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You Don't Understand...

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
1. There were many opposing views, with one view holding stronger than the other, due to "to a larger degree of individuals within the university and scientific community being influenced by", not data, but scientists.

2. They all had evidence. They all pointed to what the results indicated to them.

3. Another "theory" gained favor with the scientific community as the "current best explanation".


So the community can be influenced by the "credentials" of scientists.

There can be evidence for opposing views. One side alone doesn't have to be the sole possessor of evidence.

The current best explanation may be the favored one, and still be wrong.

Okay?
That is your interpretation.
What I see is that preponderance of evidence for one side decided the matter.
Usually more scientists tend to accept one hypothesis over another when the preponderance of evidence goes that way. So the number of scientists holding a hypothesis is directly correlated with how much evidence is there for that hypothesis.
We are rational that way, sad, but True.

What you appear to not understand is that Lyell's work settled the debate between these two theories precisely because he collected and marshaled a huge array of impressive evidence for one thesis over the other. So it was the evidence collected and explained by Lyell that settled the matter.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
And in our discussion that lead to you starting this thread, I specifically said, "I am saying that no religious person has ever reached a valid conclusion about a religious claim using the scientific method."
I heard you.
I also responding... clearly indicating that claim is false.

I'm curious as to why we discussed starting a thread on topic A and then you came and started one on topic B instead.
What we were discussing in said thread was topic B, which I chose to continue here, since I1) said thread was not focused specifically on topic B; 2) I was falsely accused of not backing up what I said, so I started a thread where I would demonstrate the accusation false; 3) this is entirely focused on topic B.

If you don't see that, look again at your claim on this page.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
I heard you.
I also responding... clearly indicating that claim is false.

Very well. If the claim is false, please provide an example of:

  1. A religious person,
  2. investigating a religious claim,
  3. in a rigorous scientific manner,
  4. and finding the religious claim is valid.


What we were discussing in said thread was topic B, which I chose to continue here, since I1) said thread was not focused specifically on topic B; 2) I was falsely accused of not backing up what I said, so I started a thread where I would demonstrate the accusation false; 3) this is entirely focused on topic B.

If you don't see that, look again at your claim on this page.

How about linking to a specific post?
 

Mark Charles Compton

Pineal Peruser
I'm dumb, and didn't present my question in the context of a hypothetical circumstance in which 'evidence' is alleged to be found supporting supernatural. You would not presume it to ever be substantiated, as evidence of phenomena is evidence of natural, not the supernatural. Correct? My apologies, I can be found to be daft sometimes. :D

With the supernatural, there is nothing to hypothesize or detect. Supernatural phenomena are essentially magic leaving no evidence of their magic nature to test. If evidence were left and we could test it, it would not be supernatural.
I'm pretty sure this clarified your position for me.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Please support your claim that the scientists had insufficient data upon which to base their conclusion.

Again, please support your claim that the scientists did not have sufficient evidence.
I did. Here, and here.

Anti-science people. You know, the ones who claim that science got it wrong, even though they have not done anywhere near enough study on the subject they are dismiss to know what they are talking about. I'm sure you've seen such people.
Science got it wrong? I think you mean scientists. Science is a study. It gets nothing.
See?

I literally did. In the first and second sentences of the post you were quoting. You even replied to them.
Okay, cool.
So assuming means "reaching a conclusion based on previous knowledge".
t1802.gif

...Uh huh. You must think I'm an idiot.
Show me that in a dictionary, or credible source.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I did. Here, and here.


Science got it wrong? I think you mean scientists. Science is a study. It gets nothing.
See?


Okay, cool.
So assuming means "reaching a conclusion based on previous knowledge".
t1802.gif

...Uh huh. You must think I'm an idiot.
Show me that in a dictionary, or credible source.
Science "got it wrong" again and again. So what? Do you know how that they knew that they got it wrong? By continually studying the concept and correcting errors. The end result is that science is never perfect, but it keeps getting more and more accurate.

Let's compare that to the book of Genesis that you have such a fixation over. Early Christian geologists proved that there was no flood of Noah long before Darwin came along. Since then there have been more and more stories of Genesis shown to be only myths and legends. Where is the correction mechanism of the Bible? We know that science is not perfect nor will it ever be. Science is an ongoing process where we get closer and closer to "The TruthTM" Holy books tend to be stuck with their errors.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Thanks for being the first to address that. Thank you.
t2009.gif



Okay, so you think it should be worded... turning an old hypothesis based on existing (or should that be... previous) evidence on its head.

There is a problem there, I think.
"an idea based on existing evidence", which is shown to be inaccurate, based on thorough research, is an idea that is accepted as true, without verification, or proof:
I think it's important to point that out, don't you?

