• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

You shall not boil a kid in its mother's ?????

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Concerning Kashrut, the explaination given in the Torah is that Benei Yisrael are supposed to be a set-apart nation, or distinct. Not just practices, but also in concept of how those practices are carried out and the societal and philosphical focus around them. One idea that has been "proposed" concerning Shehhitta is a point of view from anatomy. See below.

1712891027239.png


1712891068390.png
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I have only this: This is reaching but does a cow make enough milk to boil its own calf in? It would have to be a small calf. Perhaps this could be interpreted as a figure of speech saying not to cook them when they are young with implications about other things. If it is written three times I don't know why, though I was told that anything written three times was very significant. I've no idea why, but perhaps it is about more than cows. By extension if you may not cook a calf you certainly may not kill a human child. This is not how the verse is explained though. It is a dietary restriction not to combine meat with milk.
Probably means cooking whatever cut of meat in or with the milk, like for breading or stews or whatever.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Concerning Kashrut, the explaination given in the Torah is that Benei Yisrael are supposed to be a set-apart nation, or distinct. Not just practices, but also in concept of how those practices are carried out and the societal and philosphical focus around them. One idea that has been "proposed" concerning Shehhitta is a point of view from anatomy. See below.

View attachment 90397

View attachment 90398
How do they reason it's painless? It doesn't explain how any of that works. From my understanding of anatomy either scenario wouldn't be any different from cutting a human's carotid and them bleeding out. That's not exactly painless, especially when we add in fear and stress cause pain.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
How do they reason it's painless? It doesn't explain how any of that works. From my understanding of anatomy either scenario wouldn't be any different from cutting a human's carotid and them bleeding out. That's not exactly painless, especially when we add in fear and stress cause pain.
It starts like this.
  1. The Creator gave the Yisraeli people the Torah at Mount Sinai.
  2. There are some of the Torah, in the written text, where no specific reason is give for particular mitzvoth except that it makes the Yisrael people distinct.
  3. Outside of that we can try to determine advantages or speculation of what we were given.
  4. One aspect of speculation is based on the anatomy of kosher animals. Concerning this particular issue cutting, with a very sharp knife by a skilled Jewish Schohhet, of the Carotid artery affects the blood flow to the Vertrabal artery which has been found to happen in a way to quickly cut off the blood flow the brain.
    • The above situaiton is not the case with the anatomy of non-kosher animals like horse's and pigs. A cut to their Carotid artery does not have the same affect, thus a cut would have to happen on both arteries at the same time to have same effect.
    • This is like saying, "It is as if the animals that are kosher fit the method of shehhitta that Jews were commanded ot use.
All of the above goes back to the idea of commands being given to make the Jewish people distinct.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
How do they reason it's painless? It doesn't explain how any of that works. From my understanding of anatomy either scenario wouldn't be any different from cutting a human's carotid and them bleeding out. That's not exactly painless, especially when we add in fear and stress cause pain.
Concerning the fear and stress issue. Jewish law forbids us from causing the animal fear and stress. There is actually requirements about how the animal is prepared for the process. Further, it has to be done quickly w/o taking a lot of time give the animal the ability to be stressed by the procedure. Also, there are very strict requirements about what type of knife can be used and how it must be EXTREMELY sharp and checked in particular ways. Further, the process does initiate a precipitous drop in blood pressure and blood perfusion of the brain, bringing about a (permanent) loss of consciousness

Concerning human anatomy, you have to remember that humans are not kosher. Thus, if you look at the anatomy it has the same issue as non-kosher animals when it comes to blood flow to the brain.

1712929012429.png
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Concerning the fear and stress issue. Jewish law forbids us from causing the animal fear and stress. There is actually requirements about how the animal is prepared for the process. Further, it has to be done quickly w/o taking a lot of time give the animal the ability to be stressed by the procedure. Also, there are very strict requirements about what type of knife can be used and how it must be EXTREMELY sharp and checked in particular ways. Further, the process does initiate a precipitous drop in blood pressure and blood perfusion of the brain, bringing about a (permanent) loss of consciousness

Concerning human anatomy, you have to remember that humans are not kosher. Thus, if you look at the anatomy it has the same issue as non-kosher animals when it comes to blood flow to the brain.

View attachment 90403
Ok, so no real links but only speculation.
By the way, those animals still know fear and pain. They say lethal injection is painless, but it's not.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Ok, so no real links but only speculation.
By the way, those animals still know fear and pain. They say lethal injection is painless, but it's not.
It all depends on how you want to look at. At the end of the day the claim is that Jews were given a specific / distinct way to do things. As a side note part of the goal in the process of Shehhitta is to cause the animal as little distress as possible and there has been research to show it is greatly minmized by the process of Shehhitta. This is also the case when you look at animals in the wild that are hunted are treated by the animals that hunt them.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I recently refound the Samaritan web-site that was managed by Benny Tzedaqa. This is an interesting peice about the Samaritans also seperate milk and meat.

1717927756199.png

1717927790674.png

1717927836139.png

1717927872127.png
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Still, I'm not convinced that scribal error should be discounted.

Thoughts?

Milk and meat are a prohibited mixture. If one analyzes all the prohibited mixtures, milk-and-meat match the pattern, fat-and-meat do not.

If one wants to break the law and discredit the Jewish religion, one would be naturally drawn to, attracted to, the idea of a scribal error like this as some sort of "gotcha".
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
If one wants to break the law and discredit the Jewish religion, one would be naturally drawn to, attracted to, the idea of a scribal error like this as some sort of "gotcha".

To be honest, the possibility was brought to my attention by a senior, and *well respected, rabbi during Torah studies.

* although perhaps not by you who, along with many others, seem to find textual criticism discomforting.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
To be honest, the possibility was brought to my attention by a senior, and *well respected, rabbi during Torah studies.

Being a Rabbi doesn't mean that they want to follow the law. Well respected by you probably means they deny the foundations of the religion and are working to undermine it.

* although perhaps not by you who, along with many others, seem to find textual criticism discomforting.

Not discomforting. It's weak and ignorant. It does not apply any criticism towards itself.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
well respected, rabbi

Did this well respected Rabbi compare the milk+meat mixture to the other prohibited mixtures? Did they explain the spiritual characteristics of meat and milk? Are they capable of speaking in terms of spiritual characteristics and attributes? Or are they completely materialistic?

Birds of a feather fly together. You respect the Rabbi and the textual critics because they validate your own agnostic+atheism. I respect Rabbis who present both sides and do not avoid them. If a Rabbi is themself an agnostic+athiest that is not immediately a disqualifier for my respect, however, I have yet to meet an agnostic+atheist which is able to articulate spiritual concepts properly. They simply don't have the motivation to learn these concepts. They do not value them. This means that, even though they are a Rabbi, they are clueless, ignorant of the underlying reasons and explanations for why we Jews do what we do when we do them.
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
The law:

The mixture of meat and dairy (Hebrew: בשר בחלב, romanized: basar bechalav, lit. 'meat in milk') is forbidden according to Jewish law. This dietary law, basic to kashrut, is based on two verses in the Book of Exodus, which forbid "boiling a (goat) kid in its mother's milk"[1] and a third repetition of this prohibition in Deuteronomy.[2] [source]​

First, a couple of Hebrew terms:
  • חָלָב (n-m) heb; halav: milk
  • חֶלֶב (n-m) heb; helev: fat
One website notes:

The commandment not to cook a kid in its mother’s milk appears three times in the biblical text with the exact same wording. It is important to note that the MT reads ḥălēv (milk) and not ḥēlev (fat). If anyone wants to argue that the prohibition is about fat and not milk one has to prove without a doubt that the MT uses the wrong reading (Some Egyptian Karaites who didn’t read Hebrew very well made this mistake in the past). However, Jewish reading traditions, Samaritan, and Greek traditions show it is milk. Hence, the discussion will only be based on this common reading and not the speculation of what may have been (Propp, 2006, 286). [source]​

I know nothing about Egyptian Karaite Hebrew literacy. Still, I'm not convinced that scribal error should be discounted.

Thoughts?
If it's not a translation issue, is there supposed to be a rational explanation for this?
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
The laws of kashrut have nothing to do with health or safety. For example, there is absolutely nothing unhealthy about eating horse.

While we really don't know the purpose of these laws, there is one possibility that makes most sense to me -- that the laws of kashrut are there to prevent socialization between Jews and non-Jews. Socialization over food would lead to intermarriage, and intermarriage leads to idolatry. Let's say Joe Jew goes to the local pizza parlor and there meets Betty Baptist. They get married, and then the next thing you know, Joe has a Christmas tree in his living room.
It's a slippery slope.
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
How do they reason it's painless? It doesn't explain how any of that works. From my understanding of anatomy either scenario wouldn't be any different from cutting a human's carotid and them bleeding out. That's not exactly painless, especially when we add in fear and stress cause pain.
It comes from a time before the invention of a central nervous system. Stress and fear are known to be present in all slaughterhouses, however the killing is to take place. Treat yourself to some secret camera videos on youtube.
 
Last edited:

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Yeah, they love being slaughtered.
I don't think animals have any concept of love in that regards, especially if you look at how animals consume each other in the wild - it is way less fierce to reduce the time it takes for them to pass than to swallow them up to slowly be digested or ripping them apart while they are still alive.

Besides, even without Jews being in the world humans have been eating meat for a long period of time. In some cultures there is a conept of reducing the animals suffering as much as possible and making sure not to waste anything. This coupled with not overconsuming any resource. It is a part of the natural world and what a person does to reduce their environmental harm is admirable in all angles.
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
I don't think animals have any concept of love in that regards, especially if you look at how animals consume each other in the wild - it is way less fierce to reduce the time it takes for them to pass than to swallow them up to slowly be digested or ripping them apart while they are still alive.

Besides, even without Jews being in the world humans have been eating meat for a long period of time. In some cultures there is a conept of reducing the animals suffering as much as possible and making sure not to waste anything. This coupled with not overconsuming any resource. It is a part of the natural world and what a person does to reduce their environmental harm is admirable in all angles.
Not from my angle. Feel free not to speak for me.
 
Top