You MUST be baptized in JESUS name!

[LCMS Sprecher]

"And even if we screwed it up, if god was omnipotent, god could fix it. I see many more limitations on god the more I read about it."- Master Vigil

He did. He sent Christ to atone for our sins on the cross, wiping our sins away with Christ's blood.

"oh come on, if god didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from that tree than he wouldn't have made it, now would he? So again it goes back to gods fault."
- painted wolf

So you guys cry about God not giving free will and then when you find out that free will destroyed the world then free will is all sudden wrong. Free will constitutes doing what one desires. This includes possibly breaking rules. Adam and Eve broke the only command that God gave them and brought sin into the world. However, you must take into account that God has already taken care of this sin through Christ's death on the cross. You guys should really read the whole Bible for once instead of zeroing in on a few verses at a time and taking them out of context without regard to proper exegesis.

 

[painted wolf]

Actually, I have read the whole bible. But in my faith there is no fall of man, no hell or need to be saved by anyone.

what I'm saying is that in the story of Adam and Eve, god wanted them to sin, if they didn't sin he wouldn't have had to send Jesus all those thousands of years later. (took long enough) If they hadn't sinned there would have only been the two of them and not 6 billion of us. (give or take a few)

As for free will, yes I believe in that, I also believe that 'god' doesn't meddle in our day to day lives either. (raising nations and playing with his special people.)

wa:do

 

[Fra.Morelia]

If the world was perfect before original sin, how did they eat the apple? If the world was perfect and man was sinless, how did he sin? Seems like an oxymoron to me. Either the world was perfect and they could not eat the apple, or the world has always been imperfect. Not to dismiss original sin, but the concept that it was perfect before original sin is lacking. If WE were already lacking, then creation was alreadylacking.
And on the free will thing... if we could not choose evil, it would not be free. Yes, you can argue semantics, but even if god is omnipotent, he had to choose a way to do things. Maybe in his omnipotence he knew that free will with only good wasn't free will. I am a 27 year old jarhead and I can figure that one out, folks.

 

[Master Vigil]

"He did. He sent Christ to atone for our sins on the cross, wiping our sins away with Christ's blood."

You just admitted that god is limited (he screwed up), therefore a limited god is not omnipotent, and a god that is not omnipotent is not god.

And fra. morelia, if god was omnipotent, god could make a perfect free will that allows us to only make good choices but still making it free. An omnipotent being can do ANYTHING!!! When we say that god could not make it because it wasn't free means that he did not have the power to make it free. That limits god, and limits god omnipotence.

 

[Ceridwen018]

My sentiments exactly, Master Vigil. Well said.

I would also like to add that I am confused as to why god had to send Jesus to be killed in order to 'save' us from sin, when he could have just snapped his fingers. If your god has to take you on a guilt trip to get you to pay attention to him, I think you've got a problem. (I'm not trying to offend here, I realize that this whole Jesus thing could be a pretty sensitive subject, these are just my speculations)

 

[destinata7]

My sentiments exactly, Master Vigil. Well said.

I would also like to add that I am confused as to why god had to send Jesus to be killed in order to 'save' us from sin, when he could have just snapped his fingers. If your god has to take you on a guilt trip to get you to pay attention to him, I think you've got a problem. (I'm not trying to offend here, I realize that this whole Jesus thing could be a pretty sensitive subject, these are just my speculations)

So now you don't believe in God because of what you feel He can't do?

You can't understand God's reasoning so He must not exist?

Ceridwen, unless you've completely given up on chatting with me
(you've been neglecting our other discussions....too boring perhaps), why don't you pretend that there is a God and that you are that God.

You Ceridwen decide for some unknown reason that you wish to create a universe that will give forth new children, perhaps your desire to Mother/Father is very, very strong seeing as you are God after all. Remember unending love searches out for something/someone to share that love with.

You Ceridwen are now making the parameters for this universe and in particular a little planet called Earth. What would you do to make things run better than the way things are going now (you seem to hold a fairly low opinion of the way the old God has handled things).

Give me your proposition!



PS This is an official double-dog dare!

 

[LCMS Sprecher]

"You just admitted that god is limited (he screwed up), therefore a limited god is not omnipotent, and a god that is not omnipotent is not god."

God is not limited, and He didn't screw up, we did. Do you just read sections of my posts and not the whole thing? See quote...

Earlier post by LCMS Sprecher-

"They did. God created a perfect world, we screwed it up, not God."

 

[destinata7]

Earlier post by LCMS Sprecher-

"They did. God created a perfect world, we screwed it up, not God."

So your definition of a "perfect world" is one that has a talking Satan snake sliming around a tree bearing "eternal damnation" fruit?

Look, I don't believe that God screwed up because I don't believe that the Invisible God created the world......I-AM's representatives the Angels did. This is in the Bible if you look carefully.

The Bible says that there was "war in heaven" and Lucifer, an angel of great light and beauty, was cast down from heaven. This was Satan for all you out there who don't know the Bible.

Lucifer/Satan messed up creation and lost his status as an angel because of it. He's the snake in the grass that would love to give God the credit for his snakely blunder!!!

If my belief sounds far out, you should ask me for some Bible back-up. I would be more than happy to share it with you.

 

[LCMS Sprecher]

"Lucifer/Satan messed up creation and lost his status as an angel because of it. He's the snake in the grass that would love to give God the credit for his snakely blunder!!!"- destinata7

Did Satan force Eve to eat the fruit and did Adam resist Eve's temptation. Satan did not decieve Adam. However, God had told both Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree so they shouldn't have listened anyway. They knew they had done something wrong because they hid from God when He called them after the fall.

 

[painted wolf]

but why if the world was perfect put something imperfect in it?

unless god wanted the imperfection, and was ok with it getting loose.

also about the whole Jesus saving us thing, why did it take god all those thousands of years to do it? if the only way to god is through Jesus, why not let him show up sooner and save all those people from the four thousand year gap?

All those great bible charactors like Abraham, Issack, Moses, Noah, Soloman et cet never knew Jesus... never got baptized in his name, are they given some sort of special pass out of damnation or are they joining the rest of us in hell?

wa:do

 

[Runt]

Did Satan force Eve to eat the fruit and did Adam resist Eve's temptation. Satan did not decieve Adam. However, God had told both Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree so they shouldn't have listened anyway. They knew they had done something wrong because they hid from God when He called them after the fall.

As destinata7 suggested, the world was clearly already screwed up long before humans supposedly "screwed it up". War in Heaven, Satan waiting to tempt people to evil, Lilith (Adams' demon first wife)... the Christian view of the Garden and pre-Garden world was absolutely festering with evil, even if it was merely the potential for evil (which I don't think it was... Satan was in the Garden before Eve was ever tempted to do anything).

 

[Master Vigil]

I did read your post LCMS, however, saying that we screwed up also says that god screwed up. For god created a being that screwed it up. Therefore god screwed up by creating a being that would screw it up. And since god didn't create a being that was perfect and would never screw it up (like he could have if he was omnipotent), god is then limited. And even saying that god had to "fix" something says that he screwed up. Limited god... no longer god.

 

[Runt]

LCMS--

Think of it this way. We created the atomic bomb. It blew up Hiroshima and caused many people to die. Who was really responsible, the creator of the bomb, or the bomb? God may not have been the one to directly screw up the world, but his creation certainly did, and since he created us with perfect knowledge of what we would do, he is also responsible for our actions.

 

[LCMS Sprecher]

A bomb is not a thinking organism though. Again, I bring up the point that you guys whine that God did not take free will in mind at first. Then when God gives true free will, and we mess it up, God is at fault! It doesn't jive. Pick a side for once instead of playing one off the other.

 

[Master Vigil]

But since god is omnipotent, god could have given us true free will that was unable to be messed up. And created a being that would not mess it up, while still keeping it free. But the main point is that god is supposedly solely good. And the very purpose of good is to rid evil as fast as possible. But since god is supposedly solely good, and also omnipotent. Evil should not exist. But it does, that brings about the idea the god is either A: Not solely evil, or B: Not omnipotent. Being that god gave us free will in which we are able to do evil either shows that A: god does not care to get rid of evil and is not solely good, or B: god cannot get rid of evil and is not omnipotent.

 

[Ceridwen018]

destinata7,

I would first like to say that I'm very sorry if you think I've been neglecting our other conversations-- it is absolutely unintentional...sometimes it's just a little hard for me to keep up on all of these!

If I were creating earth, I would make it a place where evil doesn't exist, and neither do pain and suffering. it would be more of a 'heaven on earth' type of place. Everyone would be happy, and life would be paradise.

In truth, I don't have a problem with the way the world is now--that is, without god. When god is introduced, randomness is done away with. Nothing in this world is without purpose anymore. It makes you wonder, 'what is the purpose of cancer and starvation, etc.?'

The reason for why I do not believe in god is because it is just not logical to me. The origin of the universe is clearly explained by science, and the origin of religion is clearly explained by observing behavioral patterns of early civilizations. With this info, god is rendered useless. Also the fact that there is no proof for god is a serious kicker. The fact that he comes off as a serious hypocrite (wants us to be happy, subjects us to suffering), is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[LCMS Sprecher]

But since god is omnipotent, god could have given us true free will that was unable to be messed up. And created a being that would not mess it up, while still keeping it free. But the main point is that god is supposedly solely good. And the very purpose of good is to rid evil as fast as possible. But since god is supposedly solely good, and also omnipotent. Evil should not exist. But it does, that brings about the idea the god is either A: Not solely evil, or B: Not omnipotent. Being that god gave us free will in which we are able to do evil either shows that A: god does not care to get rid of evil and is not solely good, or B: god cannot get rid of evil and is not omnipotent.

There is a third possibility (C if you will): the existence of sin. Secondly, is free will actually free will if you can't make an evil choice? God gave free will and the world was perfect. He gave Adam and Eve one command (do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil). They did. There, God gave free will (true free will) and the world was perfect. Man screwed it up. Again, this goes back to the realization of sin. If man can do no wrong then it must be God's fault. The reason evil still exists in the world, is because sin exists. Sin will always exist until the end comes and God comes again to judge the living and the dead (used a little bit of the creed there). At which point, evil will be totally destroyed.

 

[destinata7]

destinata7,

If I were creating earth, I would make it a place where evil doesn't exist, and neither do pain and suffering. it would be more of a 'heaven on earth' type of place. Everyone would be happy, and life would be paradise.

Death by old age and disease also causes suffering so that would obviously be eliminated in your scenario. So we have a happy happy existence where everyone smiles at each other for long spans of time while a host of other unaddressed problems creep up: People so weary of being happy they want to commit suicide, without mood inflections they can't even tell what happiness is anymore; everone's rich, of course, and because they have nothing left to earn they end up with no goals, plans, or ideas; populations soar and the crowding is disgusting; everyone is intelligent as well so as to prevent the unhappiness of differentiality, with nothing better to do with their plush lives they happily plot revolution; animal populations soar (you can't have the unhappiness in your world of peoples favorite animals and pets dying); animals (none of which are carnivorous anymore) become so passive they lose their mating extincts (which can cause alot of violence and unhappiness in the animal kingdom anyway not to mention the human realm); everyone looks cloned (you can't have the unhappiness of ugly or different looking people in your world now can you?); people even act the same (wouldn't do to have nerds) and give the appearance of almost acting robotic they are so alike; people don't think of God or need God; overpopulation and vegetarianism causes the agricultural sector to fall drastically behind.......everyone starves to death!!! Great job, Ceridwen!

In truth, I don't have a problem with the way the world is now--that is, without god. When god is introduced, randomness is done away with. Nothing in this world is without purpose anymore. It makes you wonder, 'what is the purpose of cancer and starvation, etc.?'

Ah, but you did say that you had a problem with pain and suffering....or do you like it when people are in pain and suffering as long as you're convinced there is not God? I'm sure that you don't approve of all the violence and murder (please agree with me here so I know you're not a phycho) happening in the world today.......you contend that as long as there is not God you're cool with this??? Hmmmm.....

I don't believe that when God is introduced, randomness is done away with. Without some randomness, everything is ascribed to fate....and I personally do not believe in fate! For instance I believe in God, but I do not believe that God choses to influence the rouletted wheels at all the casinos.....I believe these are almost always random(unless a Jedi is manipulating the little ball).

Why would cancer be created by God? I don't believe that God created cancer.

As to starvation, this is a temporal realm filled with life needing temporal fuel.......take that fuel away and it dies. That's temporal existence for you!

The reason for why I do not believe in god is because it is just not logical to me.

You have every right to not see logic in God....you're not the first or the last. Personally, the existence of God makes perfect sense to me (call me crazy I guess!)

The origin of the universe is clearly explained by science

Riiiiiight, all this matter just decided to exist out of the blue and started creating a wonderful universe out of sheer randomness.....but you contended in an earlier post that atoms and such aren't so random at all, does it seem as though they are maybe "programmed" for their non random like behaviour? The force that "programmed" the atoms is the same source that I call God and you call science!

and the origin of religion is clearly explained by observing behavioral patterns of early civilizations.

Or is there something specifically instilled into the nature of humankind that causes them to pursue the spiritual......and sometimes that pursuit becomes expressed in different ways?

With this info, god is rendered useless.

If you ascertain, as one of the fundementals of psychology, that man creates God and the supernatural to fill in for areas of need in his wretched life. Transcendentally, if a need is being fulfilled and the effect is real, then the cause of the effect is just as real as anything else in this world (or maybe even more so).

Also the fact that there is no proof for god is a serious kicker.

What would you consider ample proof of God, Ceridwen? What would God have to do to prove that Am exists to you?

The fact that he comes off as a serious hypocrite (wants us to be happy, subjects us to suffering), is just the tip of the iceberg.

Again, the misunderstandings of a temporal, free-will universe......
The misconception of the nature of God's omniscience is something else that causes alot of philosophical problems as well.

Have fun reading all of this!

Awaiting your replies.....they better be good!

 

[Master Vigil]

"Secondly, is free will actually free will if you can't make an evil choice?"

The point I am trying to make is that if god was indeed omnipotent as well as being solely good. God would be able to make it free will and perfect free will but have you always choose good. By saying that it can't be this because of that is saying that god is limited by laws that seem to be beyond gods control. But there should be nothing beyond gods control for god is OMNIPOTENT!!!! And god could of made a world without sin, without evil, without suffering... But god didn't, and therefore either shows that god is either A: Not omnipotent, or B: Not solely good. Personally, I choose B.

 

[Master Vigil]

"God gave free will and the world was perfect."

But god is also omniscent, therefore god knew that adam and eve would sin and evil would come into the world. Therefore god knew he made evil beings. Therefore, god could of made them so they would not choose evil. But since he didn't, god is left being limited to either his omnipotence or his benevolence.

"Again, this goes back to the realization of sin. If man can do no wrong then it must be God's fault. The reason evil still exists in the world, is because sin exists. Sin will always exist until the end comes and God comes again to judge the living and the dead (used a little bit of the creed there). At which point, evil will be totally destroyed."

But who created sin, god must of right? Then god created evil, which goes against him being solely good. And since god "could" fix it NOW, or even go back in time and fix it BEFORE it all got out of hand goes against him being omnipotent.