• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

You can not understand God with human common sense.

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
If I may inject a thought, and a question here. I don't read what the OP was saying is that we don't find God because we're bad. Rather it's because we're more distracted.

This is a good read of it, and I'd add another element to the equation.

Many don't find God or gods because of their preconceived notions about the gods. It creates a very significant sort of god-blindness that few overcome because my culture does a poor to nonexistent job of teaching its citizens about theological or religious diversity. Up until college for example, I just believed adults when they insisted god had to be this, that, and the other thing. Turns out they didn't need to be any of the things I had been told; once I got educated about theology that's when I found my gods. They'd been there all along, but I'd been unable to call them gods due to cultural baggage.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
And my question is, you said you found God as a child. What does that mean to you? You found Beauty? Or you were introduced to religion? Can you clarify?
I was taught at a Christian school, we prayed at assembly, sang Hymns, read bible stories, did RE twice a week.
I was in the Church Lads Brigade; went to Sunday School, went to proper church when I was old enough; when I was about 12, I was confirmed.

It certainly didn't mean I'd found beauty.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I was taught at a Christian school, we prayed at assembly, sang Hymns, read bible stories, did RE twice a week.
I was in the Church Lads Brigade; went to Sunday School, went to proper church when I was old enough; when I was about 12, I was confirmed.

It certainly didn't mean I'd found beauty.
I'd say that's being taught about God, or their understanding of God, such as that may have been. That's more being religiously trained. "Finding God" is generally understood as more personal than that. And that can happen at any age, within religion or completely outside of religion, as in my case.

That's not to say you didn't find any comfort or goodness within that training, but generally speaking such experiences transcend anything we've been taught or could possible conceive of. Quite literally, it goes beyond beliefs, which are thoughts and ideas. It transcends religion itself. That's kind of the point I took away from the OP here.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Many don't find God or gods because of their preconceived notions about the gods. It creates a very significant sort of god-blindness that few overcome because my culture does a poor to nonexistent job of teaching its citizens about theological or religious diversity.
Yes, very much so. In fact, to those trained up within a religion itself, such notions about God can create a huge block to actually realizing the Divine, or "finding God". It seems a natural inclination for the novice to literalize what they hear spoken about God as definitions of what God actually is. That problem is compounded when the ones who are their teachers mistake the metaphors as actual descriptors, or to use the way Alan Watts puts it, "mistaking the fingers pointing at the moon, with the moon itself".

The inexperienced, lacking the confidence that experience gives, does not know to trust themselves yet, and give away their power to assumed "authorities"; be they priests or scientists. That's not to say there are no actual teachers we should take guidance from, such as genuine masters, but as was my case, and it sounds yours as well as my experience, we give too much power to those who speak of "the truth of God" to the exclusion of all other points of views, or "fingers pointing at the moon".

I've been considering starting a thread on cataphatic versus apophatic forms of meditation as ways to realizing the Divine, as each has different important things to bring to the full Realization of the seeker. The cataphaptic approach is to meditate on the qualities of the Divine, the goodness of God, the love, the positive attributes, the visible Light, etc. (Saguna Brahman is another way to view that).

But that approach while useful, can also become a trap itself. I found this Sufi maxim, that @Conscious thoughts, might appreciate. It goes, "A knife is neither good nor bad; but woe to him who grasps it by the blade!". What that means in this context is that have images of God in mind, entering into the Lights, can and does have a profound effect in transforming the person out of and away from the 'earthly' human, one who runs the programs of life with no self-awareness or inner knowledge. But it can also itself create an obstacle in fully Realizing the Divine nature within our own self, or our Self. Especially because the ego can grasp that blade, seeking to fulfill itself as a "spiritual person" or such.

This is why, I believe, the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart prayed paradoxically, "I pray God make me free from God, so that I may know God in his unconditioned being". God with attributes helps us to move beyond our earthly or mundane, self-unaware programmed responses in out "active self", but to transcend into a nondual perceptive Reality, requires letting go of all objects which creates the separate self in the first place. Hell, that's my topic thread in itself. :)
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Yes, very much so. In fact, to those trained up within a religion itself, such notions about God can create a huge block to actually realizing the Divine, or "finding God". It seems a natural inclination for the novice to literalize what they hear spoken about God as definitions of what God actually is. That problem is compounded when the ones who are their teachers mistake the metaphors as actual descriptors, or to use the way Alan Watts puts it, "mistaking the fingers pointing at the moon, with the moon itself".

