you are already free

[ranjana]

felt bad to be derailing the enlightened person thread so much, so decided to move the last bit of the dialogue to a new thread if anyone had anything to add....

From earlier thread:



Quote from painted wolf:
why doesnt god send each person a teacher if it is their right to one?
Why doesn't god give me all the food I could eat or a world without risk of freezing or burning?
Why doesn't god give everyone freedom and peace?
The journey is what important... the goal is just something to move toward.

Quote from ranjana:
i like this debate, dont get me wrong, i think we just have fundamentally different world views. i think a teacher is an absolute blessing, and should never be taken for granted.
I believe the same thing... but I also believe that the teacher is no better than the student.

Originally Posted by painted wolf Why doesn't god give me all the food I could eat or a world without risk of freezing or burning?

i would answer that it isnt in your rights as a human being to have all the food you could eat, or to live without risk of freezing or burning.

Originally Posted by painted wolf
Why doesn't god give everyone freedom and peace?

but god does.... that is our nature even without our realization of it, god gives us freedom to choose our perception also, so we may not perceive we are free, but we are always free, even locked up in jail for life.

Originally Posted by painted wolf
The journey is what important... the goal is just something to move toward.

i agree with you; if we get caught up in a goal, then we have lost the correct vision, because all that is exists is the present moment. we only have the opportunity to act in accordance to our highest awareness in the moment, as a future state of enlightenment is just an idea that doesnt exist. hopefully we meet someone who can help stretch our capacity of awareness. or hopefully we just get it by some grace!


Originally Posted by painted wolf
I believe the same thing... but I also believe that the teacher is no better than the student.

absolutely agree with you! im not saying a teacher is better than anyone else, and is more deserving of one thing or another. equal but different.
* * *
from LuisDantas:

Originally Posted by ranjana
i would answer that it isnt in your rights as a human being to have all the food you could eat, or to live without risk of freezing or burning.

god gives us freedom to choose our perception also, so we may not perceive we are free, but we are always free, even locked up in jail for life.

You know, those are pretty good arguments against the likelyhood of existence of Abraham's God.

 

[ranjana]

well thats quite confusing! but anyway, if anyone want to comment on the role of teachers in spiritual realization or if the idea that we are already free argues against the existence of abraham's god...

:areyoucra

 

[zenzero]

Friend PW,

Quote from painted wolf:
why doesnt god send each person a teacher if it is their right to one?
Why doesn't god give me all the food I could eat or a world without risk of freezing or burning?
Why doesn't god give everyone freedom and peace?
The journey is what important... the goal is just something to move toward.

1. why doesnt god send each person a teacher if it is their right to one?
Existence is where we are and is a part of it and it itself is teaching us everyday every second through somebody and some experiences but we do not reconginze that all around what so ever we are learning from are different teachers which finally is one call it god/existence/etc.
2. Why doesn't god give me all the food I could eat or a world without risk of freezing or burning?

Without food you would not have survived to lodge your complaints here. Just eat whatever you want to, who is stopping you. Weather been cold/hot are again dualities and again that is easily controllable. monks in tibet meditate at night in the snow covered mountain. Yes for that only breath regulation is enough.
3.Why doesn't god give everyone freedom and peace?
Again without freedom, you would not have been here. Rgds peace it is all there provided you STILL your mind as the you too will be peacefully eating all your favourite food, doing nothing in the garden of eden. [which happens with me some times]
4.The journey is what important... the goal is just something to move toward.
The begining is the end in itself. The journey is till your mind thinks or else for existence, YOU are already there. Just STILL the mind and it is HERE-NOW.
YES, YOU ARE ALREADY FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Love & rgds

 

[LuisDantas]

I for one never quite understood how is it possible to believe in Abraham's God. His attributes are so supreme that they end up being self-contradictory. The classic objection to his existence is the "Problem of Evil": if God is supremely good and powerful, how is it possible for evil to exist?

Dharmic religions don't suffer as much from the same challenge, because even in its most deist forms (Sikhism, Bhakti Yoga) they are, shall we say, more pro-active. There is a focus not on claiming acceptance of God's existence, but on learning to cooperate with it. They are growth-oriented religions.

 

[ranjana]

i have to agree with you... taking the idea of god and making it into a father figure never worked for me either. sooner or later you see your once all-powerful father is anything but that.

but to me, being a free being always, is a kind of proof of god. just not abraham's god you could say.

 

[zenzero]

Friend ranjana,
The creator is creation itself.
Love & rgds

 

[painted wolf]

perhaps I should clear up...

Ranjana asked this question in regard to my point that enlightenment is a basic right:

why doesnt god send each person a teacher if it is their right to one?

I answered with my own questions:

Why doesn't god give me all the food I could eat or a world without risk of freezing or burning?
Why doesn't god give everyone freedom and peace?

I then followed up with this (my main point):

The journey is what important... the goal is just something to move toward.

God doesn't send everyone a teacher because a teacher is just one way... it isn't a necessity.

My main point still stands... I don't believe that a person who insists on being paid for their 'wisdom' is not wise... just clever.
Enlightenment is not about material gain.

wa:do

 

[ranjana]

i agree, it is all one source, and the source is the same as its expression.

but one question that could follow from my very confusing first post (!!!) is if we are already free, how do we become aware of it? and know it?

for me, its absolutely essential to be exposed to the knowledge. that is why i honor my teachers so much. could i learn this from my daily life? how could i meditate and know what i was really tuning into if no one had exposed my mind to the depths of reality?

i think knowledge is a blessing, and does not come to everyone just because it should.

 

[ranjana]

perhaps I should clear up...



My main point still stands... I don't believe that a person who insists on being paid for their 'wisdom' is not wise... just clever.
Enlightenment is not about material gain.

wa:do

THANK YOU for the point of clarity!

