You MUST be baptized in JESUS name!

[Ceridwen018]

destinata7,

Death by old age and disease also causes suffering so that would obviously be eliminated in your scenario. So we have a happy happy existence where everyone smiles at each other for long spans of time while a host of other unaddressed problems creep up: People so weary of being happy they want to commit suicide, without mood inflections they can't even tell what happiness is anymore; everone's rich, of course, and because they have nothing left to earn they end up with no goals, plans, or ideas; populations soar and the crowding is disgusting; everyone is intelligent as well so as to prevent the unhappiness of differentiality, with nothing better to do with their plush lives they happily plot revolution; animal populations soar (you can't have the unhappiness in your world of peoples favorite animals and pets dying); animals (none of which are carnivorous anymore) become so passive they lose their mating extincts (which can cause alot of violence and unhappiness in the animal kingdom anyway not to mention the human realm); everyone looks cloned (you can't have the unhappiness of ugly or different looking people in your world now can you?); people even act the same (wouldn't do to have nerds) and give the appearance of almost acting robotic they are so alike; people don't think of God or need God; overpopulation and vegetarianism causes the agricultural sector to fall drastically behind.......everyone starves to death!!! Great job, Ceridwen!

Yikes! Ok, allow me to clarify. Since I am god, I hereby decree that all humans and animals will be perfectly content and happy, as well as keeping their individuality and free-will. It would be an existence in which one would not tire of being happy. People are still motivated by goals, but their goals come secondary to what really matters in life, and therefore do not cause problems in their happiness. People think of god constantly, because he lives on earth in close contact with them, caring for them and helping them. Overpopulation and Vegetarianism to not pose problems, because I am god and I make sure they don't. I do all I can to help maintain a smoothly running earth for my children to reside in happily.

Really, It's like heaven. I don't know what your exact views are on the afterlife, but if god can create a successful eternal paradise without all of these problems, why can't he re-create it on earth, only with the introduction of death so that one may move into the eternal state?

Ah, but you did say that you had a problem with pain and suffering....or do you like it when people are in pain and suffering as long as you're convinced there is not God? I'm sure that you don't approve of all the violence and murder (please agree with me here so I know you're not a phycho) happening in the world today.......you contend that as long as there is not God you're cool with this??? Hmmmm.....

I have problems with pain and suffering and wish to do all I can to lessen them on any plane, god or no god. Without god, pain and suffering are natural and, (as you pointed out in your first quote), necessary components to successful human life. We do what we can to lessen them, and at times succeed, but the fact of the matter is that they are a part of this world and must be accepted. When god enters the picture, everything changes for me. If god is the creator, then that means that he also created pain and suffering, but why would he do that? If he is all-powerful, then he has the ability to create a world where we all live important and meaningful lives with free-will, yet do not have to come in contact with pain and suffering. You say that such a world would become boring to those living in it, but perhaps we have pain and suffering simply because it became boring to him watching it?

I don't believe that when God is introduced, randomness is done away with. Without some randomness, everything is ascribed to fate....and I personally do not believe in fate! For instance I believe in God, but I do not believe that God choses to influence the rouletted wheels at all the casinos.....I believe these are almost always random(unless a Jedi is manipulating the little ball).

Do you believe that god has a 'plan'? Do you believe that everyone is included in god's plan and that god is omniscient? If so, it is not logical to conclude that randomness exists. God knows everything that will happen-- free-will doesn't make sense because god already knows what choice you will make. If god doesn't know, then he is not all-powerful, and if he is not all-powerful, that would explain the existence of pain and suffering.

Why don't you think that god controls outcomes at casinos? Because they seem small and insignificant to you? I say, that if god controls one thing, he controls everything. Even if he were to say that the casino games could control themselves, he is still indirectly in control of them, because they reside in his world and follow his rules...they also must fit in with his 'plan'.

Why would cancer be created by God? I don't believe that God created cancer.

Then who did create cancer? It seems to me that you are attributing all the good to god but none of the bad, and that doen't make any sense.

Heh, heh--I don't know why god would create cancer either, but that definately seems to be the heart of the argument here.

Riiiiiight, all this matter just decided to exist out of the blue and started creating a wonderful universe out of sheer randomness.....but you contended in an earlier post that atoms and such aren't so random at all, does it seem as though they are maybe "programmed" for their non random like behaviour? The force that "programmed" the atoms is the same source that I call God and you call science!

So god just decided to exist out of the blue and start creating things?

as far as who to attribute the patterned behavior of matter to-- science or god-- we're just battling over semantics here.

Or is there something specifically instilled into the nature of humankind that causes them to pursue the spiritual......and sometimes that pursuit becomes expressed in different ways?