The inexperienced, lacking the confidence that experience gives, does not know to trust themselves yet, and give away their power to assumed "authorities"; be they priests or scientists. That's not to say there are no actual teachers we should take guidance from, such as genuine masters, but as was my case, and it sounds yours as well as my experience, we give too much power to those who speak of "the truth of God" to the exclusion of all other points of views, or "fingers pointing at the moon".

I've been considering starting a thread on cataphatic versus apophatic forms of meditation as ways to realizing the Divine, as each has different important things to bring to the full Realization of the seeker. The cataphaptic approach is to meditate on the qualities of the Divine, the goodness of God, the love, the positive attributes, the visible Light, etc. (Saguna Brahman is another way to view that).

But that approach while useful, can also become a trap itself. I found this Sufi maxim, that @Conscious thoughts, might appreciate. It goes, "A knife is neither good nor bad; but woe to him who grasps it by the blade!". What that means in this context is that have images of God in mind, entering into the Lights, can and does have a profound effect in transforming the person out of and away from the 'earthly' human, one who runs the programs of life with no self-awareness or inner knowledge. But it can also itself create an obstacle in fully Realizing the Divine nature within our own self, or our Self. Especially because the ego can grasp that blade, seeking to fulfill itself as a "spiritual person" or such.

This is why, I believe, the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart prayed paradoxically, "I pray God make me free from God, so that I may know God in his unconditioned being". God with attributes helps us to move beyond our earthly or mundane, self-unaware programmed responses in out "active self", but to transcend into a nondual perceptive Reality, requires letting go of all objects which creates the separate self in the first place. Hell, that's my topic thread in itself. :)
Thank you for sharing the Sufi qoute, i agree with how you described what it means.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
I'd say that's being taught about God, or their understanding of God, such as that may have been. That's more being religiously trained. "Finding God" is generally understood as more personal than that. And that can happen at any age, within religion or completely outside of religion, as in my case.

That's not to say you didn't find any comfort or goodness within that training, but generally speaking such experiences transcend anything we've been taught or could possible conceive of. Quite literally, it goes beyond beliefs, which are thoughts and ideas. It transcends religion itself. That's kind of the point I took away from the OP here.
The trouble is with that indoctrination (and that's what it was) when you start to realise that most of the bible stories make no sense; then you learn in science about evolution and continental drift and germ theory, etc and you think, " If the Bible is supposed to be such a great book, why didn't it explain that?"
Once one of the stories from religious classes is overturned the rest soon follow,
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Common sense tells me that God is an illusion...a myth...a fiction.
This is the best understanding (IMO).
:D

One has to define "God" first, before claiming it's an illusion
After defining "God", how can it be an illusion, unless one defines "God" as an illusion

So, if I understand you correctly, then you defined "Your God" as an illusion
That is fine with me of course; many here might agree with you
I have defined "My God" differently, so I have a different understanding (naturally)

I like it, that we can all create our own definition of "Our God":D
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
:D

You have to define "God" first, before claiming it's an illusion
After defining "God", how can it be an illusion, unless you define "God" as an illusion
There are so many definitions.
They range from minimally fanciful to detail descriptions filling books.
Reading those books is unnecessary.
All are defeated by common sense.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
There are so many definitions.
They range from minimally fanciful to detail descriptions filling books.
And all are defeated by common sense.
That is a bold claim you make "ALL definitions of God are defeated by common sense"

Could you please prove your claim?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
That is a bold claim you make "ALL definitions of God are defeated by common sense"

Could you please prove your claim?
It is indeed a bold claim.
Alas, common sense is about instinct based upon experience.
Applied to the supernatural, it is neither provable nor disprovable.
Tis mere personal opinion.
 

Vee

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What do i mean by this?
To understand God you must look at your own actions, use of words, and your thoughts.

Why? Because if you have unwholsome actions that is wrong in Gods eyes, you can not gain the wisdom to Gods pure actions.

If your words are full of hate, swearing, greed, jealosy and do on, your mind is not empty and pure so you can not hear God when God calling your name to make you aware that you slipping away in to a life of suffering.

If your thoughts reflex your mouth with bad thoughts and bad intention, your mind can still not hear Gods calling.

Only when your action, words and thoughts has been purified can you fully hear Gods full message to you.

You become like God.

While it is true that humans are imperfect and make many mistakes, I don't believe that means God doesn't appreciate the good heart and qualities that might sometimes hide being someone's bad choices.
People who are full of hatred and bad intentions might be on the wrong path, but that doesn't mean there's no hope for them. The bible says that God is impartial (Gal. 3:28) and when Jesus was on earth he taught all kinds of people, not just the nice, well behaved ones.
I believe the message of God is available to all who want to hear it.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
While it is true that humans are imperfect and make many mistakes, I don't believe that means God doesn't appreciate the good heart and qualities that might sometimes hide being someone's bad choices.
People who are full of hatred and bad intentions might be on the wrong path, but that doesn't mean there's no hope for them. The bible says that God is impartial (Gal. 3:28) and when Jesus was on earth he taught all kinds of people, not just the nice, well behaved ones.
I believe the message of God is available to all who want to hear it.
I do not say for example all believers are bad people, what i tried to say in OP is that for those who keep holding on to human attachments like greed, anger, jealosy and so on, it is difficult to hear God when he speak to us, it was never an intention to call any human beings for bad.
But because human attachments make us more focused on physical world than spiritual world, that make it difficult to hear when God speak. That was all what wanted to say.

So no critique of anybody person
 
Last edited:

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
It is indeed a bold claim.
Alas, common sense is about instinct based upon experience.
Applied to the supernatural, it is neither provable nor disprovable.
Tis mere personal opinion.
I do like bold personal opinions:)

To follow my Common Sense is usually a safe track; no crazy surprises
My motto is: "Common Sense before Divine Sense"
IF I am in tune with the Divine THEN both match
@stvdvRF
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Your advise is to not cuss or have impure thoughts so you can perceive God's wishes.

Look what happened in our lifetime.

Iraq was attacked by President George W. Bush, defying God's commandment (given to Moses) "thou shalt not kill," and defying God's commandment (given to Moses) "thou shalt not bear false witness." Revelation (a chapter of the bible from St. John the Divine is a prophecy of the end of the world), and that end of the world scenario is kicked off by the most powerful nation in the world (according to Revelation 17:18) attacking Iraq. Revelation is about all of the wrathful things God is going to do to us if we attack Iraq.

So, how did the Religious Right get to the point of supporting the dragon and beast (2 foul demons from the brimstone depths of the bottomless pit of hell, according to Revelation)?

The Religious Right opposed cussing (though Reverend Schuler used to cuss a lot and hit people, according to his close aides). The Religious Right opposed impure thoughts about sex (though Reverend Jimmy Swaggart was arrested for hiring a prostitute in Lancaster, California).

Impure thoughts of war occurred because the al Qaeda had attacked the United States (the 911 attack), and though they had nothing to do with Iraq, and though Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism, President W. Bush was convinced that the citizens of the United States were sitting ducks for further terrorist acts. He wanted to take the fight to their land, rather than killing people in the US. All this makes perfect sense to a human being. But, God is all knowing and all powerful, so from God's standpoint, all possible actions are already known, and their outcomes are already known, as well.

It's like God cheated by knowing the outcomes in advance. So, of course God was right and of course President W. Bush was wrong. When W. Bush defied God's commandments and killed, and bore false witness against Iraq, and attacked Iraq against the divinely inspired prophecies in Revelation (in the bible), he sinned mightily, and forced the world to a doomed path (the end of the world when all life will be killed by God).

The 911 attack gave President W. Bush impure thoughts....thoughts of war, thoughts of killing, and even thoughts of a torture camp in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Those impure thoughts are the tools of the devil.

You can recognize the devil by merely looking at the greed, blood trail, and environmental damage.

So, the Religious Right, which frowned on cussing and sex acts outside of marriage, was responsible for defying God by being scared. Fear is the tool of the devil.

Fear made W. Bush defy God and go to war. God had already told us that we must turn the other cheek, and that God would handle our enemies.
 
Last edited:

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Your advise is to not cuss or have impure thoughts so you can perceive God's wishes.

Look what happened in our lifetime.

Iraq was attacked by President George W. Bush, defying God's commandment (given to Moses) "thou shalt not kill," and defying God's commandment (given to Moses) "thou shalt not bear false witness." Revelation (a chapter of the bible from St. John the Divine is a prophecy of the end of the world), and that end of the world scenario is kicked off by the most powerful nation in the world (according to Revelation 17:18) attacking Iraq. Revelation is about all of the wrathful things God is going to do to us if we attack Iraq.

So, how did the Religious Right get to the point of supporting the dragon and beast (2 foul demons from the brimstone depths of the bottomless pit of hell, according to Revelation)?

The Religious Right opposed cussing (though Reverend Schuler used to cuss a lot and hit people, according to his close aides). The Religious Right opposed impure thoughts about sex (though Reverend Jimmy Swaggart was arrested for hiring a prostitute in Lancaster, California).

Impure thoughts of war occurred because the al Qaeda had attacked the United States (the 911 attack), and though they had nothing to do with Iraq, and though Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism, President W. Bush was convinced that the citizens of the United States were sitting ducks for further terrorist acts. He wanted to take the fight to their land, rather than killing people in the US. All this makes perfect sense to a human being. But, God is all knowing and all powerful, so from God's standpoint, all possible actions are already known, and their outcomes are already known, as well.

It's like God cheated by knowing the outcomes in advance. So, of course God was right and of course President W. Bush was wrong. When W. Bush defied Gods and killed, and bore false witness against Iraq, and attacked Iraq against the divinely inspired prophecies in Revelation (in the bible), he sinned mightily, and forced the world to a doomed path (the end of the world when all life will be killed by God).

The 911 attack gave President W. Bush impure thoughts....thoughts of war, thoughts of killing, and even thoughts of a torture camp in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Those impure thoughts are the tools of the devil.

You can recognize the devil by merely looking at the greed, blood trail, and environmental damage.

So, the Religious Right, which frowned on cussing and sex acts outside of marriage, was responsible for defying God by being scared. Fear is the tool of the devil.

Fear made W. Bush defy God and go to war. God had already told us that we must turn the other cheek, and that God would handle our enemies.

First of all, i have never and will never support terror. Those are creation of evil.
I speak only from my own understanding of the quran or sufi teachings, so my "soft form of islam" may not fit the picture people have of islam.
The terrorist use a few verses in the quran to say, this is what Allah tell, us to do.
In my understanding those muslims who support or do terror, are not of islam. Islam teaches us that the battle is within our selvs, not toward others.
Force can only be enforced when someone attack, should not be used to attack others.
I am not against any human being.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
What do i mean by this?
To understand God you must look at your own actions, use of words, and your thoughts.

Why? Because if you have unwholsome actions that is wrong in Gods eyes, you can not gain the wisdom to Gods pure actions.

If your words are full of hate, swearing, greed, jealosy and do on, your mind is not empty and pure so you can not hear God when God calling your name to make you aware that you slipping away in to a life of suffering.

If your thoughts reflex your mouth with bad thoughts and bad intention, your mind can still not hear Gods calling.

Only when your action, words and thoughts has been purified can you fully hear Gods full message to you.

You become like God.

Why? Because if you have unwholsome actions that is wrong in Gods eyes, you can not gain the wisdom to Gods pure actions.

So if it's impossible to understand god using human common sense, what exactly is a person supposed to use to determine what unwholesome actions are wrong in god's eyes? Currently I use common sense to tell me that if I wouldn't want someone to do something to me then I probably shouldn't do that thing to other people. But you're saying that I can't use common sense to understand what god wants.

So how do I determine if my actions, words, and thoughts have been purified if I abandon my human common sense? What method am I supposed to use instead?
 
Top