You see, there are some scientist who think that their ideas should be accepted, even if the results are inconclusive, or other competing ideas are valid.
This can be seen from what I posted here, and the video here.
Notice the words..."[scientists] have too much hubris... too full of [themselves]... believe stories too much" "talked about getting Nobel prizes" "uncritical of glaring problems"

These are men we are dealing with here. Not gods.
They are prone to all the fallible qualities of other men... even greedy religious leaders who are after your money... and politicians.... and merchants...


Do you think the phrases "accepted without proof", and "accepted without evidence", mean the same thing?


I must have read a different article.
I read...
These colourful markings were assumed to be a warning to predators against eating the beetles, which are able to secrete poisonous chemicals in self-defence. However, this idea was based on earlier studies, which focused on using museum collections of beetle specimens for their analyses. While this method affords researchers a large number of samples, the discolouration of deceased specimens made accurate colour analysis of the beetles impossible. Furthermore, such methodology also fails to take into account the colouration of each beetle's natural environment.

That says, 1) the results could not be accurate based on the focus only on museum collected beetles - limiting the scope of the research.
The conditions of an experiment can change the results drastically, as seen from the fact that 2) the previous methodology failed to take into account the colouration of each beetle's natural environment.

Which would lead to assuming that the conditions are just right to reach a conclusion that is accurate... when that is not the case.
Sort of like assuming that gradualism is true because the rate of activity is steady, or decreasing rates of certain chemicals is steady, or speculating that the early earth had just the right conditions for spontaneous generation to have happened, or that reptiles evolved to mammals... and on and on.

Thus, reaching wrong conclusions, based on assumptions, speculations, and wrong interpretations.


Oh. Further work has to be done on this.... Swell.

Jewel beetle’s bright colored shell serves as camouflage from predators
Artist and naturalist Abbott Handerson Thayer became known as the "father of camouflage" with the publication in 1909 of a book on coloration in animals. He was particularly fascinated by the phenomenon of iridescence: many species exhibit bright, metallic jewel tones that shift hues depending on viewing angle. While iridescence is often viewed as a means of sexual selection - think the magnificent peacock, shimmering his feathers to attract a willing peahen - Thayer suggested that in some species, it was also an effective means of camouflage.

Thayer endured a fair bit of mockery for his ideas, most notably from Theodore Roosevelt, a big game hunter who thought Thayer had grossly overstated his case. Indeed, there has been very little empirical support for Thayer's hypothesis in the ensuing century. But researchers from the University of Bristol have now uncovered the first solid evidence for this in the jewel beetle, according to a new paper in Current Biology.

"The idea of 'iridescence as camouflage' is over 100 years old, but our study is the first to show that these early ignored or rejected ideas that 'changeable or metallic colors are among the strongest factors in animals' concealment' have traction,"
- Kjernsmo.
Shinny Shells for Camouflage - Not Display
Tan and her team spent 17 months photographing live beetles in 32 locations across four Australian states. She then compared each beetle’s coloration to the color of the leaf it was found on. Taking into account the evolutionary relationship between the different beetle species, Tan discovered that different species of beetles had color patterns similar to those of their host plants.

This suggests that the colorations have a camouflaging effect, rather than serving a predator-deterring (aposematic) function. This camouflage effect was particularly pronounced in beetles which fed on multiple types of plants, as they had to blend into many different environments.

What I don't find, those who are eager to accept a beloved "theory", or hypothesis saying, is... "what seems to be suggested by the results, are far from clear, and is not enough to verify or conclude our idea... further work needs to be done on this front."

What more would you as a scientist think needs to be done to confirm Dr. Tan, and her team's findings?


So what does assumption mean in science?
There is no such thing as proof is science. All scientific knowledge is tentative and is based on current preponderance evidence and can be overturned is future evidence shows a different theory or hypothesis is correct or the current evidence is somehow flawed. You understand that correct? In fact, epistemologically, no scientific knowledge can be considered either true or false. It can be, at best, described as empirically adequate given current evidence or empirically inadequate given current evidence.

But to actually overturn a current empirically adequate scientific knowledge, you actually have to do the legwork and show that
a) current evidence is somehow flawed or can be reinterpreted in a different theory
b) provide new evidence to support the counter hypothesis.
This has been done in the paper. Now it requires other independent research groups to take and replicate and provide further evidence for the new hypothesis (or go the other way..show that the work that this group did is flawed in some way). Only after several expert groups have independently investigated the new theory and confirmed that, yes, the claims made are correct, only then the hypothesis is overturned and changed to the new hypothesis.......until the next theory comes in and presents even better evidence.

On a general front...whatever is your favored theory that you believe science is not accepted...please feel free to become an expert and provide good quality research with good quality evidence which ticks all the above boxes and get it published in good journal. Then yes, even your theory may be accepted in science.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
If supernatural phenomena exist, then they would be a sub-set of the natural, by definition.
No, the term ‘supernatural’ comes from Medieval Latin supernaturalis, from Latin super- (beyond, or outside of) + natura (nature).

So if it’s “outside of” nature, then it can’t be part of it.

Best wishes
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member

So let's get this straight. They missed a bit about the colouring of beetles because of the limitations of their sample (and the inadequacy was pointed out by science, let's not forget), and you think that means that the genetic evidence for evolution should be thrown out?

Honestly, that's like saying, "My car door got rust in it and had to be replaced, therefore we can't trust that this skyscraper is built to code."

Science got it wrong? I think you mean scientists. Science is a study. It gets nothing.
See?

You have utterly failed to show any case of this.

And I'll even admit that there are cases where scientists DID get it wrong. And you still can't show it.

Okay, cool.
So assuming means "reaching a conclusion based on previous knowledge".
t1802.gif

...Uh huh. You must think I'm an idiot.
Show me that in a dictionary, or credible source.

Right here: A brief history of scientific practice | Process of Science | Visionlearning

Data interpretation is not a free-for-all, nor are all interpretations equally valid. Interpretation involves constructing a logical scientific argument that explains the data. Scientific interpretations are neither absolute truth nor personal opinion: They are inferences, suggestions, or hypotheses about what the data mean, based on a foundation of scientific knowledge and individual expertise. When scientists begin to interpret their data, they draw on their personal and collective knowledge, often talking over results with a colleague across the hall or on another continent. They use experience, logic, and parsimony to construct one or more plausible explanations for the data.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
.
Shinny Shells for Camouflage - Not Display
Tan and her team spent 17 months photographing live beetles in 32 locations across four Australian states. She then compared each beetle’s coloration to the color of the leaf it was found on. Taking into account the evolutionary relationship between the different beetle species, Tan discovered that different species of beetles had color patterns similar to those of their host plants.

This suggests that the colorations have a camouflaging effect, rather than serving a predator-deterring (aposematic) function. This camouflage effect was particularly pronounced in beetles which fed on multiple types of plants, as they had to blend into many different environments.

What I don't find, those who are eager to accept a beloved "theory", or hypothesis saying, is... "what seems to be suggested by the results, are far from clear, and is not enough to verify or conclude our idea... further work needs to be done on this front."

What more would you as a scientist think needs to be done to confirm Dr. Tan, and her team's findings?


So what does assumption mean in science?

So you asked what further work can be done to support or counter the hypothesis given above. Well, you are in luck! Because 2 months ago, an equally meticulous paper was published that counters the hypothesis of this paper by showing that the bright colors and iridescence do in fact have predator deterrent functions (by experimentations of live birds, live beetles, various color and iridescent patterns etc.)
Full article:-
Beetle iridescence induces an avoidance response in naïve avian predators - ScienceDirect
Excerpts:-
Here, we tested the effects of both iridescence and surface gloss (i.e. specular reflection) on the attack behaviour of prey-naïve avian predators. Using real and artificial jewel beetle, Sternocera aequisignata, wing cases, we found that iridescence provides initial protection against avian predation by significantly reducing the willingness to attack. Importantly, we found that the main factor explaining this aversion is iridescence, not multiple colours per se, with surface gloss also having an independent effect. Our results are important because they demonstrate that even when prey are presented up close and against a mismatching background, iridescence may confer a survival benefit by inducing hesitation or even, as sometimes observed, an aversion response in attacking birds. Furthermore, this means that even postdetection, prey do not necessarily need to have secondary defences such as sharp spines or toxins for iridescence to have a protective effect.

Here is popular level version of the paper
https://phys.org/news/2022-05-beetle-iridescence-deceptive.html

Please note. I am not saying that X is correct and Y is incorrect. As can be seen, quite a lot of work is being done to untangle the effects of color and pattern evolution on pred-prey interactions. Several alternative models and hypothesis are currently being actively tested in the lab experiments and in the field. I checked the various papers that have come out over the last 20 years and did not find any actual dogma here, rather a careful effort from various groups to untangle the various types of effects from each other and clarify their role.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
It is not an opinion. If you know of any sound, objective evidence for the existence of a deity/designer, you need to get that out so that others will know and you can get your fame as the first person to ever provide it.
The designs themselves… no undirected forces / mechanisms have ever been observed creating novel designs that provide complex function

Through uniform and repeated experiments, in almost all fields of science where even simple functions were discovered, it was / is recognized that intelligence was required to accomplish the feat.

But in the life sciences, where the evidence reveals complexities & integrated systems greater by orders of magnitude, saying an intelligent cause is it’s source, is anathema.

That wasn’t always the case…

i guess these current leaders think that what they can’t test for, ie, what’s unfalsifiable, doesn’t exist?
 

Mark Charles Compton

Pineal Peruser
So you asked what further work can be done to support or counter the hypothesis given above. Well, you are in luck! Because 2 months ago, an equally meticulous paper was published that counters the hypothesis of this paper by showing that the bright colors and iridescence do in fact have predator deterrent functions (by experimentations of live birds, live beetles, various color and iridescent patterns etc.)
Full article:-
Beetle iridescence induces an avoidance response in naïve avian predators - ScienceDirect
Excerpts:-
Here, we tested the effects of both iridescence and surface gloss (i.e. specular reflection) on the attack behaviour of prey-naïve avian predators. Using real and artificial jewel beetle, Sternocera aequisignata, wing cases, we found that iridescence provides initial protection against avian predation by significantly reducing the willingness to attack. Importantly, we found that the main factor explaining this aversion is iridescence, not multiple colours per se, with surface gloss also having an independent effect. Our results are important because they demonstrate that even when prey are presented up close and against a mismatching background, iridescence may confer a survival benefit by inducing hesitation or even, as sometimes observed, an aversion response in attacking birds. Furthermore, this means that even postdetection, prey do not necessarily need to have secondary defences such as sharp spines or toxins for iridescence to have a protective effect.

Here is popular level version of the paper
https://phys.org/news/2022-05-beetle-iridescence-deceptive.html

Please note. I am not saying that X is correct and Y is incorrect. As can be seen, quite a lot of work is being done to untangle the effects of color and pattern evolution on pred-prey interactions. Several alternative models and hypothesis are currently being actively tested in the lab experiments and in the field. I checked the various papers that have come out over the last 20 years and did not find any actual dogma here, rather a careful effort from various groups to untangle the various types of effects from each other and clarify their role.
This is all cool as can be to me! It reminds me of a video I watched where some marine biologists were studying the methods and environmental causes and correlations which were relevant to marine life developing bioluminescence. To intimidate/hide/blur from predators. To confuse/disorient predators/prey. Intraspecies mating/warning... I'm sure there were other functions, it was cool.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Thanks. Therefore, that's all I want to hear.
Why are they afraid to admit it?
Is it because they accuse religion of having different interpretations of scripture... using that as a basis to say it is no good?

So really... your goal in this thread is to try and drag science down the the make-belief level of theism, just so you can then claim that religious claims are "just as likely" or "just as valid" as scientific claims?

Is that it?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
That's interesting. What "evidence" has been refuted?

I will like to read up.


Pick any.
Every time theists have tried to claim "intervention" or "guiding" by supernatural shenannigans, it has been found either wrong or simply bare assertion without evidence.

Like the ID nonsense etc.

I'm not aware of any such claims that were able to stand on their own merits.
They are religious claims. Faith based.
Either they fly in the face of reality, or they are unfalsifiable and unsupportable (and such claims can be dismissed at face value).

Anyone who thinks there are claims of "intervention" or "guidance" by supernatural shenannigans that CAN be supported by evidence, is more then welcome to mention them and show how they are supported by evidence.

Here, in a new thread, whatever.
I'ld be very interested.

I'm not aware of such claims.
I'm aware of MANY claims of the opposite side of the fence though.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
If you look at a painting, you know there is a designer

It's implied by "painting".
We know what paintings are and how they originate.

If you look at a building, you know there is a designer

It's implied by "building".
We know what buildings are and how they originate.

If you look at a body and realize that there is no nose under the armpit, no eyes under your feet, no hands coming out of your back, et al

you KNOW there is a designer.

No.
We know what biological entities are and how they originate. And gods have nothing to do with that process.

Now... you may have a different viewpoint but it would be your opinion.

No. What YOU expressed is your opinion / belief.

Based on a false equivocation, at that.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
:) All I am saying is that you offer viewpoints and your statement certainly didn't invalidate mine.

What you call "viewpoints" are actually solid scientific conclusion based on overwhelming independently verifiable and testable evidence.

While your "viewpoint" is no more then a superimposed religious beliefs where you assume to have the answers even before asking the question. And to "support" it, you need to resort to false analogies and pretend as if harsh scientific research is on par with the "dreams" and "visions" and "revelations" of some bronze age religion.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
No.
We know what biological entities are and how they originate. And gods have nothing to do with that process.

But we know that there are black holes and really don't know how they originate.

No. What YOU expressed is your opinion / belief.

Based on a false equivocation, at that.

That is your opinion. We don't know how they originate and it is implied that violating the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and actually having design, purpose and destiny, there must be a designer.
 
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