You could say that. The idea of god certainly fills emotional needs, as well as gaps in our understanding of our environment. Humans also have spiritual needs which are easier to fullfill with something like god. However, just because people would say they 'need' god, doesn't mean god exists. We can't will something into existence just because we want it.

That's an interesting thing to keep in mind-- the need for god came first, before the idea.

If you ascertain, as one of the fundementals of psychology, that man creates God and the supernatural to fill in for areas of need in his wretched life. Transcendentally, if a need is being fulfilled and the effect is real, then the cause of the effect is just as real as anything else in this world (or maybe even more so).

Yes, I see what you're saying here and I agree. Those same needs can also be fullfilled without god, however, and it is with that knowledge that we can say god is rendered useless.

What would you consider ample proof of God, Ceridwen? What would God have to do to prove that Am exists to you?

Appear in front of me and talk to me, maybe...allow himself to be tested by scientists perhaps...I havn't really thought about this question--I should though.

Again, the misunderstandings of a temporal, free-will universe......

Are you saying that you don't believe we can have free-will without pain and suffering?

The misconception of the nature of God's omniscience is something else that causes alot of philosophical problems as well.

Haha, enlighten me!

Phew! I think that should do it for now! Eagerly awaiting your replies!

 

[destinata7]

destinata7,

Yikes! Ok, allow me to clarify. Since I am god, I hereby decree that all humans and animals will be perfectly content and happy, as well as keeping their individuality and free-will. It would be an existence in which one would not tire of being happy. People are still motivated by goals, but their goals come secondary to what really matters in life, and therefore do not cause problems in their happiness. People think of god constantly, because he lives on earth in close contact with them, caring for them and helping them. Overpopulation and Vegetarianism to not pose problems, because I am god and I make sure they don't. I do all I can to help maintain a smoothly running earth for my children to reside in happily.

Your world is a very contradictory world, Ceridwen. People have free-will, but no choices to chose from.....free-will entails the right to be unhappy. No choice to be a vegetarian or not? People motivated by goals when they already have everything they need to be perfectly content? Overpopulation and vegetarianism won't be a problem because you'll make sure they won't? Sounds like great world planning...

Really, It's like heaven. I don't know what your exact views are on the afterlife, but if god can create a successful eternal paradise without all of these problems, why can't he re-create it on earth, only with the introduction of death so that one may move into the eternal state?

The misconception here is that "paradise" in heaven is similar in any way to a human "paradise" on earth. The Bible makes the distinction in I Cor. that what is flesh is flesh and what is spirit is spirit. There's no male or female in heaven. In the Heaven of heavens (we call the First Domain) there are only spirits (much different type of heaven than you are referring to). I think there is much confusion as to the whole concept of heaven. There is more than one type of heaven listed in the Bible.

If you want an eternal heaven here on earth the first thing you would have to do away with these physical bodies which are so limited in capacity. Then you would have to do away with the physical confines of the earth itself. Well I'll be......it's starting to look more like heaven all the time!!!!

Ah, but you did say that you had a problem with pain and suffering....or do you like it when people are in pain and suffering as long as you're convinced there is not God? I'm sure that you don't approve of all the violence and murder (please agree with me here so I know you're not a phycho) happening in the world today.......you contend that as long as there is not God you're cool with this??? Hmmmm.....

I have problems with pain and suffering and wish to do all I can to lessen them on any plane, god or no god. Without god, pain and suffering are natural and, (as you pointed out in your first quote), necessary components to successful human life. We do what we can to lessen them, and at times succeed, but the fact of the matter is that they are a part of this world and must be accepted. When god enters the picture, everything changes for me. If god is the creator, then that means that he also created pain and suffering, but why would he do that? If he is all-powerful, then he has the ability to create a world where we all live important and meaningful lives with free-will, yet do not have to come in contact with pain and suffering. You say that such a world would become boring to those living in it, but perhaps we have pain and suffering simply because it became boring to him watching it?

To do away with physical pain is an enigma in itself. Why do we have pain? It's our physical bodies' way of telling us that something is causing damage to it so that we can stop the damage! I know a man that lost all feeling in his legs because of an accident. He was passing time with one of his favorite occupations....welding! By the time his nose picked up the sickening scent of melting flesh his legs were mangled beyond recognition. Pain serves a purpose!

Also, the same senses that allow you to feel pain also allow you to feel pleasure. In a free world anything can be abused: fire which gives us some of our most awesome benefits can be used for destruction; water that you need for life on this planet can be used to torture.........you get the point.

We live in a beautiful free world! Good will overcome evil. There are far more good people on this earth than evil.....the evil just get more press! Keep in mind the definition of "good" is subject to relativity of perspective and comparison. The Bible says that Noah was "perfect in his generations". As far as people were those days.....he was the cream of the crop! None is truly good but God....because God is pure love....and love is oh so good!! However, there are degrees of love and consequently levels of good.

I don't believe that when God is introduced, randomness is done away with. Without some randomness, everything is ascribed to fate....and I personally do not believe in fate! For instance I believe in God, but I do not believe that God choses to influence the rouletted wheels at all the casinos.....I believe these are almost always random(unless a Jedi is manipulating the little ball).

Do you believe that god has a 'plan'? Do you believe that everyone is included in god's plan and that god is omniscient? If so, it is not logical to conclude that randomness exists. God knows everything that will happen-- free-will doesn't make sense because god already knows what choice you will make. If god doesn't know, then he is not all-powerful, and if he is not all-powerful, that would explain the existence of pain and suffering.

Why don't you think that god controls outcomes at casinos? Because they seem small and insignificant to you? I say, that if god controls one thing, he controls everything. Even if he were to say that the casino games could control themselves, he is still indirectly in control of them, because they reside in his world and follow his rules...they also must fit in with his 'plan'.

Qualify your statement "if god controls one thing, he controls everything". Why is that? And how do you define "control"? When free will is offered and it is truly free will, absolute "control" must be lifted!

I don't believe in the plan of God as fate. We have a choice whether to follow God's plan or not. You're proof of this....you chose to stop being a Catholic and to become an atheist. Even a choice like that is beautiful because Ceridwen can become whoever Ceridwen wants to be. If God was pulling all your strings wouldn't you still be going to church like a good little girl?

So we both agree that we have free choice.....you just don't agree with the nature in which God has given it to us (if there is a God which you contest). You feel that as God you yourself could make better choices so there must not be a God???

Also keep in mind that I believe that the universe was created through the angels some of which rebelled and damaged the creation on earth. Free will...you gotta love it! This is in the Bible.....war in heaven......fall of Lucifer.....there's much, much more!

Why would cancer be created by God? I don't believe that God created cancer.

Then who did create cancer? It seems to me that you are attributing all the good to god but none of the bad, and that doen't make any sense.

That's because we have been broadly attributing almost everything in our discussions to a general "God" but have not been addressing the specifics of the representatives that do acts in the name of God. I don't believe that God ever leaves the First Domain (Heaven above all heavens) in Am's first presence. The level of pure energy (we'll use that term because we both understand it) the I-AM (the Invisible God) represents would destroy anything in its presense that wasn't in pure form.

Heh, heh--I don't know why god would create cancer either, but that definately seems to be the heart of the argument here.

Pure love would never personally create something such as cancer! Cancer is a side-effect in nature.....who exactly is responsible for this is another discussion. The angels who rebelled with Lucifer/Satan? The effects of humankinds destructive efforts against nature here on earth?

Riiiiiight, all this matter just decided to exist out of the blue and started creating a wonderful universe out of sheer randomness.....but you contended in an earlier post that atoms and such aren't so random at all, does it seem as though they are maybe "programmed" for their non random like behaviour? The force that "programmed" the atoms is the same source that I call God and you call science!

So god just decided to exist out of the blue and start creating things?

You said science had a satisfactory explantation for the beginning of the universe.....you are dodging the answer by diverting the attention back to my belief in God! Nice try!

as far as who to attribute the patterned behavior of matter to-- science or god-- we're just battling over semantics here.

\

Agreed. We're similar but not identical. Progress is progress though. You first find out what you have in common and then you hash out the differences!

Or is there something specifically instilled into the nature of humankind that causes them to pursue the spiritual......and sometimes that pursuit becomes expressed in different ways?

You could say that. The idea of god certainly fills emotional needs, as well as gaps in our understanding of our environment. Humans also have spiritual needs which are easier to fullfill with something like god. However, just because people would say they 'need' god, doesn't mean god exists. We can't will something into existence just because we want it.

But why would people have "spiritual" needs if spirits are non-existent? I propose they have spiritual needs because they have spirits.....seems logical.

I'm not proposing that people "willed" God into existence because of their needs. My proposal is that humankind was instilled with spiritual needs because they are born with spirits and that these spirits came from God who pre-exists us humans.

That's an interesting thing to keep in mind-- the need for god came first, before the idea.

I never said this.....nice try.

If you ascertain, as one of the fundementals of psychology, that man creates God and the supernatural to fill in for areas of need in his wretched life. Transcendentally, if a need is being fulfilled and the effect is real, then the cause of the effect is just as real as anything else in this world (or maybe even more so).

Yes, I see what you're saying here and I agree. Those same needs can also be fullfilled without god, however, and it is with that knowledge that we can say god is rendered useless.

Which needs can be fulfilled without God? And if there are some the point is that God would be just as real as any other physical "fix". If both solve the physical problem....both are real by extention. God is not rendered useless in any part of this....and there are many, many people who would tell you that before God became a conscious part of there lives, nothing else worked to alleviate their problems. Whether you contend this is in their minds or not makes no difference.....I call this freeing effect of mind the power of God.

What would you consider ample proof of God, Ceridwen? What would God have to do to prove that Am exists to you?

Appear in front of me and talk to me, maybe...allow himself to be tested by scientists perhaps...I havn't really thought about this question--I should though.

God (the Invisible God) is well.....Invisible!! So this isn't going to happen is it? And if God choses to appear to you in any physical form.....people will still argue whether it is really God or not regardless of how many miracles He performs. And scientists.....forget about it! They can't hardly agree on anything much less if the person standing in front of Ceridwen is God or not. And if God did appear in physical form, what exactly are these "experiments" going to show anyway?

The only way that I could see God proving Am's existence to you Ceridwen is through specific signs and wonders that would open your eyes to God's existence. Alas, if you refuse to acknowledge those signs and you chose to ignore them......

Again, the misunderstandings of a temporal, free-will universe......

Are you saying that you don't believe we can have free-will without pain and suffering?

Not if you live in a human body capable of feeling pain! Pain is inevitable, especially when others have the free will to inflict it.

The misconception of the nature of God's omniscience is something else that causes alot of philosophical problems as well.

Haha, enlighten me!

God is in everything that exists....but not in God's first presence. Will of God information is in all existence via the Soundtron, contained inside the atoms and molecules. This is how God is present everywhere and yet does not look upon evil with Am's pure eyes ( it's in the Bible). That is how there is a plan(will) of God through all existence but because of free will contra-wills must exist. And so we as humans can choose to reject God or to accept and love God. Random acts are still possible because of free choice. God doesn't know everything that you will ever do your whole life before you are even born again because of free will.

God does know every potential of what is programmed into the universe. And I'm sure that God's representatives have an idea of what choices you are likely to make based and where you are spiritually at any given time. But people can surprise you sometimes and do something really out of character....for bad or for good!

There's alot more but that'll have to do for now, I'm out of time and these long posts of yours are really time consuming!

Take care,

 

[Ceridwen018]

destinata7,

Your world is a very contradictory world, Ceridwen. People have free-will, but no choices to chose from.....free-will entails the right to be unhappy. No choice to be a vegetarian or not? People motivated by goals when they already have everything they need to be perfectly content? Overpopulation and vegetarianism won't be a problem because you'll make sure they won't? Sounds like great world planning...

The way I see it, is that if god were all-powerful, he'd be able to make something work, even if it seems contradictory and illogical.

Also, about free-will. I don't think that the lack of unhappiness would limit our free-will as you do. The way I see it, there are tons of things we humans can't do, like turning invisible for example. If I chose to turn invisible, I wouldn't be able to do it because it is not possible for a human being. Is my free-will hindered in that I can't do something that I'm choosing to do? Technically yes, but as you can see, I am still living a happy life full of choices, even though I'm restricted in this one area.

To do away with physical pain is an enigma in itself. Why do we have pain? It's our physical bodies' way of telling us that something is causing damage to it so that we can stop the damage! I know a man that lost all feeling in his legs because of an accident. He was passing time with one of his favorite occupations....welding! By the time his nose picked up the sickening scent of melting flesh his legs were mangled beyond recognition. Pain serves a purpose!

This goes with what I was saying before--god could take away pain and yet we would still be protected from such things.

We live in a beautiful free world! Good will overcome evil.

Why is he waiting?

Qualify your statement "if god controls one thing, he controls everything". Why is that? And how do you define "control"? When free will is offered and it is truly free will, absolute "control" must be lifted!

*Dang! She asked me to clarify!* :lol:

Ok, I'll do my best--be warned though: It's still a little fuzzy in my own head!

When I said, "if god controls one thing, he controls all things.' what I kinda meant was that god's actions have kind of a rippling effect. I believe that everything is interrealted in a sense...basically, if god acts on something big, the effects from that big action trickle down to the tiny details which are affected, so technically the way that the tiny details reacted is also controlled by god because he's the one who started it with the big action in the first place...does that make any sense whatsoever?