 

[painted wolf]

There are as many paths to freedom as there are people to walk them.
What works for you may not work for me. (and probably doesn't... I can't do meditation.)

I honor those who have taught me as well... I am ever thankful for the time we walked together.

wa:do

 

[zenzero]

Friend LD,

I for one never quite understood how is it possible to believe in Abraham's God. His attributes are so supreme that they end up being self-contradictory. The classic objection to his existence is the "Problem of Evil": if God is supremely good and powerful, how is it possible for evil to exist?

When you are One with that Abraham's God like Moses or Jesus, one cannot do anything evil of its own accord. When one has become the light itself darkness is nowhere to be seen and this is the same reason in Abrahman's version the evil is not taken into consideration as it is focusing on the LIGHT which automatically gets rid of darkness/evil that comes in its path and light is never able to see darkness face to face.
Love & rgds

 

[zenzero]

Friend ranjana,

but one question that could follow from my very confusing first post (!!!) is if we are already free, how do we become aware of it? and know it?

Through constant meditation. Meditation is the state where the mind is still and allow the mind to think when it is required for any specific task, not on its own.
In the meditative state one is merged, one is free.

One never knows that, as one can only BE in that state.
Knowing is always through the mind and in that state the mind is still and so knowing does not happen.

So, go ahead and BE IT.
It is HERE-NOW.
Love & rgds

 

[painted wolf]

Get me in the woods, with as little between me and nature and that is enough for me.

wa:do

 

[zenzero]

Friend PW,

Get me in the woods, with as little between me and nature and that is enough for me.

You are already there where you want to be; but am stating that we are part of that NATURE and existence itself.

Love & rgds

 

[ranjana]

oh cool, came back from meditation satsang, and there are some wonderful things being written about in here!

dear zenzero, but what about our life between meditation? there must be a chance to elevate our understanding of attachment and aversion and seeing what we are not (vairagya) and what we are (vivek). this raised consciousness must affect the mind? what about purifying the mind? i understand the mind will never be pure, clear, but isnt it valuable to walk in that direction?

maybe i am just an intellectual!

 

[zenzero]

Friend ranjana,
Yes, true, life is usually in between meditation.
That we know is the illusion that has to go and be conscious of it at all times.
The more we talk or discuss the more we give power to our minds to get hold of us.
We have to go through life completing and wiping out our past karma which itself is putting us in the positions we find ourselves at each moment. The moment we become conscious about it, then what ever we do that itself is HERE-NOW and becomes a meditation. Yes, surely born an human we are not perfect but we have to keep striving and in that process over that meaningless time we will reach to the timeless zone forever. We have to reach to that point on the cross where both the time meets.
This exchanges themselves are nothing but satsang.
About attachments. They are what the mind holds on to and slowly and steadily we have to uproot those things that our mind hold on to through our intellect and understanding of them.
Love & rgds

 

[UnityNow101]

Get me in the woods, with as little between me and nature and that is enough for me.

wa:do

That is certainly the way of the Native American and is why I have so much admiration for their way of life. Many are so concerned with reading specific religious books and adhering to certain dogmatic traditions, that in the process they fail to read the foremost book of God Almighty, which would be his creation and our own selves. I honestly believe that if there is a God, the surest way to find him would be to look within ourselves and at his creation found in nature. Everything else would most certainly be second-hand information that is of little use...

 

[GURSIKH]

That is certainly the way of the Native American and is why I have so much admiration for their way of life. Many are so concerned with reading specific religious books and adhering to certain dogmatic traditions, that in the process they fail to read the foremost book of God Almighty, which would be his creation and our own selves. I honestly believe that if there is a God, the surest way to find him would be to look within ourselves and at his creation found in nature. Everything else would most certainly be second-hand information that is of little use...

:clap:clap:bow::bow::yes::yes:

 

[Runewolf1973]

:clap:clap:bow::bow::yes::yes:

I'll second that! Nature is the best teacher of ALL. Thank you, UnityNow101. Not just the Native Americans, but pretty well all of the primal cultures from around the globe understood this. At one time, all of mankind was Animistic in nature. They revered the nature around them both seen and unseen. They had a much better understanding of what was really going on around them than I think most people do today. They also respected and revered their ancestors, something humans today should do. The further we look into the past, we begin to realize HOW humans became separate with separate beliefs. We learn what it was that divided us in the first place, but we also learn what steps need to be taken to get back to the UNITY and ONENESS we once ALL shared. I've never been a huge reader and have actually read extremely little with regards to different beliefs and religions, but I understand enough to know that even though we are all different, we are all the same. It is our minds and our beliefs that separate us. Set aside what you think you know or have been taught through books and acquired knowledge, for even though it is good to have that knowledge, knowledge is not everything. Look how nature is at one with itself, all the trees and animals working in perfect balance. How did they "learn" how to do this? Did they need to read books or study different religions? No. They just accept their place in existence without worry or contemplation, and just live. Remember it was Man who ate from the Tree of Knowledge. The animals ate from the Tree of Life. At one time we were the same. It is only our minds that separate us from the Garden of Eden. We are still in that Garden. That is why we are still living amongst the animals, for they did not get kicked out did they? Only our "minds" kicked us out, not "God". In "stillness of mind", or even amid the peacefulness of nature itself, we remember that Oneness. Everything that exists has a message to offer. The "Awakened Ones" know this. That is why Buddha sought the "stillness" of nature beside a tree. Trees Speak, and so does everything else. We need only remember how to "listen".

 

[GURSIKH]

RUNEWOLF -At one time, all of mankind was Animistic in nature. They revered the nature around them both seen and unseen. They had a much better understanding of what was really going on around them than I think most people do today

:bunny:olarbaby:anda::rudolph::bkcat:uppy: