yes, that's true. However, the majority of unvaccinated people have made their minds up, and their reasoning inevitably falls back to some sort of BS like what I outlined above.

    That's a weird reply because it was you who actually asked me a question.

    "Do we need to justify how ignorant people are so we understand why they made decisions contrary to our best interests?"

    The implication behind your question is that there must be other reasons besides ignorance to explain why people who make poor decisions. I was asking what you had in mind.

    Sure, and flat earthers may be incredibly intelligent as well. In my experience, though, that's not the case. There are exceptions to just about every rule of course; I was speaking generally of what I've observed.

    Cool. what were the cons? Did the CDC say the cons outweighed the pros? Was the CDC ever on the fence about whether the vast majority of people should be vaccinated?

    I was referring to whatever antivax stuff you've seen on YT, not the CDC website.

    So what other reasons would they have? Again, you can't say it's because they consulted science-based reputable sources, because the medical and scientific communities are in consensus that the benefits of vaccination outweigh the risks for the vast majority of people.
     
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  7. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    What is the risk of infecting someone in this instance?
     
  8. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    As far as science and government…both have been dishonest and wrong and then it’s our intentions were good. So excuse me for not going all in with the supposed vaccination that is a treatment that looks to help lessen the effects of Covid if you get it. Doesn’t prevent as far as I can tell and most people that got Covid got the mild case anyway.
    As far as the comments about global warming, I mean climate change, yeah I think the climate changes but haven’t noticed any changes to speak of the last 30 years and the science is always changing its position and allowed to so why trust what they say this year when they could change next year when the predictions fall flat.
    Evolution has changed too and now a new name bio-genesis cause Darwin was wrong and now moving to calling adaptation of the same species evolution.
    Science you say and now we don’t know a boy from a girl. With child is a fetus so you can kill the human and continue on like nothing happened.
    All these things can be pushed on people until they come into the presence of God and the fraud is exposed.
    Am I anti-vaccine - Not really and I don’t feel like being a test subject for it either right now.
     
  9. Left Coast

    Left Coast Purveyor of Pumpkin Spice
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  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    I don't take those debates, myths, and stories to heart. Some of it like 5G, magnetic (which I had to look up), and stuff like that I find silly. But the things that aren't silly is that the CDC Does list side affects that are just as severe if not more or less so than COVID regardless the rarity, and a pro/antivaxxer who reads this information shouldn't disregard it.

    But I don't know. I'm pretty neutral on it since I've always been skeptical with media anyhow.

    Like side effects?

    I can see why 5g and magnetic myths would be ridiculous, but not side effects.

    But all I see is generalizing, though. What is the inherent connection between unvaccinated people and how much they know or don't know-what they have watched and whether or not they believe any set myths?

    But that's so much of a generalization. The problem with generalizations is that you (anyone) can apply that to a boat load of people who don't fall under that. This isn't just a small area but worldwide.

    It's near impossible to discern unvaccinated (and vaccinated) people's motives to get or not get the vaccine. I mean, people who are vaccinated could have got it out of fear, being pushed, and so many reasons that are not logically assessed with facts.

    For example, I can't generalize so I would guess there are quite a few people who have the same information as vaccinated people, do not follow the myths and misinformation, "and" chose not to vaccinate.

    They could have read the same information and just, maybe because of their circumstance, morals, and facts made them decide one option as opposed to another. There are many reasons that people make alternative decisions the majority do not make.

    But cornering me doesn't invalidate my point, though. It's hard to generalize the entire global population just for the fact a small small percentage choose not to vaccinate.

    But not all people who choose not to vaccinate fall under this. You're speaking of a group of people that should not represent the whole of people who decide not to vaccinate.

    I don't know. Like I said, they changed the title. CDC probably had it when COVID thing first started but its not there anymore. I would have loved to read them though.

    I don't watch anti/provax stuff. I hate it when I watch a provaxxer video and in the middle or in the end it says something against antivaxxers. Then when I watch antivaxxers I see protests and silly stuff... so I don't take them to heart as people glued to these things do. Even on RF, I get off, go to work, and multi-task on the computer doing other things unrelated to this.

    The stuff I do look up is updates what our governor said, facts like how herd immunity works and the structure of the virus itself, things of that nature... but as soon as it terns to "you must get X or you'll regret it" I cut it off. It literally has nothing to do with COVID and vaccines. I just don't care for media tactics whether for the common good or just to sell a product.

    Of course I can. We don't know what people have and have not consulted and why people make the decisions they do.

    COVID, heart problems, and blood clots sound just as much serious regardless the rarity. But choosing not to vaccinate because of the rarity isn't about ignorance and misinformation. CDC takes it serious regardless the rarity, so I can see why people are hesitant or don't want to vaccinate. It may be a wrong decision-moral wise-but not based on misinformation and myths.
     
  11. Left Coast

    Left Coast Purveyor of Pumpkin Spice
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    Incorrect. The vaccines both drastically reduce your chances of getting the virus and also make your symptoms milder if you do get it. The vast majority of people still contracting COVID are unvaccinated folks.

    COVID-19 Vaccine Effectiveness Research | CDC

    See @Unveiled Artist? This is what I'm talking about.
     
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  12. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    There are no solutions that are not in your own hands. If you are not vaccinated the chances of death or long vaccine sky rockets.
    This is even worse where most restrictions are lifted.
    Pro vaxx are not the problem. the ball is entirely in your own court.
    You are free to choose to live or die entirely by your self, but if you are not vaccinated you will take others with you,
    Covid is not going to go away.
    What are you going to do about it?
     
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  13. Left Coast

    Left Coast Purveyor of Pumpkin Spice
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    There are potential side effects to literally any medication or medical treatment. Have you ever taken ibuprofen or acetaminophen before? Check out some of the serious side effects listed for them.

    What medical professionals generally recognize is that the chances of such extreme reactions to the COVID vaccine are very rare. The typical side effects are a sore arm and feeling a little under the weather for a day or two.

    See above. The side effects are almost entirely mild and last a day or two.

    Again, the connection that I've now explained a couple times is that most people who are unvaccinated, in my experience, are that way because they are ignorant of the actual scientific data we have, such as efficacy and safety data, or they believe outright conspiracy theories that are ridiculous. There may be exceptions to this rule.

    I don't see how it's near impossible at all. All we have to do is ask people why they're not vaccinated. Have you done that?

    You can guess that all you want, sure. Are you right?

    Again...like what?

    I'm not "cornering" you, UA. We're having a conversation. But the thing is, you're making thin excuses that I think on some level you recognize are thin. You keep insisting "there could be other reasons," but can't come up with any.

    As I already linked you to, the CDC still, right now, has a page up that lists potential vaccination side effects. It's not hidden or censored.

    People change the titles of webpages all the time, especially on a public health page where data and circumstances change and update. That doesn't really tell us anything. Since the vaccines were made available to the public, the CDC's messaging that I've seen has consistently indicated that the benefits outweigh the risks of vaccination for the vast majority of people.

    Actually, again, we literally do. People are capable of explaining their reasons. And they have. Routinely. So no, again, you cannot say someone made a decision to not vaccinate themselves that was based on the recommendations of organizations like the CDC or WHO, because those organizations have consistently encouraged people to get vaccinated against COVID.

    I'm not sure how you can say "regardless of the rarity," because clinically speaking the rarity is entirely relevant. As the CDC has itself explained, the rarity of serious side effects is enough for them to say the benefits outweigh the risks of vaccination. E.g. CDC says benefits of J&J Covid vaccine still outweigh risks after reports of rare neurological disorder (cnbc.com)

    It is though, because it suggests that such a person doesn't understand how to assess risk. The risk of serious complications from getting COVID are higher than the risk of serious complications from getting the COVID vaccine. If they don't know that, again...that is an expression of their ignorance on that subject.
     
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  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    The US government is increasing incentives, censoring information that doesn't push the vaccine, and other methods to get people to vaccinate. That seems to be their solution even to bring up vaccine passports.

    But your comments doesn't solve the problem just throws more oil onto the fire, so to speak. There's got to be other tactics than accusations (for the benefit of others or not) for people to vaccinate. They don't solve anything.
     
  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    Question. Before the vaccine, all people who got COVID were unvaccinated. Now the majority people are vaccinated, it doesn't change that unvaccinated people may get COVID. Their risk didn't increase because they chose not to vaccinate and if their circumstances didn't change (say travel, be around people with COVID, etc) they are ideally at the same risk.

    I'm not sure what point that proves?

    How does the probability of catching COVID increase for unvaccinated people just because majority of people vaccinate (that is not relative to the vaccinated)?
     
  16. Left Coast

    Left Coast Purveyor of Pumpkin Spice
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    It demonstrates that the vaccine prevents people from getting COVID. Which is what ElijahElisha said wasn't the case.
     
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  17. F1fan

    F1fan Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Republicans politics have adopted the thinking process of creationism, and done so very successfully. It both was a way of thinking that many conservatives already relied on, and the dogma does not have to work around facts or reality in any way.
     
  18. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Shrugs. I tried.

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    I honestly never read, heard, or watched any antivaxxer say the vaccine does not work but more so they don't trust it (apart from @ElijahElisha 's comment). It's still in the experimental phase so I can see why some people wouldn't trust it for that reason alone. Maybe they are assessing their risk of catching COVID in relation to the effects of the vaccine and the fact they are still learning about it (too much of an X factor involved).

    I think I got the consensus now that I think of it, there is so much that we don't know than we do know and the minority (generalizing) more than likely rather see have it in the reverse. It just depends on the person... some people feel its worth to take the risk based on the facts they know so far and others know there is much more to learn that may or may not invalidate those facts in the long term. We just don't know.
     
  19. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Which is what I was saying, even if you get vaccinated you can still get it and not immune which is what vaccines are supposed to do.
     
  20. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    You don’t? That’s all I have ever seen from the anti vaxx movement. Like all the time. I’m anti social even and I’ve always encountered such rhetoric from them. Do you only encounter the more PC approved responses from anti vaxx types, I wonder?

    On and offline this is what I’ve always encountered
    “Vaccines cause autism”
    “Vaccines are a government conspiracy to control us”
    “Vaccines don’t prevent disease”
    “Vaccines aren’t necessary for kids disease” (usually referring to chicken pox.)
    “I lived through small pox. Y’all are a bunch of wimps/sissies.”

    Hell yesterday in Sydney there were literal protests in response to lockdown measures and vaccines calls. They even had signs that literally said vaccines don’t work or accusing the vaccine of being conspiratorial or COVID conspiratorial. I saw it with my own eyes
     
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