I see what you mean about how control must be lifted for free-will to exist, and I must say I agree. However, this is leading into more a debate over whether free-will exists or not, which should probably happen in a different thread. Mr. Spinkles has a thread called 'Is Free-will an Illusion?' under religious... or general debates (not sure which one!). He presents a very interesting concept...check it out an let me know what you think!

So we both agree that we have free choice.....you just don't agree with the nature in which God has given it to us (if there is a God which you contest). You feel that as God you yourself could make better choices so there must not be a God???

I actually do not believe in free-will...but we probably shouldn't get off on too much of a tangent in here.

I'm not ruling out the possiblity of god because I think I could make 'better' choices and decisions for the world. I just think that the present state of the world, and the decisions and choices which have been made by 'god', seem contradictory to god's popularly accpeted nature as all-loving, etc.

Also keep in mind that I believe that the universe was created through the angels some of which rebelled and damaged the creation on earth. Free will...you gotta love it! This is in the Bible.....war in heaven......fall of Lucifer.....there's much, much more!

I'm not sure how I feel about this...I've been mulling it over for some time. On one had, you could argue that god, in his infinite power, could've kept the angels from rebelling and bringing evil into the world, but then like you alluded to, that would infringe upon fee will....

One thing that strikes me though, is that many people think that because god is all good, he cannot create anything which is not good. This is an obvious contradiction because god had to have created the rebellious nature in the angels who turned evil...not only that, but because god is all-knowing, (I'm assuming that you believe god is all-knowing) he had to have known that the angels were going to rebel...in fact, he had to have known that before he even created them. This means that he intended and wanted for there to be sin and evil in the world...why is that?

That's because we have been broadly attributing almost everything in our discussions to a general "God" but have not been addressing the specifics of the representatives that do acts in the name of God. I don't believe that God ever leaves the First Domain (Heaven above all heavens) in Am's first presence. The level of pure energy (we'll use that term because we both understand it) the I-AM (the Invisible God) represents would destroy anything in its presense that wasn't in pure form.

Not quite sure what you mean here...could you elab a little?

Pure love would never personally create something such as cancer! Cancer is a side-effect in nature.....who exactly is responsible for this is another discussion. The angels who rebelled with Lucifer/Satan? The effects of humankinds destructive efforts against nature here on earth?

So...hmmm...do you believe that god didn't create evil then?

Given the first sin of Adam and Eve, the fall of Lucifer, nature's tendency to produce evil things such as cancer...it seems to me that evil is inherent in the system here. If god can't create evil, then how did it get there? Is there another creator?

You said science had a satisfactory explantation for the beginning of the universe.....you are dodging the answer by diverting the attention back to my belief in God! Nice try!

Ahh, thank you! :lol:

I do believe that science provides a satisfactory explanation for the beginning of the universe. You seemed to be saying that you thought it unlikely that matter could have just always existed, but it is the same concept as saying that god has just always existed. You also said that because matter is patterned, it could have been 'programmed' (by god) to act the way it does. This is the same idea though: did someone have to program god to act the way he does? You would say no...so why does matter have to have been programmed? Couldn't it have just always existed as is?

But why would people have "spiritual" needs if spirits are non-existent? I propose they have spiritual needs because they have spirits.....seems logical.

The word 'spiritual', therefore relating to spirits, is a purely human word used to describe this 'need' we have. What is this need, exactly? We have a need to know ourselves more deeply...to get in touch with our surroundings...to quiet our minds and reflect. None of these actions involve 'spirits', yet they are all qualified (or could be qualified) as spiritual experiences.

I never said this.....nice try.

*scratches head*

You didn't? Ok, I'm sorry...don't know where I got that then. I'll look back and see where It came from.

Which needs can be fulfilled without God? And if there are some the point is that God would be just as real as any other physical "fix". If both solve the physical problem....both are real by extention. God is not rendered useless in any part of this....and there are many, many people who would tell you that before God became a conscious part of there lives, nothing else worked to alleviate their problems. Whether you contend this is in their minds or not makes no difference.....I call this freeing effect of mind the power of God.

Hey, if belief in god helps someone deal with their problems or anything else, far be it from me to tell them otherwise. I personally don't like the idea that people are believing in something partly because they want to, rather than because it's what they truly think, but I respect people's beliefs and have dealt with that kind of thing first hand.

The only way that I could see God proving Am's existence to you Ceridwen is through specific signs and wonders that would open your eyes to God's existence. Alas, if you refuse to acknowledge those signs and you chose to ignore them......

I try to be as open minded as I possible can. If god wants to show me a sign, he can let me have it any day now.

God does know every potential of what is programmed into the universe. And I'm sure that God's representatives have an idea of what choices you are likely to make based and where you are spiritually at any given time. But people can surprise you sometimes and do something really out of character....for bad or for good!

So you don't think that god knows what you will choose?

Yikes! This has turned out to be another severly long post! Maybe next time I'll try to cut it into two or something!

 

[tumble_weed]

erp...haha I thought this was just one page then I realised on the second and third pages there's a massive battle which has nothing to do with baptism

but we probably shouldn't get off on too much of a tangent in here.

HAHA!

right...this WAS about Baptism wasn't it...

anyway now for my turn, I hope this wont be TOO long

Death by old age and disease also causes suffering so that would obviously be eliminated in your scenario. So we have a happy happy existence where everyone smiles at each other for long spans of time while a host of other unaddressed problems creep up: People so weary of being happy they want to commit suicide, without mood inflections they can't even tell what happiness is anymore; everone's rich, of course, and because they have nothing left to earn they end up with no goals, plans, or ideas; populations soar and the crowding is disgusting; everyone is intelligent as well so as to prevent the unhappiness of differentiality, with nothing better to do with their plush lives they happily plot revolution; animal populations soar (you can't have the unhappiness in your world of peoples favorite animals and pets dying); animals (none of which are carnivorous anymore) become so passive they lose their mating extincts (which can cause alot of violence and unhappiness in the animal kingdom anyway not to mention the human realm); everyone looks cloned (you can't have the unhappiness of ugly or different looking people in your world now can you?); people even act the same (wouldn't do to have nerds) and give the appearance of almost acting robotic they are so alike; people don't think of God or need God; overpopulation and vegetarianism causes the agricultural sector to fall drastically behind.......everyone starves to death!!! Great job, Ceridwen!

well no, see that's wrong because...what you have just describes isn't a good world...whatever a good world is...it should be created by God, that is if he is infact all good,

free will? let me try and draw a little diagram, of what I think virgil was saying before

this is what we have right now

|------------------------------|------------------------|

free will ^

On the left is Good choices on the right are bad choices...but perhaps God could change the scale of this freewill to be more like:

|------------------------------|

There's no male or female in heaven.

that doesn't sound very good to me. thaty sounds actually pretty dull for heaven, I like females...:O...and spending eternity with a bunch of genderless spirits floating around seems pretty boring...in fact, have you thought how prisioners complain about being locked up for 30 years, and say "30 years!!! that's a long time to be held in one place with the same view and the same people"....Imagine FOR EVER...litrally....more than 100 years, more than 1000 years, more than 1 million years....it's FOR ETERNITY....that would NOT be paradice...Remember you say a world with people who have "...nothing left to earn they end up with no goals, plans, or ideas" would be a bad world......do you think people have things to earn, goals, plans, ideas in heaven...surely not...

If you want an eternal heaven here on earth the first thing you would have to do away with these physical bodies which are so limited in capacity.

then why DO we have bodies on earth anyway, why did God give us these things which are limited and limit out free will

Why would cancer be created by God? I don't believe that God created cancer.

whoops or as you would say "nice try"

*cough* well then who DID create cancer??? Random chance....? If so then well maybe the whole world was created by random chance....and God doesn't actually exist....and people actually did appear from natrual selection. And maybe the universe did happen because of random chance...nice try

oh and as Ceridwen018 says "It seems to me that you are attributing all the good to god but none of the bad, and that doen't make any sense. "

anything unexplained and bad...has nothing to do with god...but anything unexplained and good must be from god...

So we both agree that we have free choice.....you just don't agree with the nature in which God has given it to us

what I find interesting is the fact that I don't like this God...however I don't have the free choice to choose another God...since there is only one God who controls the universe

God (the Invisible God) is well.....Invisible!! So this isn't going to happen is it? And if God choses to appear to you in any physical form.....people will still argue whether it is really God or not regardless of how many miracles He performs. And scientists.....forget about it! They can't hardly agree on anything much less if the person standing in front of Ceridwen is God or not. And if God did appear in physical form, what exactly are these "experiments" going to show anyway?

the experiments would show that God has magical powers.

But what I would like to see is God create a universe or something, maybe make something happen that seems physically impossible...And God would be A human because he created us in his likeness....like Jesus, so maybe if God can do something like turn water into wine for instance, that could be a start.

Actually I'm a bit confused, because God Isn't physically observable, infact God created us in his own image...shouldn't we all be Giant, invisible, invincible, omnipotent beings?

I'm not proposing that people "willed" God into existence because of their needs.

why not?

no other animals believe in God, so there must be something about humans being the most advanced beings psychologically that has something to do with believeing in God...

We live in a beautiful free world! Good will overcome evil.

Why is he waiting?

good point, there's still heaps of evil around. In fact it seems that there is more evil around than good...So is God on a holiday....but why is he biding his time....God has the free will to overcome evil....doesn't he?

Oh and one more thing...back to baptism...which is an initiation into Chrisitianity? But doesn't God forgive everyone so it doesn't matter if we are baptised or not?

 

[destinata7]

well no, see that's wrong because...what you have just describes isn't a good world...whatever a good world is...it should be created by God, that is if he is infact all good,

[

Is the crux of the real issue here whether something that is pure good even capable of creating evil?

free will ^

On the left is Good choices on the right are bad choices...but perhaps God could change the scale of this freewill to be more like:

|------------------------------|

The nature of this universe is that positive and negative create electricity. Without peak and trough you have flat line......not exciting at all but dead. What you are proposing consists of entirely peaks, howbeit different heights of those peaks. The only trouble with this representation of free will is that from the perspective of someone who is on the higher level......the lower level still looks like and has the same effect as a trough (valley of the shadow of death stuff here). Lesser good is still perceived as evil by some people......we've already experienced this in other discussions on this forum.

There's no male or female in heaven.

that doesn't sound very good to me. thaty sounds actually pretty dull for heaven, I like females...:O...and spending eternity with a bunch of genderless spirits floating around seems pretty boring...in fact, have you thought how prisioners complain about being locked up for 30 years, and say "30 years!!! that's a long time to be held in one place with the same view and the same people"....Imagine FOR EVER...litrally....more than 100 years, more than 1000 years, more than 1 million years....it's FOR ETERNITY....that would NOT be paradice...Remember you say a world with people who have "...nothing left to earn they end up with no goals, plans, or ideas" would be a bad world......do you think people have things to earn, goals, plans, ideas in heaven...surely not...

The physical expression of a man's love for a woman here on earth is nothing compared to the spiritual expressions of love in heaven. The problem here is that you, in your zeal for some good lovin', cannot imagine anything better than what you have experienced here on earth.

If you want an eternal heaven here on earth the first thing you would have to do away with these physical bodies which are so limited in capacity.

then why DO we have bodies on earth anyway, why did God give us these things which are limited and limit out free will

You have to start somewhere! There is beauty in humble beginnings achieving amazing endings. Besides, our bodies are capable of far more than one might think.

Why would cancer be created by God? I don't believe that God created cancer.

whoops or as you would say "nice try"

*cough* well then who DID create cancer??? Random chance....? If so then well maybe the whole world was created by random chance....and God doesn't actually exist....and people actually did appear from natrual selection. And maybe the universe did happen because of random chance...nice try

Diseases don't seem so evil once the cure for them has been discovered and they are no longer a threat to anyone. It is believed by many scientists that the secret to longevity lies within cancer itself. The telemeres don't seem to unravel with cancer as they eventually do with normal human cells after so many replications.

I don't believe God is responsible for cancer in the manner that you think he has to be....I'll explain in a later post.

what I find interesting is the fact that I don't like this God...however I don't have the free choice to choose another God...since there is only one God who controls the universe

You do have the free choice to choose God or "anti-God". And you certainly have the free choise to like or dislike God.

the experiments would show that God has magical powers.

Would experiments really have shown the prophets in the Bible having magical powers? No! Because all these miracles are performed through powers that we as humans already have access to but most of us do not know how to access.

But what I would like to see is God create a universe or something, maybe make something happen that seems physically impossible...And God would be A human because he created us in his likeness....like Jesus, so maybe if God can do something like turn water into wine for instance, that could be a start.

Actually I'm a bit confused, because God Isn't physically observable, infact God created us in his own image...shouldn't we all be Giant, invisible, invincible, omnipotent beings?

Because it wasn't the Invisible God that created man but Elohim/Manifold God....the creating angels.

 

[Darrell]

If Adam and Eve screwed up a pefect world and then Jesus washed away all the sin that they ceated,how is it that humans did not become perfect again?

 

[Katzpur]

If Adam and Eve screwed up a pefect world and then Jesus washed away all the sin that they ceated,how is it that humans did not become perfect again?

Why don't you start a new thread asking this question? This one's only about 8 years old.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Christian water baptism is an ordinance instituted by Jesus Christ. If it is not important in the plan of God, why did Jesus command it in Matthew 28:19? And why did Peter follow up by saying, "Be baptized every one of you," and by commanding the Gentiles to be baptized (Acts 2:38; 10:48)?

Its only important if jesus is who some say he is.

 

[Daviso452]

Maybe no one should be baptized. There does not seem to be a reason for it.

 

[cablescavenger]

Christian water baptism is an ordinance instituted by Jesus Christ. If it is not important in the plan of God, why did Jesus command it in Matthew 28:19? And why did Peter follow up by saying, "Be baptized every one of you," and by commanding the Gentiles to be baptized (Acts 2:38; 10:48)?

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" - Matthew 28:19
Notice that the word NAME is singular . . . one name. The words Father, Son and Holy Ghost are titles, not names.

Also notice that Jesus said; "GO". He didn't say it "would be nice if you did", or "you might think about it". It was a direction, a commandment to GO do it.


EXPLANATION on HOW to OBEY (What is the NAME?):

Peter was given the keys of the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 16:19) Many people picture Peter at heavens gate because of this. But these were not physical keys! Peter shared these same keys with us. . .
In Acts 2:37 They asked the Apostles what they should do, and Peter said: "REPENT, and be BAPTIZED every one of you in the NAME of JESUS CHRIST for the remission of sins, and ye shall RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST." - Acts 2:38

What is the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost? Peter knew, and the other Apostles standing there with him knew. This NAME is JESUS!

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were BAPTIZED into JESUS Christ were baptized into his death?" - Romans 6:3

"And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the NAME of the Lord JESUS.." - Colossians 3:17

You cannot just be baptized in titles of the name but you must be baptized in JESUS name to be saved!!!!!!

Hi Purity, welcome to RF

Strictly baptism, or do you count Christening?

 

[Viker]

Geez. This thread is old.

Luckily for me I was baptized at 12. So there is a nothing you can do. Even if a I don't believe or care a no more I get a free pass to the paradise casino and hotel in the here a aftah, if it is there when I get to it that is.

 

[Daviso452]

Darrel, what did you do?

 

[Rakhel]

Hi Purity, welcome to RF

Strictly baptism, or do you count Christening?

Ummm you did see that this thread was created back in 2004 and that Purity has been a member, at least, since then?

 

[Darrell]

Darrel, what did you do?

I don't know,I guess I'm just a bad little man.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Ummm you did see that this thread was created back in 2004 and that Purity has been a member, at least, since then?

lol, I didn't even realized the thread was old until after I replied and saw the post by Katzpur mentioning that

 

[Daviso452]

I don't know,I guess I'm just a bad little man.

Yes you are. Shame on you for reviving something

 

[cablescavenger]

Ummm you did see that this thread was created back in 2004 and that Purity has been a member, at least, since then?

It wasn't me. I didn't notice that comment until after I had posted, and I cba to edit afterwards.

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

Christian water baptism is an ordinance instituted by Jesus Christ. If it is not important in the plan of God, why did Jesus command it in Matthew 28:19? And why did Peter follow up by saying, "Be baptized every one of you," and by commanding the Gentiles to be baptized (Acts 2:38; 10:48)?

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" - Matthew 28:19
Notice that the word NAME is singular . . . one name. The words Father, Son and Holy Ghost are titles, not names.

Also notice that Jesus said; "GO". He didn't say it "would be nice if you did", or "you might think about it". It was a direction, a commandment to GO do it.


EXPLANATION on HOW to OBEY (What is the NAME?):

Peter was given the keys of the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 16:19) Many people picture Peter at heavens gate because of this. But these were not physical keys! Peter shared these same keys with us. . .
In Acts 2:37 They asked the Apostles what they should do, and Peter said: "REPENT, and be BAPTIZED every one of you in the NAME of JESUS CHRIST for the remission of sins, and ye shall RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST." - Acts 2:38

What is the NAME of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost? Peter knew, and the other Apostles standing there with him knew. This NAME is JESUS!

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were BAPTIZED into JESUS Christ were baptized into his death?" - Romans 6:3

"And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the NAME of the Lord JESUS.." - Colossians 3:17

You cannot just be baptized in titles of the name but you must be baptized in JESUS name to be saved!!!!!!

Good for you, but personally I get tired of quotes from the Bible at the end of just about every sentence.

 

[rusra02]

If god even existed in the way christians believe, than maybe baptism would be necessary. However, a god with human characteristics logically cannot exist. Therefore, baptism is not necessary.

Really? A God who created humans could not have human characteristics? How did you come up with that notion? Rather than God having human characteristics, we are told that God said: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness."
(Genesis 1:26)
We have a measure of God's characteristics, not the other way around.

​

​

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

The poster of the OP visited RF for one day and on 17th June 004 and thereafter never visited the site.
Could we not find some other active threads to discuss, where the original questioner is still active to get a response/feedback??
just sharing a thought?

Love & rgds